Yes but not by this worthy of condemnation...we sin because we are sinners not are sinners because we sin. Babies are by nature sinners and thus will at one time when a bit older (but still very young) commit sin, but but they are not held responsible to pay the penalty for the sin Adam committed. Our sin separates us from God, not someone else's, before then they are not separate from God.
How Does A Baby Sin???
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Yes but not by this worthy of condemnation...we sin because we are sinners not are sinners because we sin. Babies are by nature sinners and thus will at one time when a bit older (but still very young) commit sin, but but they are not held responsible to pay the penalty for the sin Adam committed. Our sin separates us from God, not someone else's, before then they are not separate from God.
Exactly. Is that not what I wrote?
Why is this even a discussion? This was also talked about in another thread.
Where there is no law, Sin is not imputed. A simple scripture answer the question.
Children are under the law of the Parents, not the laws of God. Tons of scripture about Chidren obeying parents, and things happening to children because the parents did not obey.
ZERO scripture saying children are responsible before God in any way, shape or form.
And yes, we can't come up with a number........ But God did give an age of what He considerds accountable.........
That is also in scriptures...........
How Does A Baby Sin???
This question confirms the Biblical commandment to repent, and then to be baptized by full immersion [and then to be baptized in the Holy Spirit].
Here the New Testament is indicating that repentance is of an age where a person has understanding to make a choice to believe in the gospel and to confess their faith. Babies under two cannot repent. Most toddlers would not have the wherewithal to repent and accept the Gospel independently. Oh yeah, they can be naughty, but they need to be taught how to be good and what is acceptable behaviour. No easy task. As children become older in age more responsibility for their actions can be attributed to them (and a child grows in understanding of the own behaviour and choices under good parenting).
In the Revival Fellowship we generally do not water baptize young people below the age of 16 years. This is because to make this decision/commitment to become a true Christian has dire consequences if rashly made, and then abandoned.
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Hebrews 10: 38-39
This question confirms the Biblical commandment to repent, and then to be baptized by full immersion [and then to be baptized in the Holy Spirit].
Here the New Testament is indicating that repentance is of an age where a person has understanding to make a choice to believe in the gospel and to confess their faith. Babies under two cannot repent. Most toddlers would not have the wherewithal to repent and accept the Gospel independently. Oh yeah, they can be naughty, but they need to be taught how to be good and what is acceptable behaviour. No easy task. As children become older in age more responsibility for their actions can be attributed to them (and a child grows in understanding of the own behaviour and choices under good parenting).
In the Revival Fellowship we generally do not water baptize young people below the age of 16 years. This is because to make this decision/commitment to become a true Christian has dire consequences if rashly made, and then abandoned.
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Hebrews 10: 38-39
So very true. The more I learn the more I realize I know nothing. The more I learn the word of God the more I see men's ideas about God and the damage they do. While some find it easy to see God as Abba (Daddy) I always saw Him as an unyielding Father. I knew it was wrong, but I could not divorce my experience of a physical father with that of the scripturally portrayed Father. Pastors and Sunday School teachers with their own demons reinforced this Zeus stereotype. How many quote Job and blame God for their ills and woes. How hard it is to see the all-powerful God not show mercy when sin avails itself to its victim.
The beginning of my repentance (change of mind) towards God began when I read the entire book of Job in one sitting. Job was affected. His "friends" came to correct him of his sin. Job stood fast in his self-righteousness. Then a young man came on the scene; Elihu ("He is my God") son of Barachel ("God Blesses") the Buzite ("contempt) of the family of Ram ("exalted"). Names given in the scriptures speak volumes. Elihu called Job out. Job blamed God for his woes. When did God do evil to Job? Job like us all say we know God but when do we come to the repented realization that God is love. For Him to do us evil is to make Him evil. When Job realized this, he said:
Job 42:5 (KJV)
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
To all I say: While asking these kinds of questions may serve some purpose, the speculations of what God would do is to assume one to be God. Faith. Faith is all that we need. To know God's love is to dismiss any conversation that would speak ill of the loving Father of heaven. The devil stirs up questions like this just like he did to Eve: Yea hath God said... it dispenses curious doubt upon our Creator.
Can a man determine where another will go after death? No. Can then we determine that at age X a child is held accountable? Nay! To ask these kinds of questions only invites judgement upon God. Our ministry here on earth is to reconcile man with God, to be fishers of men for God. Sometimes I believe we have too much scripture. Have faith in God and in His abilities to do you well, turn your tickling ears, and see, see His good will.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9
Even though sin is not imputed where there is no law, that does not mean there was no death, in fact death still reined from Adam to Moses.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
No one needs to be taught how to sin, as it comes natural to every person born on planet earth no matter at what age.
Sin is so hideous that those who are infected by it do not even know it. It is totally undetectable, which is why so many people do not think they are sinners.
For God to be able to reach man God gave the "law" so that all the world would know that we are all sinners and have need of a savior.
The Apostle Paul gives us a look at the hideousness of sin.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul at one point in his life thought every thing was OK until the commandment (law) came. Since sin is the transgression of the law, it would take the law to expose sin to the person to whom is infected by it. Even though every human being is infected by sin, it's exsposer comes only after the law is known to that person. This does not mean they never had sin to begin with, it only reveals to that person the disease they did not know they had.
Sin lays dormant in the life of all people, but it comes back to life after the Gospel is heard. The word, "revived" in Romans 7:9 means "to raise from the dead" When a person is infected by sin, that sin in them does not need to do anything else because you are already dead!
The Gospel reveals to man sin in all people. Have you ever noticed when witnessing to a person, even though they might be the most polite people you have ever met, how they seem to change once you begin speaking the Word of God to them? It seems like they looking for any excuse to leave, to get away from you. You know why that is? Because the sin in them is coming back to life to fight against hearing the Word which reveals to them the error of their ways.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
No one needs to be taught how to sin, as it comes natural to every person born on planet earth no matter at what age.
Sin is so hideous that those who are infected by it do not even know it. It is totally undetectable, which is why so many people do not think they are sinners.
For God to be able to reach man God gave the "law" so that all the world would know that we are all sinners and have need of a savior.
The Apostle Paul gives us a look at the hideousness of sin.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul at one point in his life thought every thing was OK until the commandment (law) came. Since sin is the transgression of the law, it would take the law to expose sin to the person to whom is infected by it. Even though every human being is infected by sin, it's exsposer comes only after the law is known to that person. This does not mean they never had sin to begin with, it only reveals to that person the disease they did not know they had.
Sin lays dormant in the life of all people, but it comes back to life after the Gospel is heard. The word, "revived" in Romans 7:9 means "to raise from the dead" When a person is infected by sin, that sin in them does not need to do anything else because you are already dead!
The Gospel reveals to man sin in all people. Have you ever noticed when witnessing to a person, even though they might be the most polite people you have ever met, how they seem to change once you begin speaking the Word of God to them? It seems like they looking for any excuse to leave, to get away from you. You know why that is? Because the sin in them is coming back to life to fight against hearing the Word which reveals to them the error of their ways.
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I wouldn't confuse sinfulness with accountability. Babies try to master their parents from day dot.
"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes
But little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes."
'From away in a manger'
I guess the people who compiled these lyrics saw the contrast.
Jesus turned water into wine, a baby turns a 1/2 pint of milk into a gallon of water.
"The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes
But little Lord Jesus, no crying He makes."
'From away in a manger'
I guess the people who compiled these lyrics saw the contrast.
Jesus turned water into wine, a baby turns a 1/2 pint of milk into a gallon of water.
Pretty much.
Well, that is pretty Amazing. Someone on the planet read Job knowing that God is Love as the doctrine to use to understand Job.
Don't find that very often, for I read all the Word of God with the Doctrine that God is good, and there is no evil in Him.
You must want to do the will of God for God to open your eyes to such books as Job. As it is Written, those who will do the will of my Father will know of sound doctrine.
God had ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, to do with what happened to Job. Eliu said............ Man is rewarded by his own works, God will not do unjustly, commit wickedness, nor pervert his Word (Judgement)
giving permisson to a demonic (Disobedient) spirit to murder the children of a man that served God is pure EVIL in my book. I know the difference between good and evil. (Heb 6) Some believers think it's perfectly OK to have Children murdered and make people sick, taking all they have. Only when it comes to talking about scriptures, if someone murders their children then it's a whole different attitude.
We know exactly what Job did, and Why God had to step aside not giving permission, but responding to the Devils request that God himself should harm Job, God said........ NOPE, He is in your power, I am not touching Job. Then again God saying, NO, stop trying to get me to harm Job, it's without any purpose or cause.
God certainly had no plan for Job to go through all he did.
As for you wondering about children......... I said God gave the answer to that, and even gave an age. It's in Numbers 14... read it then compare Heb 11.
Children are under the Curse as Death does reign, but protected by the believing parent (Physically)
If the Parent does not believe, then they are not protected, but that does not exclude them from the promised land, a heaven to come.
This is another one of those "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" topics.
Let God figure it out. What we need to do is just preach the gospel, teach holiness, and remember that God is as merciful as possible and as just as necessary. Only the heathen gods mentioned in scripture would send babies into the flames. The one true God "is not willing that anyone perish" and would never be less just and compassionate than his creatures. Only Satan exercises raw sovereignty in a moral vacuum. And if we, "though we are evil, know to do good, then how much more your Father in heaven?"
God is not Zeus, sitting in heaven poised to throw lightning bolts at the first hint of sin. He who counts the hairs on our heads and knows when a sparrow falls to the ground, will certainly not charge babies, or the mentally incompetent, with rebellion.
Let God figure it out. What we need to do is just preach the gospel, teach holiness, and remember that God is as merciful as possible and as just as necessary. Only the heathen gods mentioned in scripture would send babies into the flames. The one true God "is not willing that anyone perish" and would never be less just and compassionate than his creatures. Only Satan exercises raw sovereignty in a moral vacuum. And if we, "though we are evil, know to do good, then how much more your Father in heaven?"
God is not Zeus, sitting in heaven poised to throw lightning bolts at the first hint of sin. He who counts the hairs on our heads and knows when a sparrow falls to the ground, will certainly not charge babies, or the mentally incompetent, with rebellion.
That would be true if God had not plainly given us the answer to the question. Amazing what is in scripture we don't see yet.
God also gave the age.
So, before we go speculating saying....... "WE DON'T KNOW!!!" reading scriptures just might help. You say God certainly won't charge babies, but where is your scripture? Jesus was talking to those who knew God, what if the Parents of the children don't know God? what if the Children don't know God, then what? We just don't guess we go find the answer.
1) Man was accounting for seeing those things God did "MANY TIMES" yet they did not hearken to them and were full of unbelief.
Man is responsible for what He see's from the Lord.
Num 14:22 kjva Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Jesus said, "At least believe me for the Works sake"
2) Those "MEN" are then singled out who ignored all God did, and were full of unbelief except for the Men who did not.
Num 14:23-24 kjva 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
3) The land God sware to their fathers, the promised land, the good land. God told Abraham that his Seed shall be as the stars, and that he would bring the people out to the promise land. (Gen 15:13-14)
Heb 11:8-13 kjva 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
4) This promised land, the land of Milk and Honey was earthly. A shadow of what was to come, a house built by God in the Heavenly. God is dealing with Israel because of their unbelief, they did not see that promised land. Just like today, unbelief will keep many out of Heaven to come.
What did God say concerning the Children of those unbelieving parents though?
Num 14:29-31 kjva 29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, 30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
God said, those twenty years old and upward which murmured against me, are accountable................. They will die.
God said, even though the parents said their own kids would be pray, despite them siding against me, your little ones............
WILL I BRING IN TO THE LAND OF PROMISE.
19 and younger, God brought into the promise land. The sign of a place in Heaven to come.
God has not changed, nor does He ever change.
By Faith, I'm not saying "we don't know"; we do... God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked, and certainly babies are not wicked. Of course, many believe that God hates certain "unchosen" babies, but the bulk of scripture makes it plain that God "is not willing that any should perish".
Regarding your numbered list: Babies have not seen the Lord's glory, nor can they be charged with rebellion or failure to believe what they understood. Your citation of Num. 14:22 is quite out of context, which was the fact that the people (adults) who SAW what God did to the Egyptians still rebelled.
So nothing in all that list is relevant to whether babies sin. You admit that the age of twenty was God's "age of accountability", but this thread has nothing to do with anyone that old. These "little ones" were up to the age of nineteen!
Nothing you said refutes anything I said.
And experience has taught me not to expend a lot of effort with people who resort to large, all-caps, or colored text to shout instead of "reason together".
Regarding your numbered list: Babies have not seen the Lord's glory, nor can they be charged with rebellion or failure to believe what they understood. Your citation of Num. 14:22 is quite out of context, which was the fact that the people (adults) who SAW what God did to the Egyptians still rebelled.
So nothing in all that list is relevant to whether babies sin. You admit that the age of twenty was God's "age of accountability", but this thread has nothing to do with anyone that old. These "little ones" were up to the age of nineteen!
Nothing you said refutes anything I said.
And experience has taught me not to expend a lot of effort with people who resort to large, all-caps, or colored text to shout instead of "reason together".
I was not refruting what you said, and the caps part are what "I" considered the import part of the scriptures.
Sin is not in the equation, because according to God, those children were not under any law 19 and younger, but the parents took blame.
If there is no law, no light, no understanding, then sin is not accounted.
So, God brings the child into the promise land, despite any consideration of sin, but by His own spiritual law.
The question of a child sinning is not important as all children are carnal and selfish creatures only thinking of the now and themselves.
My point was that there is scriptures, instead of speculations. There is a specific number God gave that answer the question.
Now as for the law of sin and death, once again the child is not responsible before God, but the parent to keep the child safe and alive.
There are lots of scriptures for that also.
Sorry if you did not care for the Bold letters or caps.
If you know anything about forums, people tend to just skim through until something catches their eye. That is the nature of a lazy person not interested in anything else someone has to say, but at least by studies their eye will stop and read the bold since it's easy and skim to the next bold.
This way those that just come here will at least see the scripture and get the point without all the details.
All caps would be a different story. We are not just writing for one person here. Tons visit these forums and never sign up.
Fair enough. But all caps is considered shouting, and it makes many people skip over it too. There is no need to try and get the attention of "lazy" people anyway. Those who are worth your time will read, and those who aren't really interested in conversation will not. This is common internet practice, not my personal pet peeve. You might consider underlining or bold for emphasis.
All caps on the internet is by culture world wide not accepted and troll like.
So, on a place where you want a person to get understanding, and to help them as they don't take time to read most of what we say, but just skim and draw quick conclusions, I will use "Caps" that are short to stop the person and to at least get them to read the caps part.
My goal is to get understanding across, annoying or not, getting their attention is what is important.
You will find folks give a scriptural answer to something and pages later folks are still guessing even though the answer was given pages back.
That is because folks don't start and don't consider what you said or anyone else said pages back.
If CAPS can grab their attention, then the goal is achieved.
God clearly said 19 or younger, they He will bring to the promise land. God has ever changed, He will bring them in.
I posted further back that the answer was in scripture, but nobody read it or cared. They still wanted to continue guessing.
So lots of times I try to find out if anyone really cares to know an answer, sometimes they ask, sometimes they don't.
but you can grab someones attention even though they ignored most of your post.
The city of Chicago is a wonderful city full of angels that go back and forth day and night looking for crime to stop. One thing for certain is that these opposing forces of good and evil started from way back before the earth was even made. These forces were divided into groups
AND JESUS IS SATAN'S BROTHER.
The split happend in the great break up reformation when God set the ion stone
Now they may skip the boring parts but the caps, "Jesus is Satan's" brother might make some go back and try to fathom how that conclusion was derived by the author.
In this case, it's all nonsense no matter what conclusion you come to.
Thank you for you time. Agree or not, it's why at times I might use short caps in a teaching settin.