How The Devil/satan Deceiveth The Whole World

[TezriLi]

Been sitting here with this page open, the vibrator humming on my back, thinking, "Should I try to write or put this off a bit longer?" I think I will put it off a little longer, but I do want to mention a few things:

First, Bro. Paul, thank you so much for praying for me. That is SO appreciated.

Second, I admit that it is very frustrating to me for people to confront those who choose to worship on Sunday instead of Sabbath. It appears to be harassment, and it is irritating. I can understand discussing this issue, debating this issue, but arguing, accusing, and damning people helps no one. Maybe I read more into those posts than what was really there.

When someone does not know about these things, great! Inform them. But here, it is obvious that most know what the Scriptures say about these issues. What positive thing does arguing do? Are we the H Spirit, that we are capable of convicting? Write what needs to be written, walk away, and be nice! Oh, that is probably a ridiculous request.

 

[Mitspa]

You know every lie that a person accepts, every rejection of the Word of Grace, is protected by the pride of man, that pride that dwells in the flesh of all. The Lord dealt with folks as they came to Him. To the humble, He became as a servant and gave grace to all. To those in pride (self-righteousness) and hypocrisy, He became a unmovable force before them and even used their own words to show they did not really know God. He rebuked in the strongest terms those who was under the allusion of their own ability to keep the law, so at some point they might come to Him alone as the source of righteousness. This pride that rejects grace, is what destroys a person and a true minister of God often is called to confront this pride, so that it might lose its power over those held captive in it.

 

[Brother Paul]

Been sitting here with this page open, the vibrator humming on my back, thinking, "Should I try to write or put this off a bit longer?" I think I will put it off a little longer, but I do want to mention a few things:

First, Bro. Paul, thank you so much for praying for me. That is SO appreciated.

Second, I admit that it is very frustrating to me for people to confront those who choose to worship on Sunday instead of Sabbath. It appears to be harassment, and it is irritating. I can understand discussing this issue, debating this issue, but arguing, accusing, and damning people helps no one. Maybe I read more into those posts than what was really there.

When someone does not know about these things, great! Inform them. But here, it is obvious that most know what the Scriptures say about these issues. What positive thing does arguing do? Are we the H Spirit, that we are capable of convicting? Write what needs to be written, walk away, and be nice! Oh, that is probably a ridiculous request.

The Lord bless you, and keep you: The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace...

In His love

Paul

 

[TezriLi]

Okay. I have decided to try this. It's just that when I write what I believe, it upsets some. I am a pleaser -- I admit it. It is hard to cause others tension. I would rather make people smile.

. . . Tans point has been that we Christians are somehow incorrect/wrong/or in violation of God's commands if we worship the Lord on the 1st day as opposed to on the 7th day Sabbath or that "Sunday" is "the Day of the Sun"....when we worship the Lord everyday of the week....we only gather "in one place" (like as in we should go to church or synagogue) the 1st day as it is what we were given to do (As taught the earliest church by the Apostles)

You see, I would disagree with this.

...God never commanded to do this on the 7th day...convocate yes and indeed to rest and focus on Him not the world (for Israel, yes, make it Holy as He has made it Holy), but even the Leviticus passage you quote in verse 33 says "in all your dwellings"....local, personal, and plural...is this not the word?

And with this.

The Tanakh does not define a particular "day" for everyone to gather and hold a community worship service...do you agree?

No.

And listen, I have attended on the 7th day many times it is just not YHVH's Mitzvot...but now we are "in Messiah", Shiloh (a person, but the place where the Shekinah dwells, where God is with us) has come, and His shabbat is glorious just as the Tanakh promised it would be. This does not change the weekly Shabbat covenanted with Israel, but only its meaning and application, which is now for the whole world...the whole world is being called now to rest in Messiah. We no longer strive (as beautiful as these are) in ordinances and duties to be made right with God, we have been made right in Him by Him and we enter into this grace (like father Abraham) through faith...it is His doing and it is marvellous in our eyes, but who has believed our report? Shalom.

Okay. I would still disagree. With regard to this paragraph, Paul, there is no striving for me. None. I love the Torah and its teachings, and I love the observances, which teach me more yearly about our L-rd. If my trust was not in Messiah, I could understand that people strive to be perfect, work to gain salvation, etc. But when one does Torah because that one is free to do Torah, it is not striving.

 

[TezriLi]

I agree! And indeed this was the covenant He made with Israel and it is/was to be kept perpetually through all generations, though He had never made this as part of a commitment for any of their fathers or with the gentiles, and is nowhere commanded in the New Covenant writings...observing the Sabbath now is still a beautiful and blessed thing to do (which I am sure the Lord is honored by) but even that was not required upon the gentiles (just like it was not required upon Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, his kids, etc.)...

Again, I would disagree that G-d did not make this covenant with all those dwelling in Israel. The Bible says He did.

But when one imposes it as a necessary practice for salvation I then have to ask, if one claims it "the law" we are bound to, then why do so many (Adventists, 7th day Baptists, Christadelphians) keep it differently and with aspect that violate the Torah Sabbath yet believe they are fulfilling the law?

But G-d says that the one thing necessary for salvation is faith given by Him for salvation. Nowhere does the Bible say that one is saved by keeping Torah, from Genesis through Revelation! I would never write or think that, and I would never think it of others.

If the basis of their insistence is "obeying the Lord" then why do they not do it His way? I mean, to do God's thing Your own way and not the way He specifically commanded changes it from Yah's way to Your way...if one requires the keeping of the law for salvation then according to the Bible they must keep the whole of the law (and that means the way God said to do it...but Hallelujah we are saved ONLY by grace and that through faith, Amen?)

Paul

I cannot answer for anyone other than myself. I see many doing Torah "the L-rd's way" all the time, and throughout history: there has been a remnant who have trusted the L-rd, doing Torah "the L-rd's way." We have no Temple, so obviously, we can only practice doing some of the things which require the Temple, but G-d is not surprised by that.

 

[TezriLi]

I love to see the "old" being brought into the "NEW"....I hate to see the "new" being dragged back into the "OLD"...

Okay, Watch Tower. Believe me, I have not been dragged back into anything "old." But I am curious: do you know who divided the Scriptures into two groups, the "old" and the "new"? Do you know about him? It was one book, undivided, before him. Because of him, some have even gone so far as to call these divisions the "old covenant" and the "new covenant," which is very interesting to me, because the biblical new covenant in Jeremiah has not yet been technically activated.

Ga 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Well, Mitspa, I'm not a Galatian and am not even similar. I am curious: why do you think the Scriptures give some the freedom to not do Torah, but you do not think the same Scriptures give me the freedom to do Torah? Where does the Word say I should not do Torah?

 

[Mitspa]

Okay, Watch Tower. Believe me, I have not been dragged back into anything "old." But I am curious: do you know who divided the Scriptures into two groups, the "old" and the "new"? Do you know about him? It was one book, undivided, before him. Because of him, some have even gone so far as to call these divisions the "old covenant" and the "new covenant," which is very interesting to me, because the biblical new covenant in Jeremiah has not yet been technically activated.


Well, Mitspa, I'm not a Galatian and am not even similar. I am curious: why do you think the Scriptures give some the freedom to not do Torah, but you do not think the same Scriptures give me the freedom to do Torah? Where does the Word say I should not do Torah?

Yes the OLD was fulfilled in Christ and His Cross and the NEW was written in His blood...and if we used the excuse that the Word of God is not written directly to us.. as "Galatians" or Romans etc...then we would have to reject all scripture, now wouldn't we?

And I might add with as much kindness as this can be said, you are NOT keeping the law and its true standard no matter what you might believe about your own righteousness and ability to do so!

 

[TezriLi]

Yes the OLD was fulfilled in Christ and His Cross and the NEW was written in His blood...and if we used the excuse that the Word of God is not written directly to us.. as "Galatians" or Romans etc...then we would have to reject all scripture, now wouldn't we?

Okay. I understand that a lot of people believe this, but I don't.

 

[TezriLi]

Oh, and by the way, I am sorry I wrote anything about your pictures you have been using. Actually, I have enjoyed them -- all of them. They keep me on my toes. I admit, however, that I like this latest one best.

 

[Mitspa]

Okay. I understand that a lot of people believe this, but I don't.

Well then your NOT really a New Testament believer, and you are rejecting the gospel that Paul declared was the gospel by which all men and women would be judged and pronounced a curse upon anyone who taught anything different than his gospel. I don't mean to be harsh but just honest.

 

[TezriLi]

Well then your NOT really a New Testament believer, and you are rejecting the gospel that Paul declared was the gospel by which all men and women would be judged and pronounced a curse upon anyone who taught anything different than his gospel. I don't mean to be harsh but just honest.

And I don't take it as harsh, Mitspa: we just disagree. I love Paul the Apostle's writings. I have sent a few requests ahead for the World to Come:
1. To be able to play both the trumpet and piano
2. To be able to dance
3. To spend a couple hundred years in a class in which Paul teaches



My understanding of Paul is that he was a good, educated Jew; that he kept Torah throughout his life, after meeting our Messiah, when he was free to do so; that he would never condemn anyone for keeping Torah but would, instead, encourage keeping Torah.

 

[Mitspa]

And I don't take it as harsh, Mitspa: we just disagree. I love Paul the Apostle's writings. I have sent a few requests ahead for the World to Come:
1. To be able to play both the trumpet and piano
2. To be able to dance
3. To spend a couple hundred years in a class in which Paul teaches



My understanding of Paul is that he was a good, educated Jew; that he kept Torah throughout his life, after meeting our Messiah, when he was free to do so; that he would never condemn anyone for keeping Torah but would, instead, encourage keeping Torah.

Well I guess that depends on what you mean by the term "keep" and what one means by the word "Torah"...the Law of Moses is "every jot and tittle'' ..to the "letter" which kills... there is no washed down version of the law that is acceptable to God, in fact that dishonors the law and its intended purpose before God.

 

[TezriLi]

Well I guess that depends on what you mean by the term "keep" and what one means by the word "Torah"...the Law of Moses is "every jot and tittle'' ..to the "letter" which kills... there is no washed down version of the law that is acceptable to God, in fact that dishonors the law and its intended purpose before God.

Do you want to discuss this, or should I leave it alone?

 

[Brother Paul]

Do you know about him? It was one book, undivided, before him. Because of him, some have even gone so far as to call these divisions the "old covenant" and the "new covenant," which is very interesting to me, because the biblical new covenant in Jeremiah has not yet been technically activated.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke,though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write iton their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this was and is accomplished through the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah Y'shua (the Lord's salvation)....this is the New Covenant...Jew and Gentile one new man (a new creature...an eternal being after the order of the last Adam) in Messiah....in His hand the stick (shebbet) of Judah and the stick (shebbet) of Israel is made one....He has fulfilled all the law and we who are born of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh are IN HIM. Those of the Judah-ites that still insist on following the law (cannot keep it all) will be judged by the law. The OLD has passed away, behold all has become NEW. What God wants us to do is written in us and we do it. Israel/Ephraim is sown in among the gentiles (the melo' ha'goyim of Genesis 48...the fulness of the gentiles) see also

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…
Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

All of Judah in Christ is called the natural vine, Isrsael is they who were broken off, and the gentiles of faith are the wild branch grafted in...as the gentiles come in we bring with us and within us the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[TezriLi]

I had written: "It was one book, undivided, before him. Because of him, some have even gone so far as to call these divisions the "old covenant" and the "new covenant," which is very interesting to me, because the biblical new covenant in Jeremiah has not yet been technically activated."

And this was and is accomplished through the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah Y'shua (the Lord's salvation)....this is the New Covenant...Jew and Gentile one new man (a new creature...an eternal being after the order of the last Adam) in Messiah....in His hand the stick (shebbet) of Judah and the stick (shebbet) of Israel is made one....He has fulfilled all the law and we who are born of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh are IN HIM. Those of the Judah-ites that still insist on following the law (cannot keep it all) will be judged by the law. The OLD has passed away, behold all has become NEW. What God wants us to do is written in us and we do it. Israel/Ephraim is sown in among the gentiles (the melo' ha'goyim of Genesis 48...the fulness of the gentiles) see also

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…
Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

All of Judah in Christ is called the natural vine, Isrsael is they who were broken off, and the gentiles of faith are the wild branch grafted in...as the gentiles come in we bring with us and within us the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I recognize that some teach this, but Paul, Jeremiah says, “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." When, since Jeremiah was written, has a covenant been made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"? Also, this is not a covenant with anyone other than "the house of Israel and the house of Judah." That is very interesting.

And when did this happen: "33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Is the Covenant "on their hearts" already? Is He truly in every one of the hearts of Judah and Israel? Do they all "know" our G-d?

 

[Mitspa]

Do you want to discuss this, or should I leave it alone?

Well I like you and I can be somewhat direct about this issue. I don't want to offend you, but I would like to convert you..

Maybe my Bro Paul would be better suited to this task, he has a vast knowledge and understanding of where you are and what issues you might have from accepting the harder truths of the New Covenant...I will watch and maybe chime in from time to time?

 

[TezriLi]

Well I like you and I can be somewhat direct about this issue. I don't want to offend you, but I would like to convert you..

Maybe my Bro Paul would be better suited to this task, he has a vast knowledge and understanding of where you are and what issues you might have from accepting the harder truths of the New Covenant...I will watch and maybe chime in from time to time?

Ah, you're sweet. Sounds like a plan!

 

[Brother Paul]

When, since Jeremiah was written, has a covenant been made "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"?

Is the Covenant "on their hearts" already? Is He truly in every one of the hearts of Judah and Israel? Do they all "know" our G-d?

This is the covenant, that if you place your faith in the Lord’s provision (which is His chosen redeemer – starting in Genesis 3:15) then you shall be saved. Of course this does not refer to ALL physically Israelites or Judah-ites but those who were awaiting this Messiah (the weeks of years having passed) were of Israel and Judah (the first 5 or 10 thousand followers were Israelites and many, many, more since). It is written that in His hand they would become one again, but I believe that they are one as Messiah-folk! So is He truly (even just as they know YHVH) in the hearts of EVERY ONE of Judah and Israel? NO, He NEVER was…do they ALL know God? No! Because all are not truly Israel in whom God prevails, but merely ethnically or by tradition only. The real Israel of God is spiritually Israel. Those in Messiah do all know God.

The covenant at Horeb was a covenant about physical blessing and physical curses and the hinge pin was the keeping of the whole of the law (which God foreknew would not be possible to keep). Deuteronomy 28 is a summation of what God had in that covenant offered to them. It was about the land and about being materially blessed in their barns, their offspring, and their bodies.

But all that, was to drive them, when they failed, into His grace….so that they would fall on their face admitting their short comings and turn to Him, relying on Him only (not on their works of righteousness or those times wherein they had kept it all), and cleaving to Him alone for their hope and their provision, and for their righteousness and their salvation, but they would not (just read through Kings and Chronicles).

This new covenant is not about what we should or should not do but about what God has done for us in bruising the head of Satan and atoning for our sins in Messiah Jesus, by making Him the sin-offering (Isaiah 53)) by which sin, sickness, and death are being overcome and we are made into a new creature (born of His Spirit). It is not about the land and immediate temporal physical blessings (see Deuteronomy 28) it is about getting into the Kingdom of God and having all our sin remised (thus not having to suffer what we call the second death, expulsion from the presence of God for eternity) so we can ever be in His presence. Without the remission of sins one cannot enter the Kingdom of God (Isaiah 59:2) but will remain eternally separate.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Hebrews 2:14-15)

And to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling... (Hebrews 12:24)

…that he might sanctify the people with his own blood... (Hebrews 13:12)

(read Hebrews 10)

I hope this helped

Paul

 

[TezriLi]

Hi, Paul. I haven't read your whole post yet -- just the first lines. But this is what the Jeremiah Scripture says, my emphasis: 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." This prophecy has not yet been completely fulfilled. And this prophecy is to Judah and Israel. G-d never made a a covenant with any goyim, except for those who had established themselves with Israel.

Thank you for your response. Let me tell you why I come and go here. My husband is away and this little mouse is playing. I have some physical problems that prevent full nights' sleep, so I'm often tired -- worn out. I sleep every time I get a chance, and while my husband is away, I am getting as many sleep-installments as possible. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

 

[Brother Paul]

Cool but I am not going to continue with this anyway because we are derailing the thread, but I would love anytime to converse about it more on a separate thread...and after this last comment I will let you get last word...when you are awake and ready.

I do believe this covenant is and was offered first to Israel/Judah but the lamb whose blood sealed that covenant was also intended to be a light unto the gentiles...and yes there is a sense in which in the end times (when for us the pierced one comes again) all will know Him, all Israel (which includes the Judah-ites or Jews) will be saved, and because of His effectual redemptive assignment their remissed sins will be remembered no more.

Now finally, Noah was not Jewish nor was he an Israelite, but the LORD made a covenant with him (because of faith not the law of Horeb), Abraham was not Jewish nor an Israelite, and the same applies to him (because of faith), and likewise with Isaac who was also neither Jewish nor Israelite, and so with Jacob who himself became Israel. Now generally Rabbinical Judaism has always considered any who are not Israelite to be goyim...in all their ancient writings (and I am very familiar with many of them), there are two peoples (and do not get me wrong, this is word based), but GOd had promised salvation would be extended to the goy as well, so God has and can establish covenant with gentiles (non-Israelites) and the examples I provided show this to be true.

So after this I am moving on, but anytime if you wish it, I would love to explore all/any of this with you in a thread or via e-mail or whatever you choose...God be willing...

In His love

Paul