What would a book by "Bullinger" do for us that the Bible written by God won't do????
I am just saying that what could possibly be said that would be more enlightening?
It just dosen't seem that difficult to me.
How Was Saul Saved Or Where Did Grace Begin ??
- Thread starter dan p
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What would a book by "Bullinger" do for us that the Bible written by God won't do????
I am just saying that what could possibly be said that would be more enlightening?
It just dosen't seem that difficult to me.
Xian Pugilist
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Probably help us have a better understanding of the language, so you would know that what you read of someone elses interpretation, was capturing the gist of what was said.
For example, people are committed to that word perfect, telieos in Greek, means the Utopian perfect that it means in american english today. When it means entirely different. That book may help one of those people get straight.
Or that word SARX, literally flesh, used by Paul in a metaphor for what NIV accurately describes as a sinful nature. IF it was literally the fleshly bodies as a huge chunk of people insist, then PAUL was a skeleton with no flesh, and still alive and preaching.
So, reading the BIBLE, isn't the same as getting a bat phone message from God. Every heretic you know, reads the bible, God's message and can ask you the same question.
For example, people are committed to that word perfect, telieos in Greek, means the Utopian perfect that it means in american english today. When it means entirely different. That book may help one of those people get straight.
Or that word SARX, literally flesh, used by Paul in a metaphor for what NIV accurately describes as a sinful nature. IF it was literally the fleshly bodies as a huge chunk of people insist, then PAUL was a skeleton with no flesh, and still alive and preaching.
So, reading the BIBLE, isn't the same as getting a bat phone message from God. Every heretic you know, reads the bible, God's message and can ask you the same question.
dan p, You seem to have taken a defensive that is not necessary. Of course the article is important, but in Greek grammar, it is only necessary/important to avoid confusion......I think I pointed that out already? By way of example:
In speaking of our home lands , I might say "I live in Australia." The noun (Australia) is there and yet there is no need for me to use the article. You might say "I live in the United States of America". (My assumption) Note the automatic inclusion of the article. ( I don't mean this as an English grammar tutorial by the way) However in Greek You might just say "I live in United States of America". OK bad English, but Greek looks at it a logical statement that passes muster because there can be no confusion over which land mass or federation of peoples to which you are associated.
But let's get back on track. I have no more desire to derail your thread topic than you do.
I asked for a clarification of your post, not to drag you down, not to be contentious, but just simply to gain a better understanding of what you are saying.
so, ????
my 25 minute for editing window has closed..............nuts!The case in point is/was that there is only one Holy Spirit. Do you know of several others whereby there could be some confusion? No, of course not! So in Greek, logically speaking there is no need to differentiate Holy Spirit from any others since there are no others. Greek is a logical language whereas English is a study in illogicalness.
Proof of the pudding would be that you yourself knew exactly who it is being discussed by Ananias in Acts 9:17.
You weren't asking which Holy Spirit was Saul to be filled with.....no need......you did not need the inclusion of the article to clear up any confusion.
Back to a clarification of your use of the word BAPTIZO apparently in connection with the Acts 9 passage. Again, I'm not trying to tear you down, I simply seek to understand your point/s better.
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Calvin.........did you study Greek????
You seem to have a real good working ability with it.
Thanks Major; I try to help where I can.
I have studied Greek, I'm fairly rusty, and as a matter of fact now that I'm retired I hope to recover and expand on my little bit of knowledge. I should say though that I am not a University lecturer, but I do appreciate that there is a lot to be gained by an above average knowledge of how it all works.
Agreed my friend. From what you say, we are pretty much in the same pot.
When he said the word "Lord"
Wow!!!! The heart of grace is to impart it to the hearers by our conversations being seasoned with the same.
One thing i find quite often in boards is a lot of personal agendas, of which i have found myself guilty of in the past also.
But the fact is that none of the exploits described in both the ot and nt were possible without the manifold grace of God, from the least to the greatest.
Grace is the main catalyst behind each breath we take.
Grace is what gave Noah faith to agree with God that the world would be flooded by something called rain which he'd never seen or even heard of.
It was by God's grace Peter received witness from the Holy Spirit that Jesus was/is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
It's ALL grace, and that is why it is to bring judgment on oneself to insult even the Spirit of grace.
It's always been grace that saves. It was God's grace that saved Noah and his family from the flood and it the same grace that is saving me!
Blessings
One thing i find quite often in boards is a lot of personal agendas, of which i have found myself guilty of in the past also.
But the fact is that none of the exploits described in both the ot and nt were possible without the manifold grace of God, from the least to the greatest.
Grace is the main catalyst behind each breath we take.
Grace is what gave Noah faith to agree with God that the world would be flooded by something called rain which he'd never seen or even heard of.
It was by God's grace Peter received witness from the Holy Spirit that Jesus was/is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
It's ALL grace, and that is why it is to bring judgment on oneself to insult even the Spirit of grace.
It's always been grace that saves. It was God's grace that saved Noah and his family from the flood and it the same grace that is saving me!
Blessings
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Josh, very concise answer, I would change call, to felt, but its very much pedantics and you are dead on.
Servant, you too are dead on. I get in trouble saying its not Christ's blood that saves us. I have to drive that point home, because some people actually idolize the cross and His blood, and lose sight of the Christ in all the hoopla.
The blood doesn't force God to forgive us. The only reason it will forgive us, is God said it would, and He will keep His promise. With that in mind, think on this... that means Christ suffered the shame, the pain, the anguish, and knew it didn't have to be. That it only was causing a symbolic sacrifice for people who could have come home to God at anytime and been forgiven. That His death was only a crutch for people's faith, to show them how much God wanted them home..... and ......He........died.........anyway.
Its a very sobering thought. Diving into rapids to save a person and dying is one thing. To walk into a field and die to pick a graple colored flower, Io.w. for no purpose, other than to tell you, you can make this journey now, come home, is quite the other. One is a necessary heroic attempt. The other is ultimately pointless, a sacrifice to encourage something that could happen anyway....
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Servant, you too are dead on. I get in trouble saying its not Christ's blood that saves us. I have to drive that point home, because some people actually idolize the cross and His blood, and lose sight of the Christ in all the hoopla.
The blood doesn't force God to forgive us. The only reason it will forgive us, is God said it would, and He will keep His promise. With that in mind, think on this... that means Christ suffered the shame, the pain, the anguish, and knew it didn't have to be. That it only was causing a symbolic sacrifice for people who could have come home to God at anytime and been forgiven. That His death was only a crutch for people's faith, to show them how much God wanted them home..... and ......He........died.........anyway.
Its a very sobering thought. Diving into rapids to save a person and dying is one thing. To walk into a field and die to pick a graple colored flower, Io.w. for no purpose, other than to tell you, you can make this journey now, come home, is quite the other. One is a necessary heroic attempt. The other is ultimately pointless, a sacrifice to encourage something that could happen anyway....
.
Without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sin.
But it did have to be that way, because in order for man's sin debt to be paid it had to be paid by a man, and Jesus of Nazareth was that man.
Though indwelt by God, "Acts 2:22 Jesus of Nazareth, a man, attested to by God through signs and wonders which God did through Him.
That said, i've often wondered and asked friends this question:
If Jesus had been killed by guillotine, would they wear one around their neck, place them on their car, etc?
A couple years ago i actually wrote a song with this idea.
It's not the cross, but the sacrifice, a block of wood could never pay the price.
It's not the dust, but the blood, it is love.
It's the Spirit of God flowing through each one of us.
Without it we are nothing.
There's a lot more to it, but you get the idea.
But it did have to be that way, because in order for man's sin debt to be paid it had to be paid by a man, and Jesus of Nazareth was that man.
Though indwelt by God, "Acts 2:22 Jesus of Nazareth, a man, attested to by God through signs and wonders which God did through Him.
That said, i've often wondered and asked friends this question:
If Jesus had been killed by guillotine, would they wear one around their neck, place them on their car, etc?
A couple years ago i actually wrote a song with this idea.
It's not the cross, but the sacrifice, a block of wood could never pay the price.
It's not the dust, but the blood, it is love.
It's the Spirit of God flowing through each one of us.
Without it we are nothing.
There's a lot more to it, but you get the idea.
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Ok, so you don't believe in an omnipotent God. Good, now we know where we disagree. Because if you DID claim God was omnipotent, you would not say blood sacrifice forced him to forgive, like putting coins in a vending machine buys you a snack....
I think its more correct to admit it was GOD'S promise that Christ on the cross would assuage our sin debt. You think the blood holds power over God. We have huge differences. As long as GOD IS OMNIPOTENT/ANYTHING.... then NOTHING is required for Him to need to forgive us. He can do it in any fashion HE chooses, He's God....
I think its more correct to admit it was GOD'S promise that Christ on the cross would assuage our sin debt. You think the blood holds power over God. We have huge differences. As long as GOD IS OMNIPOTENT/ANYTHING.... then NOTHING is required for Him to need to forgive us. He can do it in any fashion HE chooses, He's God....
i think you misunderstood what i said.
Of course i believe God is omnipotent.
But we in our finite faulty state need a tangible, though God does not.
Nor did i say "the blood" holds power over God.
God gave instruction regarding blood sacrifice as a picture of His infinite salvation plan.
Now, you say Jesus knew the whole time His death was unnecessary, right?
So, are you saying that Jesus was there in the beginning with God?
Because Christ, the wisdom and power of God (1 cor 1:24) was there in the beginning with God, but Jesus was anointed by God (acts 10:38) and indwelt by God (acts 2:22)
When God "said" in gen 1, the "Word" was brought forth and it was by the "Word" all things were created.
So, Jesus was 100% man in the flesh and 100% God in the Spirit. (Rom 1:3-5)
i have to go to work/church now, so i'll finish this later.
But, of course i KNOW God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and is the ONLY ONE who is or can be.
Of course i believe God is omnipotent.
But we in our finite faulty state need a tangible, though God does not.
Nor did i say "the blood" holds power over God.
God gave instruction regarding blood sacrifice as a picture of His infinite salvation plan.
Now, you say Jesus knew the whole time His death was unnecessary, right?
So, are you saying that Jesus was there in the beginning with God?
Because Christ, the wisdom and power of God (1 cor 1:24) was there in the beginning with God, but Jesus was anointed by God (acts 10:38) and indwelt by God (acts 2:22)
When God "said" in gen 1, the "Word" was brought forth and it was by the "Word" all things were created.
So, Jesus was 100% man in the flesh and 100% God in the Spirit. (Rom 1:3-5)
i have to go to work/church now, so i'll finish this later.
But, of course i KNOW God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and is the ONLY ONE who is or can be.
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Since you agree God is omnipotent, then we should agree that the only reason that JESUS' blood has God forgive us, is because GOD promised it would.
AND, that God could have promised if we found the green granite nose-picker, then that would be what the faith is about. God gave us a symbol to call us home. He built us to love our children, so giving HIS son up for crucifixion showed us how serious He was to bring us home.
Anyone that says salvation would happen no other way but Jesus' blood, either hasn't considered it's the PROMISE not the blood, OR that God is overpowered supernaturally by Jesus' blood.
And could have taught mankind the message with ANY OTHER QUEST he would have chosen. He needed to make us feel welcome to come home. Why does sin separate men from God? Not because God can't go to man, but because man run and hides in shame from God. He needed to help US believe we could come home without repercussion. That's part of LOVE is not fearing judgement, 1 j 4:16-18, right?
Of course, and so does anyone, unless they claim lack of omniscience...
Nope. Jesus wasn't there in the beginning with God. The LOGOS was there with God. At some point, the LOGOS became manifest from Mary's womb. For a period of 30summ'n years, Jesus was alive. That was the manifestation of the Word in flesh. The WORD didn't exist in flesh before that.
That was the LOGOS not the Christ. Let's not go switching words around. And He wasn't in the flesh, as He had not yet been made manifest in the realm we live in.
Which means, basically appointed, in the form of Jesus and then became the messiah. He wasn't the messiah before said appointment, annointment. Well, in a divine sense, where there is no linear time frame it's another story, but from our perspective, in our time line, Until Jesus was annointed with God's Spirit, the white dove, He was not the Messiah, yet.
Which if you believe Jesus WE are to have on earth, to be indwelt by GOD JUST AS HE WAS indwelt by God. Prayers in John 17.
Xian Pugilist
Inactive
Excellent choice of words!
i am so fed up with hearing rehashed teaching from pulpits based on what another MAN said.
The Word of God makes clear "YOUR GIFT WILL MAKE ROOM FOR YOU."
Of course it also says; "NOT MANY OF YOU SHOULD BE TEACHERS."
Yet you find a church every 2-5 blocks in any given town.
Hmmmmm?
i will people like rick warren would get this!
Kudos Major!!
My point is everything you've said in the quotes above were with you before you typed them into this thread, and when we read "God said" in Gen 1 is when the Wisdom and Power of God (1 Cor 1:24) is brought forth in the Logos.
This is why we read, "He (the Logos) was in the beginning with God and by Him ALL things were created (bara) and there was nothing that was created that was not created through Him.
But we also know that now Jesus has been glorified and sits at the right hand of God in a glorified body and the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead has now been sent to empower us to do the things He did but on a greater scale.
Blessings
There seems to be a play on words here concerning the Word, Jesus, Christ, Logus etc. The argment being that Jesus did not exist before the incarnation but the Word did.
May I add something here to think about? Who was it that named Jesus???
Luke 1:31..........
"And behold, thou shalt conveive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, AND SHALT CALL HIS NAME JESUS".
Mary didnt come up with that name. Joseph didnt come up with that name.
Since that name came from God, maybe we might want think logically here and just maybe that was the name of Christ before His incarnation because His name actually means SALVATION does it not!
Just a thought!
"Kudos".............a really good candy bar. Thanks!