How would you understand 'and then will all Israel be saved?"

[cocoa]

It seems Im the odd woman out on this. I find it bizarre that many Christians believe that Jews and Christians have the same God. And at the end they'll get a special privilege of receiving salvation when aside from everyone else? (correct me if Im wrong).

Its absurd to think that Christians would accept the idea that a group of people, by religion or secularism, who wilfully reject Christ would be grouped into some sort of judeo-christian melting pot.

Our God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit... if you reject Christ, you reject the one who sent Him. You cannot accept the Father and not the Son.
Luke 10:16
16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

 

[In Awe of Him]

The lie of the false teaching of replacement theology says that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit God’s promises to Israel; the covenants, then, will be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense. In other words, replacement theology teaches that Israel will not inherit the actual land of Israel; the Church is the “new Israel,” and ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not inherit the Promised Land as Jews per se.

However, the contextual and literal approach speak of future Israel which depicts Israel as distinct from the Church:
the “natural branches” are the Jews, and the “wild branches” are the Gentiles.
The “olive tree” is the collective people of God. The “natural branches” (Jews) are “cut off” the tree for unbelief, and the “wild branches” (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. This has the effect of making the Jews “jealous” and then drawing them to faith in Christ, so they might be “grafted in” again and receive their promised inheritance.

This is exactly what I was taught by a converted Jewish pastor.
I do not have a problem believing that the COVENANT made to the JEWS was/IS a FOREVER Covenant that will be FULFILLED!
There is no cause or evidence to suggest that this is now NIL and VOID in my opinion.

 

[Major]

This is exactly what I was taught by a converted Jewish pastor.
I do not have a problem believing that the COVENANT made to the JEWS was/IS a FOREVER Covenant that will be FULFILLED!
There is no cause or evidence to suggest that this is now NIL and VOID in my opinion.

Your opinion is 100% Biblically confirmed!

 

[Major]

So does rt teach the Church will inherit the Land of Israel? If not, who?

Replacement theology teaches that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan.

Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him.

The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years.

 

[crossnote]

Replacement theology teaches that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan.

Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him.

The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years.

I realize all that, but I was asking, does the church or Israel inherit the land according to replacement theology?

 

[Godhelpus]

Before I get into a discussion about a doctrine, I prefer to start with a question about your interpretation method of Scripture. Once you explain your interpretation method (metaphorical, literal, spiritual, symbolic, etc.), there is often times no need to discuss a passage. For example, I take the 1,000 year Millennium literally, so with addressing that, you already know my interpretation of the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Christ, or the animal sacrifices). Our interpretation method determines our beliefs.

Well said. To avoid needless debate, this is a sensible starter. You and I would agree, because I interpret literally wherever possible. The only time we might agree with someone more symbolically minded, is when the Scripture can't possibly be literal.

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

[crossnote]

Well said. To avoid needless debate, this is a sensible starter. You and I would agree, because I interpret literally wherever possible. The only time we might agree with someone more symbolically minded, is when the Scripture can't possibly be literal.


And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

There are plenty of exceptions to that, for example, many of the Reformed will say that the Millennium can't possibly be literal. (I wouldn't go along with that.) Perhaps the better way is to make a distinction between essential doctrine and secondary doctrine. There would still be debate, but probably not as heated as before.

 

[EddieM]

Well said. To avoid needless debate, this is a sensible starter. You and I would agree, because I interpret literally wherever possible. The only time we might agree with someone more symbolically minded, is when the Scripture can't possibly be literal.

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I take this literally. What John saw (in a vision from God) was a real woman. The sun (a big, bright yellow entity) surrounded her, and a moon-like object was under her feet. Also, upon her head was a crown of 12 miniature stars. An artist could create a picture of this with very little difficulty. The description of this woman by John was an actual woman and the other things described also literally were present. How hard would it be for God to make this image appear to John?

I am not denying that this woman represented something other than a woman, but once you take all the "literalness" away, it would be inappropriate to dogmatically espouse what they represent. Unfortunately, like parables, they only represent something, and we are not told what that is. The best we can do is to speculate what they represent. Do not build a doctrine on data given in a represented format.

 

[Major]

I realize all that, but I was asking, does the church or Israel inherit the land according to replacement theology?

Brother, according to RT, the church HAS already inherited the land promised to Israel.

This false teaching says that ALL the promises made to Israel in the Bible have already been fulfilled in the Christian Church.

What that teach is that the Church IS the New Israel which means that the churche's role in God's plan has superseeded that of national Israel.

 

[Major]

I take this literally. What John saw (in a vision from God) was a real woman. The sun (a big, bright yellow entity) surrounded her, and a moon-like object was under her feet. Also, upon her head was a crown of 12 miniature stars. An artist could create a picture of this with very little difficulty. The description of this woman by John was an actual woman and the other things described also literally were present. How hard would it be for God to make this image appear to John?

I am not denying that this woman represented something other than a woman, but once you take all the "literalness" away, it would be inappropriate to dogmatically espouse what they represent. Unfortunately, like parables, they only represent something, and we are not told what that is. The best we can do is to speculate what they represent. Do not build a doctrine on data given in a represented format.

Agreed.

It should be remembered that what John saw he described in his language of 95 AD.

 

[Major]

There are plenty of exceptions to that, for example, many of the Reformed will say that the Millennium can't possibly be literal. (I wouldn't go along with that.) Perhaps the better way is to make a distinction between essential doctrine and secondary doctrine. There would still be debate, but probably not as heated as before.

I am not sure about the "reformed" bunch, but the liberal bunch will surely say that.

 

[crossnote]

This false teaching says that ALL the promises made to Israel in the Bible have already been fulfilled in the Christian Church.

Do you have a source?
It's not a challenge, but after interacting with a few of them, I realize they are all over the map, just as Dispys are.

 

[Major]

Do you have a source?
It's not a challenge, but after interacting with a few of them, I realize they are all over the map, just as Dispys are.

Just seach the net for Replacement Theology. It is not hard to find what they teach. Here are a few.........

https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj20d.pdf

Has the Church Replaced Israel? Understanding the Biblical Relationship Between Israel, the Church, and Christianity

Explore the relationship between Israel, the Church, and Christianity. Learn why replacement theology is unbiblical and how Christians are grafted into Israel

www.lovechurchcommunity.com

The Church and Israel: The Issue

Throughout the history of the Christian church, the question of Israel’s place within God’s redemptive purposes has been of special importance.

learn.ligonier.org

What is Replacement Theology?

Replacement Theology: What It Is and Why It Matters for Christians - Learn - ICEJ USA Branch

This article explores the relatively new term Replacement theology, including its history as well as what it is, why it is so dangerous, why it matters for Christians, and more.

icejusa.org

 

[crossnote]

Just seach the net for Replacement Theology. It is not hard to find what they teach. Here are a few.........

https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj20d.pdf

Has the Church Replaced Israel? Understanding the Biblical Relationship Between Israel, the Church, and Christianity

Explore the relationship between Israel, the Church, and Christianity. Learn why replacement theology is unbiblical and how Christians are grafted into Israel

www.lovechurchcommunity.com

The Church and Israel: The Issue

Throughout the history of the Christian church, the question of Israel’s place within God’s redemptive purposes has been of special importance.

learn.ligonier.org

What is Replacement Theology?

Replacement Theology: What It Is and Why It Matters for Christians - Learn - ICEJ USA Branch

This article explores the relatively new term Replacement theology, including its history as well as what it is, why it is so dangerous, why it matters for Christians, and more.

icejusa.org

I was a bit surprised to see Ligonier as a source link- headed up by an ex-partial preterist (I say 'ex' because now he would know better)

 

[crossnote]

Major Time-wise, which of the articles answers the question, "does the church or Israel inherit the land according to replacement theology?"

 

[crossnote]

Major I also found this in the 1st article (just before the first picture, "You are therefore made an Israelite through spirit, and not through flesh. You form part of God's chosen people."
I would respond with what happened to ?:
Ephesians 2:15 KJV
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:15 ESV
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

So I wouldn't call it Replacement theology but rather Fusion theology.

 

[Major]

Major I also found this in the 1st article (just before the first picture, "You are therefore made an Israelite through spirit, and not through flesh. You form part of God's chosen people."
I would respond with what happened to ?:
Ephesians 2:15 KJV
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:15 ESV
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

So I wouldn't call it Replacement theology but rather Fusion theology.

Would you say that "Fusion Theology" could be understood as Fulfillment Theology????

If so, and I think that is well could be thought of as that...then it is still Replacement!
Replacement Theology proponents believe that land is unimportant to God now, and references to the promised land mean the whole world.

Replacement Theology rests chiefly on the idea that the whole or part of the Abrahamic covenant has been abolished, for it is this covenant that promises to Israel eternal ownership of the land of Canaan (Genesis 17:7–8):

"Once this “promise” has been removed, the present-day restoration of Israel means nothing, and her only hope is in the church. Now, it must be made clear that we believe that only in Christ Jesus can there be salvation for Jews and gentiles alike (Rom, 1:16-17). However, we do not believe that the promise of God in the Abrahamic covenant bequeathing the land of Canaan to Israel has been removed, and therefore, Israel’s modern restoration to the land of Canaan is indeed fulfillment of that promise and constitutes a milestone on her “way home” to her Messiah. (Ezekiel 36:24–28)
SOURCE.........Hedding, Malcom. “Replacement Theology: Abolitionism and Reconstructionism,” www.icejusa.org/replacement-theology/, Accessed 16 May 2024.
Replacement Theology is closely associated with Reformed (also called Covenant) Theology, which leans toward an amillennial end-time view that prioritizes spiritualizing certain Scriptures and prophecies over-interpreting them literally and historically.
SOURCE........“All scholars and theologians realize Scripture is to be interpreted not only literally but also figuratively. Jesus did the latter when saying Jonah was about his death and resurrection. The debate is not over literal versus figurative but which to take first before the other. Calvin himself talked about the importance of the literal but then used the figurative alone in reference to Israel” (Gerald McDermott).
John Calvin seems to be one of the 1st to believe that because of the Jewish people’s disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God removed the covenant He made with them. The outpouring of his theological beliefs is part of the theological tradition known today as Calvinism. Thus, Reformed Theology and Calvinism have replacement views.
Roman Catholics adopted Replacement Theology from the fourth century (but since post-Vatican II, has emphasized more of a balance) and Lutherans from the sixteenth century. Anabaptists tend to have a replacement view of the Jewish people as well.
SOURCE.........https://icejusa.org/2024/09/05/replacement-theology-what-it-is-and-why-it-matters-for-christians/

Replacement Theology is NOT Biblical for several reason. Some of those are IMHO............

1. The Bible says that Gods covenants with Israel are IRREVOCABLE.
Source......Genesis 17:2 & 2 Samuel 7:16


2. The New Test. says that there is a distinction between Israel and the Church. The Bible clearly says that the promises, covenants and law belong to the Jews and the CHURCH which includes both Jews and Gentiles is a separate entity with its own redemptive plan.
Source......Romans 9:4 and Ephesians 2:14-16.

3. The Historical and Survival of Israel IMHO remove the claims of Replacement Theology. If God had replace Israel with the church,
then Israe's survival to this day would be inexplicable.


4. Those who accept Replacement Theology do so by "spiritualizing" (allegorizing) specific prophecies in the Bible by the prophets concerning Israel by teaching that those prophecies were fullfilled by the church. That process undermines the LITERAL approach of interpretation and always leads to error by the bias of ones own thoughts.

IMO....The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen.
SOURCE.......Romans 11.

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=f713...WNzL3RydXRoLXJlcGxhY2VtZW50LXRoZW9sb2d5&ntb=1

 

[Major]

Well said. To avoid needless debate, this is a sensible starter. You and I would agree, because I interpret literally wherever possible. The only time we might agree with someone more symbolically minded, is when the Scripture can't possibly be literal.

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman in Rev. 12 is the nation of Israel.

In 12:1 the key to understanding it is the word "SIGN".
Because John plainly said this is a sign, we don’t expect this woman to appear literally on the earth.

When we read the Scripture, we see that this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream
as seen in Genesis 37:9-11.

In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

When we then do due diligence in our Bible study we can see that In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jere. 3:20 Ez. 16:8-14 & Hosea 2:19-20).

Then is verse 2, "Being with child": we see that this woman gives birth and it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Rev. 12:5).

 

[BibleLover]

The woman in Rev. 12 is the nation of Israel.

In 12:1 the key to understanding it is the word "SIGN".
Because John plainly said this is a sign, we don’t expect this woman to appear literally on the earth.

When we read the Scripture, we see that this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream
as seen in Genesis 37:9-11.

In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

When we then do due diligence in our Bible study we can see that In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jere. 3:20 Ez. 16:8-14 & Hosea 2:19-20).

Then is verse 2, "Being with child": we see that this woman gives birth and it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Rev. 12:5).

Replacement Theology is at the heart of Western antisemitism.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Before I get into a discussion about a doctrine, I prefer to start with a question about your interpretation method of Scripture. Once you explain your interpretation method (metaphorical, literal, spiritual, symbolic, etc.), there is often times no need to discuss a passage. For example, I take the 1,000 year Millennium literally, so with addressing that, you already know my interpretation of the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Christ, or the animal sacrifices). Our interpretation method determines our beliefs.

Hold to Covenant premil theology for the second coming event