Hurting

mattjanes said:
yes I know that people know what is right and what is wrong and it is built in our conscience. In my conscience I believe that there is content in Scripture and Bible that is wrong evil in my book. I think an innocent person being tortured and murdered by a serial killer or tortured and murdered or starve to death in a concentration camp is a tiny minor tragedy compared it to the suffering in hell. the horror and the misfortune is microscopic compared to eternal punishment.​

And so in my mind, God allowing people for whatever reason to be tortured forever without a second chance for what they do with their short life, is wrong, and as I see it is the greatest evil.
God could prevent such a thing. The least he could do is speak up to all of this confused people and stop giving us silence.

the dogma of Hell as it has been described to me is depressing ugly wicked unjust and irrational.

I understand that there are Christians who give a good defense on the suffering not being eternal. I hope that is the case but it was not the belief of the early Christians, the church fathers or the majority of Christians in this day. So it gives me little comfort
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Well I guess you got it all figured out. If that's true why are you so miserable? Blaming God isn't going to change your situation nor garnish any sympathy. If you really knew what God has done for you, you'd fall flat on the floor begging forgiveness for assuming to know more than He. (y)
 
mattjanes said:
yes I know that people know what is right and what is wrong and it is built in our conscience. In my conscience I believe that there is content in Scripture and Bible that is wrong evil in my book. I think an innocent person being tortured and murdered by a serial killer or tortured and murdered or starve to death in a concentration camp is a tiny minor tragedy compared it to the suffering in hell. the horror and the misfortune is microscopic compared to eternal punishment.

And so in my mind, God allowing people for whatever reason to be tortured forever without a second chance for what they do with their short life, is wrong, and as I see it is the greatest evil.
God could prevent such a thing. The least he could do is speak up to all of this confused people and stop giving us silence.
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Matt, the Lord has done every thing he could possible do to keep people from going to Hell. He over looks mans sin when he does not have to. God has revealed himself to man who is spiritually dead who would have never have known that he exists. He tells man to choose life and not death so he and his seed might live forever with Him. The one thing God will not do is make that choice for you, you have to make it. God protects your rights as a person to choose your destiny.
God never tortures anyone, that is not part of his nature. People who find themselves in Hell are there because of their own choice, and their torment is not from God, it is the torment of knowing they made the wrong choice. As it tells us in scripture, " and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever." Revelations 14:11 Notice, it is the smoke of their torment.... not God's
 
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no I absolutely have nothing figured out. God knows more than I do. But I have seen wicked people suffering. I have seen them screaming in excruciating pain. To think of them having to be in excruciating pain and regret forever is absolutely sickening and the worstnightmare and misfortune imaginable.

God does not have to allow that God is capable of doing anything. I am sorry but the only way that I could love a god that would permit something so unfathomably horrific, to leave people in a worst nightmare that never ends. I can only love and praise such a God , not out of genuine love , for there is nothing loveable or beautiful about this, but out of fear of the consequences of not loving and obeying and serving such a god.
Abdicate said:
Well I guess you got it all figured out. If that's true why are you so miserable? Blaming God isn't going to change your situation nor garnish any sympathy. If you really knew what God has done for you, you'd fall flat on the floor begging forgiveness for assuming to know more than He. (y)
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if eternal suffering is the consequence of being an unbeliever, or following our human nature, I am sorrybut I cannot love such a God. I can fear his wrath and that is the extent of my reverence.
 
mattjanes said:
yes I know that people know what is right and what is wrong and it is built in our conscience. In my conscience I believe that there is content in Scripture and Bible that is wrong evil in my book. I think an innocent person being tortured and murdered by a serial killer or tortured and murdered or starve to death in a concentration camp is a tiny minor tragedy compared it to the suffering in hell. the horror and the misfortune is microscopic compared to eternal punishment.​

And so in my mind, God allowing people for whatever reason to be tortured forever without a second chance for what they do with their short life, is wrong, and as I see it is the greatest evil.
God could prevent such a thing. The least he could do is speak up to all of this confused people and stop giving us silence.

the dogma of Hell as it has been described to me is depressing ugly wicked unjust and irrational.

I understand that there are Christians who give a good defense on the suffering not being eternal. I hope that is the case but it was not the belief of the early Christians, the church fathers or the majority of Christians in this day. So it gives me little comfort
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God gives people may chances. Eternal punishment is the consequence of unrighteousness. No one is righteous apart from the righteousness we take on in Christ by faith in Him and what he did for us on the cross. Our sin is imputed to Him. Without Him and His righteousness in us, we will have to pay for our sin forever.

Hellfire is a horrible place, and it should cause your conscience to be pricked. But it shouldn't cause you to reject the way out. Those who are insulted by the thought that God would have a place to confine evil away from Him forever are simply mistaken in their view. Evil must be dealt with once and for all, and that includes the wickedness that resides in all man who reject the way out provided for them out of immeasurable LOVE and MERCY.
 
mattjanes said:
no I absolutely have nothing figured out. God knows more than I do. But I have seen wicked people suffering. I have seen them screaming in excruciating pain. To think of them having to be in excruciating pain and regret forever is absolutely sickening and the worstnightmare and misfortune imaginable.

God does not have to allow that God is capable of doing anything. I am sorry but the only way that I could love a god that would permit something so unfathomably horrific, to leave people in a worst nightmare that never ends. I can only love and praise such a God , not out of genuine love , for there is nothing loveable or beautiful about this, but out of fear of the consequences of not loving and obeying and serving such a god.
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And that is why Jesus Christ took upon himself our pain and suffering, and guilt and any other thing that causes us discomfort so we would not have to. He did not deserve it, but we do. How is that for having a Holy, and just God?
 
mattjanes said:
no I absolutely have nothing figured out. God knows more than I do. But I have seen wicked people suffering. I have seen them screaming in excruciating pain. To think of them having to be in excruciating pain and regret forever is absolutely sickening and the worstnightmare and misfortune imaginable.

God does not have to allow that God is capable of doing anything. I am sorry but the only way that I could love a god that would permit something so unfathomably horrific, to leave people in a worst nightmare that never ends. I can only love and praise such a God , not out of genuine love , for there is nothing loveable or beautiful about this, but out of fear of the consequences of not loving and obeying and serving such a god.
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God is not the author of sin, corruption, disease and suffering. It is far too often that I read of people complaining about God when the blame is on the enemy of God. Man, through Adam has given his rightful place of dominion over the earth to Satan---it's his domain, now. We as Christians are taking back bit by precious bit what he has stolen from us.

You are more than welcome to join us!
 
mattjanes said:
if eternal suffering is the consequence of being an unbeliever, or following our human nature, I am sorrybut I cannot love such a God. I can fear his wrath and that is the extent of my reverence.
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With this attitude, you are in effect sitting in judgment over God. He is supreme and He says what goes. You need a revelation of His GREAT LOVE for you. Only then will you appreciate what He did for you and how wonderful He is to actually think that you are worthy to be in relationship with Him! That will humble you and you will fall to your knees in grateful adoration for His making a way for you.
 
Hello Matt, welcome to the forum, wow, where to begin?

May I start with this, "I'm a heretic!" yes you are, but that is pardonable, a heretic is just someone that has an opinion, and that is what you are doing here, giving your opinions to the unanswered questions you have.

The last state of those that didn't believe God and His gospel is exactly what they wanted and they have chosen to go there, the Bible teaches that the Lake of Fire was created for the devil and the demons, not for humans, God has sent His son to the earth to give us His righteousness by dying on the Cross in my place and your place, it's free for the taking, people have to literally trample over the body of Jesus Christ to have their own way, so really there is no excuse, God won't force them to be where they don't want to be, .........have you received it, His righteousness that is?

The Bible tells us God is love, light, goodness and many more things, so the Lake of Fire is complete separation from God and all of His qualities, in other words, the exact opposite of what He is, so if man was created by God and for God, to worship and serve Him and live for ever with Him in a love relationship for Eternity, then it's man's own fault if they choose not to and prefer to be with the devil for all Eternity.

As for all of the pain we see here on earth, the devil is responsible for that, he is a murderer and has been from his creation, so we can't really blame God for this, Adam turned over the dominion of the earth to the devil, if God were to intervene then the devil could claim He is interfering in his world and that wouldn't be Just of God.

I hope I have helped a little with your questions, and again, I ask you the question, have you received Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, are you born again? Just because people know some things about the Bible and Christianity doesn't mean they are born again, it just means that God is drawing them to His Son Jesus Christ, what I'm seeing is you know about the Hell of the Bible, but you don't know the God of the Bible, so don't stop searching and asking questions, every human born is the property of the devil and he doesn't want to lose what is his, he sees God working in your life so he is is behind all of these question in your mind and and planting the doubt that God is good.

Here is how God works in an unregenerated life, that person is blind, deaf and unable to reason, the first thing He does is open their eyes to see the disorder and confusion in their lives and to reveal to them there is a Hell and Hell is the place of sinners, I believe from what you have shared with us that is where you are, the next thing God will do is open your ears to be able to hear the Gospel message, ...Jesus died in our place for our sin, after that He will open out intelligence to be able to think it through, to reason it out, ...that Jesus died for our sins, ...then comes the choice, Heaven or Hell, ...and God doesn't have anything to do with the choice.

In His Love,

Gene
 
even if somebody goes before him and rejects God in a fit of rage, the suffering does not deserve an eternal consequence.

Ihave changed a lot in the last seven years. In fact,I have gone from being a complete sociopath to being quite altruistic, empathetic, and compassionate.

If a person could change that much in 7 yearswhat could take place in a hundred thousand years? I see no need for the eternal punishment.
JustPassingThru said:
Hello Matt, welcome to the forum, wow, where to begin?

May I start with this, "I'm a heretic!" yes you are, but that is pardonable, a heretic is just someone that has an opinion, and that is what you are doing here, giving your opinions to the unanswered questions you have.

The last state of those that didn't believe God and His gospel is exactly what they wanted and they have chosen to go there, the Bible teaches that the Lake of Fire was created for the devil and the demons, not for humans, God has sent His son to the earth to give us His righteousness by dying on the Cross in my place and your place, it's free for the taking, people have to literally trample over the body of Jesus Christ to have their own way, so really there is no excuse, God won't force them to be where they don't want to be, .........have you received it, His righteousness that is?

The Bible tells us God is love, light, goodness and many more things, so the Lake of Fire is complete separation from God and all of His qualities, in other words, the exact opposite of what He is, so if man was created by God and for God, to worship and serve Him and live for ever with Him in a love relationship for Eternity, then it's man's own fault if they choose not to and prefer to be with the devil for all Eternity.

As for all of the pain we see here on earth, the devil is responsible for that, he is a murderer and has been from his creation, so we can't really blame God for this, Adam turned over the dominion of the earth to the devil, if God were to intervene then the devil could claim He is interfering in his world and that wouldn't be Just of God.

I hope I have helped a little with your questions, and again, I ask you the question, have you received Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, are you born again? Just because people know some things about the Bible and Christianity doesn't mean they are born again, it just means that God is drawing them to His Son Jesus Christ, what I'm seeing is you know about the Hell of the Bible, but you don't know the God of the Bible, so don't stop searching and asking questions, every human born is the property of the devil and he doesn't want to lose what is his, he sees God working in your life so he is is behind all of these question in your mind and and planting the doubt that God is good.

Here is how God works in an unregenerated life, that person is blind, deaf and unable to reason, the first thing He does is open their eyes to see the disorder and confusion in their lives and to reveal to them there is a Hell and Hell is the place of sinners, I believe from what you have shared with us that is where you are, the next thing God will do is open your ears to be able to hear the Gospel message, ...Jesus died in our place for our sin, after that He will open out intelligence to be able to think it through, to reason it out, ...that Jesus died for our sins, ...then comes the choice, Heaven or Hell, ...and God doesn't have anything to do with the choice.

In His Love,

Gene
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mattjanes said:
If a person could change that much in 7 yearswhat could take place in a hundred thousand years? I see no need for the eternal punishment.
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It can go the other way too. Hitler probably would have made Satan cringe if he lived a hundred thousand years.
I think you only die after you have made your ultimate choice. God won't short change you.
 
mattjanes said:
even if somebody goes before him and rejects God in a fit of rage, the suffering does not deserve an eternal consequence.

Ihave changed a lot in the last seven years. In fact,I have gone from being a complete sociopath to being quite altruistic, empathetic, and compassionate.

If a person could change that much in 7 yearswhat could take place in a hundred thousand years? I see no need for the eternal punishment.
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Man can not change himself. He might be able to modify his behaviour, but he can not change what he is. Only God can change man into something other than he was before. As for eternal punishment, it is not up to us what will happen to those who reject God's offer of eternal life. It is going to happen weather we believe or not. No amount of logical thinking or wishing is going change the Word of God that has already told us the events that are going to happen in the future.
 
"even if somebody goes before him and rejects God in a fit of rage, the suffering does not deserve an eternal consequence."

Oh really, rejecting that God in His love became a Man and allowed the people He came to save to torture and crucify Him?????

Like I said, the Eternal Punishment was created for the devil and the demons, it's a fact and reality, whether we like it or not, but we don't have to go there, God isn't forcing anyone to go there, on the contrary, He did everything He could to keep humans from going there, can you see that, ...yes he created it with a specific purpose, but then those that He loved we tricked into the same fate as the devil, it all boils down to our choice, God has nothing to do with, ...also, one fit of anger won't cause someone to miss out on Heaven, it is a steady, gradual resistance to the Truth that causes someone to go there, and that is exactly what the devil is doing with you and your doubt, ...repent and change directions before it's to late.

In His Love,

Gene
 
I am NOT rejecting the truth. I do not know what the truth is.I have had Moslems, Catholics, evangelicals, Pentecostals and, and non denominational, Baptists, and every other denomination including the Mormons Seventh day Adventist telling me they have the truth. Somebody is wrong. If somebody is right , then the rest are wrong. I have seen people give multiple vs of the Scriptures, supporting opposite opinions.

therefore, they cannot all be right. Either they are all wrong. Or one is right and all of them are wrong. At this time, I do not know. Therefore,I am NOT rejecting the truth because I do not know the truth.
 
mattjanes said:
I am NOT rejecting the truth. I do not know what the truth is.I have had Moslems, Catholics, evangelicals, Pentecostals and, and non denominational, Baptists, and every other denomination including the Mormons Seventh day Adventist telling me they have the truth. Somebody is wrong. If somebody is right , then the rest are wrong. I have seen people give multiple vs of the Scriptures, supporting opposite opinions.

therefore, they cannot all be right. Either they are all wrong. Or one is right and all of them are wrong. At this time, I do not know. Therefore,I am NOT rejecting the truth because I do not know the truth.
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Here is a good start....

Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Check it out for your self.
 
Do you have a Bible?

If so look up the verses I'm going to give, I'm going to print them out, but just the same you look them up too, the reason I want you to read them yourself is that way you will experience God talking to you.

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God (the Bible) is living and powerful, ....once you hear God talk to you through His Word then you will experience and know what is the Truth, isn't that what you are asking???

Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,

Do you see what I was talking about, dead men can't see, hear or reason,

Eph 5:14 Therefore he says, "Awake, sleeping ones! And arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

That is what I'm talking about, God is awaking you out of your death sleep, and because of that the enemy of your soul has come along side of you and whispered doubt and suspicions in your mind, "How could a God of love send someone to Hell for Eternity?" man if I had a dollar for every time I heard that I would be a very rich man today, Matt, you are in a spiritual battle for your soul between you and the devil, may I suggest you start believing what God has said in His Word and just wait, once you become born again He will answer all of your questions, .......our walk with the Lord is a walk of Faith, maybe we don't understand it, but because a loving Heavenly Father has said it believe it to be True.

In His Love,

Gene
 
mattjanes said:
even if somebody goes before him and rejects God in a fit of rage, the suffering does not deserve an eternal consequence.

Ihave changed a lot in the last seven years. In fact,I have gone from being a complete sociopath to being quite altruistic, empathetic, and compassionate.

If a person could change that much in 7 yearswhat could take place in a hundred thousand years? I see no need for the eternal punishment.
Click to expand...

An unrighteous person will be condemned without mercy, for God's judgment will not include mercy. His mercy is on offer NOW. No one will be able to change once he has been judged. The change God effects in us is by His Spirit through the regeneration of our spirits when we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour. That will not happen after judgment. The ruling of God is forever. That is why He says, "Today is the day of salvation." Once one breathes his last, his eternity is sealed.

Punishment is eternal just as conversely, our reward of life is eternal. God's plan for salvation has an end...Judgment Day.
 
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