I Don't Understand...

LearningToLetGo

LearningToLetGo

I came to Christ late in my life -- my mid to late forties -- and was not raised in a Christian household. It was through self study that I learned, and not via any formal church setting. Indeed, I still don't quite understand the relationships people have for or against the various factions since I belong to none, and thus feel equally comfortable in all.

I say this so fellow CFS members understand my point of reference.
 
Hello LearningToLetGo;

Thank you for sharing your testimony and your position. Your self study and (being a software engineer?) is impressive to me. Most of my life I never seriously read books except the Bible and I always struggled with MS-DOS back in the day.

Three years later I learned you enjoy drawing/painting art which I also enjoy here.

No matter the size of a formal Church setting whether a house, rented office building or Church property, there will be people problems.

But what makes Christian Forum Site's setting a blessing is that an individual can share their art, poem or song and this inspires others. A prayer request is never confrontational here, instead encouraging and though the membership may be small, the members have known each other quite awhile which has it's benefits. This is fellowship and Jesus was the master of fellowship.

I can have an off day here but through prayer (I pray for this site morning and evening,) the next day I feel there is always something new from a member so I don't have to carry yesterday with me.

God bless you, Jason, and thank you.

Bob
 
bobinfaith said:
Thank you for sharing your testimony and your position.
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Thanks, Bob.

I have learned a lot from conversing with people here. I've also learned a lot from speaking with pastors and priests at whatever church I happen to wander in to. I've also learned a lot from monks and devotees of other religions. All these experiences have brought me where I am today.

I find it difficult to get too attached to any specific belief or creed. One person says this, another that and both can justify their position with verses of the Bible. Personally I take a "both, and" approach over an "either, or". If two people say things that are logically inconsistent, okay, I can possibly accept that. Who am I to tell God how the world should work? Do I complain about thermodynamics or gravity? it's quite silly.

That's my take. Perhaps I'm wrong. That's fine with me. I accept God's will, whatever it may be.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I find it difficult to get too attached to any specific belief or creed. One person says this, another that and both can justify their position with verses of the Bible.
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unfortunately many churches are dived by denomination name . nothing wrong with belonging to a church or even having at a church base to attend.. you dont have to join.... its sad to say that the name over the door takes priority over the name in the heart . to be honest with its best off the study out the doctrines/articles of faith .. what they believe see if that fits you.. i like to say Church denominational names are like what type vehicle you like . some are ford owners some chevy etc . its because that is what suits them... i had a pastor friend that was a dodge man.. i told him i would pray for him lol..

if you like baptist there are humteen different baptist they all see scripture different example the southern ' missionary' and independen al place strong emphasis on eternal security /once saved always saved .. the general and free will do not holds to that.. so if you was to study it out. you should decided what you feel fits your study. same if a person prefers pentecostal there are several out there..

i would be careful on choices you need to know what they teach. i will say there is a huge advantage of having a church family .. paul told timothy study to show your self approved rightly dividing the truth . read your bible ask questions if you sense something not right .. odds are its not . there is a group just for you. i pastor a church its general baptist ..but i dont put general baptist on a pedestal and nor do i preach what general baptist has to say.. i use scripture it took 33 years for me and some bad curves and wrecks to open my eyes.. if one dont want to follow God,, he will not force himself on you.. nut he will give you enough rope to hang your self to wake you up. . kep searching
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I came to Christ late in my life -- my mid to late forties -- and was not raised in a Christian household. It was through self study that I learned, and not via any formal church setting. Indeed, I still don't quite understand the relationships people have for or against the various factions since I belong to none, and thus feel equally comfortable in all.

I say this so fellow CFS members understand my point of reference.
Click to expand...
Better late than never!

Absolutely nothing wrong with what you just described. If by saying "factions" I am assuming you are referring to the different denominations of the Christian faith.

That determination usually comes by what ever denomination you unite with that you believe matches your "self study" of the Bible.

I am person who identifies with the Southern Baptist Convention of churches. I studied in a Presbyterian and an Independant school. I did that because of the VA loan program and a scholarship. It was later I come to the conclusion that the SBC was the closest to the Bible.

Now does that mean they are the perfect "faction"? Absolutely not! However when compared to all the others, I felt very comfortable in their statement of faith and doctrinal positions.

Now you know!
 
Major said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with what you just described. If by saying "factions" I am assuming you are referring to the different denominations of the Christian faith.
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Yep. I was in a mood. Perhaps 'factions' was unnecessarily harsh. I include Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox and various "cults" in this grouping also. As an "outsider looking in", which I was for many decades, I honestly don't see a lot of difference. It's like cooking - some people say "this is jambalaya", others say "this is paella", and some say "this is shrimp Louie", but all I see is "soup". That is to say they all have their quirks but essentially say the same thing. If God's going to cut the lines that thin then no one is saved so I try not to worry about it.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
but all I see is "soup"
Click to expand...
I think it's not until someone is HURT by bad doctrine that they begin to see separate vegetables in the "soup".

For me.... BECAUSE I wanted to know the truth about GOD so badly ... Doctrine became a REAL ISSUE for me.

Right off the bat... I knew I could NOT trust several denominations.

1. When I left Catholicism.... according to "Catholic teaching" I was labelled a HERETIC and sentenced to HELL by this organization. That is a very STRONG statement....YET it is part of the FALSE AUTHORITY this church stands on. THAT matters to me. It matters that this organization stands for so many things that go AGAINST biblical teaching.

2. I could not turn to the Pentecostal churches because they were all so GIMME GIMME.... In JESUS name... YOU are HEALED... did not work for me... because I was so sick with depression that would NOT leave me. On the other hand.... my depression was NOT a demon and I could not accept being prayed over with that mindset. I have seen a great many videos of people FALLING over.... laughing like wild animals... I have seen gold flecks dropping from the ceiling... claimed to be GOLD dust when in all reality... it was gold glitter that had been placed in the air conditioning unit for effect... leading people to believe that GOD's Presence was manifest. That matters to me.

3. Churches that teach that one can LOSE their salvation. THIS was one of my BIGGEST and most painful "wrestlings" with GOD. How many years that LIE of "potentially losing my salvation" haunted me. If I could LOSE my SALVATION by something I did.... then... by golly... WHY even try??
That mattered and still matters to me.

4. If God has pre-ordained and selected some for heaven and some for hell... then again.... WHY bother?? It's all a puppet show ( Calvinism ).
It matters to me.

This is WHY all the fuss about BAD and GOOD Doctrine.

OH how I wish I saw SOUP.... Life would be so much easier for me if I only saw SOUP.... SADLY...I see every single solitary ingredient... and what those ingredients are made of... and the pot it goes into.

Finding CHRIST was a brutal journey for me BECAUSE of the LIES I came from. BECAUSE of that.... BECAUSE it took GOD HIMSELF to come to me and speak to me.... AFTER 20 years of being in turmoil over WHAT IF GOD is ANGRY?? WHAT IF I CAN LOSE MY SALVATION??? AM I GOING TO HELL because the church says I am?? ALL those UGLY things ... they are BAD DOCTRINE.... and they MATTER.

You are most BLESSED LearningToLetGo that your journey was WAY more simplistic in that you became a CHRISTIAN and it was a matter of decision. For me... it was a matter of life and death.

God bless you... and just embrace that SOUP... HAHA. I wish I could see SOUP.
 
In Awe of Him said:
I think it's not until someone is HURT by bad doctrine that they begin to see separate vegetables in the "soup". For me.... BECAUSE I wanted to know the truth about GOD so badly ... Doctrine became a REAL ISSUE for me. Right off the bat... I knew I could NOT trust several denominations.

1. When I left Catholicism.... according to "Catholic teaching" I was labelled a HERETIC and sentenced to HELL by this organization. That is a very STRONG statement....YET it is part of the FALSE AUTHORITY this church stands on. THAT matters to me. It matters that this organization stands for so many things that go AGAINST biblical teaching.

2. I could not turn to the Pentecostal churches because they were all so GIMME GIMME.... In JESUS name... YOU are HEALED... did not work for me... because I was so sick with depression that would NOT leave me. On the other hand.... my depression was NOT a demon and I could not accept being prayed over with that mindset. I have seen a great many videos of people FALLING over.... laughing like wild animals... I have seen gold flecks dropping from the ceiling... claimed to be GOLD dust when in all reality... it was gold glitter that had been placed in the air conditioning unit for effect... leading people to believe that GOD's Presence was manifest. That matters to me.

3. Churches that teach that one can LOSE their salvation. THIS was one of my BIGGEST and most painful "wrestlings" with GOD. How many years that LIE of "potentially losing my salvation" haunted me. If I could LOSE my SALVATION by something I did.... then... by golly... WHY even try??
That mattered and still matters to me.

4. If God has pre-ordained and selected some for heaven and some for hell... then again.... WHY bother?? It's all a puppet show ( Calvinism ).
It matters to me.

This is WHY all the fuss about BAD and GOOD Doctrine.

OH how I wish I saw SOUP.... Life would be so much easier for me if I only saw SOUP.... SADLY...I see every single solitary ingredient... and what those ingredients are made of... and the pot it goes into.

Finding CHRIST was a brutal journey for me BECAUSE of the LIES I came from. BECAUSE of that.... BECAUSE it took GOD HIMSELF to come to me and speak to me.... AFTER 20 years of being in turmoil over WHAT IF GOD is ANGRY?? WHAT IF I CAN LOSE MY SALVATION??? AM I GOING TO HELL because the church says I am?? ALL those UGLY things ... they are BAD DOCTRINE.... and they MATTER.

You are most BLESSED LearningToLetGo that your journey was WAY more simplistic in that you became a CHRISTIAN and it was a matter of decision. For me... it was a matter of life and death.

God bless you... and just embrace that SOUP... HAHA. I wish I could see SOUP.
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Good morning, In Awe of Him;

I red-lighted your 4 points and hope this will encourage you.

Point 1. Many of us who love Christ have experienced some form of sentence when we left a church. It left me with an uncomfortable feeling that lingered.

Point 2. Many Churches expose themselves with more "taking in" and less "giving out." For example, a Church we attended had a healthy bank account. Why? Aside from Church expenses these monies are still God's provisions and should not be used for storing up, instead be used for ongoing ministries such as missionaries, Children Youth and Adult ministries, salaries, etc...

Point 3. Though Christian Churches are to be aligned as One in the Body, they are still autonomous and will unfortunately overlap with their doctrinal teaching.

Point 4. When God has preordained and selected some for heaven and hell, why bother? This is a bad conception and all Pastors should be confronted and accounted for the proper Biblical teaching, in line with the Scriptures so the sheep (disciples grasp the Truthful meaning of Scriptures.)

Why all the fuss about good and bad doctrine? My response to that is strong and poor teaching and preaching in the Church are still God's Churches and His problem. I took my grievances to Him. I cannot tell God what He already knows. God doesn't overlook anything especially these 4 points as well as those points in me.

In all 4 points that I've experienced also included Church splits.

But in the meantime, one important area that wasn't addressed is the discipline of forgiveness. When I moved from past Churches there remained unforgiveness in me was a weight on my shoulders until I could reconcile my bitterness.

We are reminded God still loves us unconditionally, even those who wronged us. It took time but after praying for the past Churches that stayed in my thoughts, God healed me with forgiveness toward them, or an individual.

God sees everything though we may not but forgiveness released the weight and I was able to move forward. Through the years God has brought me to a place where it's exactly where He has me today. There will be new challenges and struggles with people and the Church. But knowing I've reconciled the areas from my past has allowed me to take on what is currently happening today.

God bless you, sister.

Bob
 
LearningToLetGo said:
Yep. I was in a mood. Perhaps 'factions' was unnecessarily harsh. I include Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox and various "cults" in this grouping also. As an "outsider looking in", which I was for many decades, I honestly don't see a lot of difference. It's like cooking - some people say "this is jambalaya", others say "this is paella", and some say "this is shrimp Louie", but all I see is "soup". That is to say they all have their quirks but essentially say the same thing. If God's going to cut the lines that thin then no one is saved so I try not to worry about it.
Click to expand...
Brother.....salvation is not in any denomination. Salvation is in the work of the Lord Jesus and His death, and resurrection. "Anything" that alters that is heresy and the soup should be thrown out.
 
bobinfaith said:
Good morning, In Awe of Him;

I red-lighted your 4 points and hope this will encourage you.

Point 1. Many of us who love Christ have experienced some form of sentence when we left a church. It left me with an uncomfortable feeling that lingered.

Point 2. Many Churches expose themselves with more "taking in" and less "giving out." For example, a Church we attended had a healthy bank account. Why? Aside from Church expenses these monies are still God's provisions and should not be used for storing up, instead be used for ongoing ministries such as missionaries, Children Youth and Adult ministries, salaries, etc...

Point 3. Though Christian Churches are to be aligned as One in the Body, they are still autonomous and will unfortunately overlap with their doctrinal teaching.

Point 4. When God has preordained and selected some for heaven and hell, why bother? This is a bad conception and all Pastors should be confronted and accounted for the proper Biblical teaching, in line with the Scriptures so the sheep (disciples grasp the Truthful meaning of Scriptures.)

Why all the fuss about good and bad doctrine? My response to that is strong and poor teaching and preaching in the Church are still God's Churches and His problem. I took my grievances to Him. I cannot tell God what He already knows. God doesn't overlook anything especially these 4 points as well as those points in me.

In all 4 points that I've experienced also included Church splits.

But in the meantime, one important area that wasn't addressed is the discipline of forgiveness. When I moved from past Churches there remained unforgiveness in me was a weight on my shoulders until I could reconcile my bitterness.

We are reminded God still loves us unconditionally, even those who wronged us. It took time but after praying for the past Churches that stayed in my thoughts, God healed me with forgiveness toward them, or an individual.

God sees everything though we may not but forgiveness released the weight and I was able to move forward. Through the years God has brought me to a place where it's exactly where He has me today. There will be new challenges and struggles with people and the Church. But knowing I've reconciled the areas from my past has allowed me to take on what is currently happening today.

God bless you, sister.

Bob
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Bob, I like what you said about forgiveness. The thing that taught me the importance of me forgiving people was the Lord’s prayer where it says, "forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors".
 
LearningToLetGo said:
Exactly! Salvation lies in Christ, not church. Church is for building each other up in Christ, not for tearing each other down for pastor or deacon or bishop, etc.
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Yes sir.

There are many reason to go to and belong to a church. One of those is that God told us to "Do not forsake the assembly of the brethren".

Another reason and maybe the most important one is that we are able to be taught the Word of God from a qualified person so that we can learn and grow in the faith.
 
bobinfaith said:
Good morning, In Awe of Him;

I red-lighted your 4 points and hope this will encourage you.

Point 1. Many of us who love Christ have experienced some form of sentence when we left a church. It left me with an uncomfortable feeling that lingered.

Point 2. Many Churches expose themselves with more "taking in" and less "giving out." For example, a Church we attended had a healthy bank account. Why? Aside from Church expenses these monies are still God's provisions and should not be used for storing up, instead be used for ongoing ministries such as missionaries, Children Youth and Adult ministries, salaries, etc...

Point 3. Though Christian Churches are to be aligned as One in the Body, they are still autonomous and will unfortunately overlap with their doctrinal teaching.

Point 4. When God has preordained and selected some for heaven and hell, why bother? This is a bad conception and all Pastors should be confronted and accounted for the proper Biblical teaching, in line with the Scriptures so the sheep (disciples grasp the Truthful meaning of Scriptures.)

Why all the fuss about good and bad doctrine? My response to that is strong and poor teaching and preaching in the Church are still God's Churches and His problem. I took my grievances to Him. I cannot tell God what He already knows. God doesn't overlook anything especially these 4 points as well as those points in me.

In all 4 points that I've experienced also included Church splits.

But in the meantime, one important area that wasn't addressed is the discipline of forgiveness. When I moved from past Churches there remained unforgiveness in me was a weight on my shoulders until I could reconcile my bitterness.

We are reminded God still loves us unconditionally, even those who wronged us. It took time but after praying for the past Churches that stayed in my thoughts, God healed me with forgiveness toward them, or an individual.

God sees everything though we may not but forgiveness released the weight and I was able to move forward. Through the years God has brought me to a place where it's exactly where He has me today. There will be new challenges and struggles with people and the Church. But knowing I've reconciled the areas from my past has allowed me to take on what is currently happening today.

God bless you, sister.

Bob
Click to expand...
Amen.

Over the years, we have noticed that when we moved from one church or another, the people in the church we left no longer wanted anything to do with us. We always thought that was very strange. It was like all of a sudden my wife and I had small pox and they did not want to be around us any more.
 
In Awe of Him said:
I think it's not until someone is HURT by bad doctrine that they begin to see separate vegetables in the "soup".

For me.... BECAUSE I wanted to know the truth about GOD so badly ... Doctrine became a REAL ISSUE for me.

Right off the bat... I knew I could NOT trust several denominations.

1. When I left Catholicism.... according to "Catholic teaching" I was labelled a HERETIC and sentenced to HELL by this organization. That is a very STRONG statement....YET it is part of the FALSE AUTHORITY this church stands on. THAT matters to me. It matters that this organization stands for so many things that go AGAINST biblical teaching.

2. I could not turn to the Pentecostal churches because they were all so GIMME GIMME.... In JESUS name... YOU are HEALED... did not work for me... because I was so sick with depression that would NOT leave me. On the other hand.... my depression was NOT a demon and I could not accept being prayed over with that mindset. I have seen a great many videos of people FALLING over.... laughing like wild animals... I have seen gold flecks dropping from the ceiling... claimed to be GOLD dust when in all reality... it was gold glitter that had been placed in the air conditioning unit for effect... leading people to believe that GOD's Presence was manifest. That matters to me.

3. Churches that teach that one can LOSE their salvation. THIS was one of my BIGGEST and most painful "wrestlings" with GOD. How many years that LIE of "potentially losing my salvation" haunted me. If I could LOSE my SALVATION by something I did.... then... by golly... WHY even try??
That mattered and still matters to me.

4. If God has pre-ordained and selected some for heaven and some for hell... then again.... WHY bother?? It's all a puppet show ( Calvinism ).
It matters to me.

This is WHY all the fuss about BAD and GOOD Doctrine.

OH how I wish I saw SOUP.... Life would be so much easier for me if I only saw SOUP.... SADLY...I see every single solitary ingredient... and what those ingredients are made of... and the pot it goes into.

Finding CHRIST was a brutal journey for me BECAUSE of the LIES I came from. BECAUSE of that.... BECAUSE it took GOD HIMSELF to come to me and speak to me.... AFTER 20 years of being in turmoil over WHAT IF GOD is ANGRY?? WHAT IF I CAN LOSE MY SALVATION??? AM I GOING TO HELL because the church says I am?? ALL those UGLY things ... they are BAD DOCTRINE.... and they MATTER.

You are most BLESSED LearningToLetGo that your journey was WAY more simplistic in that you became a CHRISTIAN and it was a matter of decision. For me... it was a matter of life and death.

God bless you... and just embrace that SOUP... HAHA. I wish I could see SOUP.
Click to expand...
You said.........
"3. Churches that teach that one can LOSE their salvation. "

That my dear sister is one of the classic Pentecostal false teachings.

Now, from the time you have come here to today, I KNOW from your comments that you have read a lot of Scripture!
I also KNOW that you have already discovered a very clear and obvious problem.

I believe that you have realized that most people in Christian circles teach almost precisely the opposite of what God says.

On teaching after teaching, comment after comment and book after book, what we see is that if God says to do something, men say we do not have to. If God says not to do something, almost invariably, men do it and then quote or post some random Scripture that they have "cherry picked" and try to use it as a way to validate what they teach.

Preachers and religionists speak boldly about things that are not in the Bible as if they were true.

Now to be brutely honest and getting right down to the nitty gritty.........I have NO, ZERO tolerance or sympathy for anyone who wants to argue the opinion with me that we can lose our salvation. As soon as I hear that I know that the person who said that is Biblically ignorant and there is absolulty nothing I can say or do for that person.
 
about forgiveness. 2nd Corinthians 2
But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.

2For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?

3And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.

4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.

5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

when we fail to forgive we allow the devil advantage. plus we can take this how we want but scripture reads .


Matthew 6:15

;But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


i have been burnt a few times my self. does it hurt ?yes have i had to deal with anger over it ? you bet... SOMETIMES IT TAKES A WHILE i have to pray my way through.. i can forgive them but i dont forget it nor do i go back for 2nds .. you have to just move on SPEAK to that mountain.. not only will God not forgive us he will not hear our prayers

when we fail to forgive the devil gain a foot hold..​

 
LearningToLetGo said:
Exactly! Salvation lies in Christ, not church. Church is for building each other up in Christ, not for tearing each other down for pastor or deacon or bishop, etc.
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if there not building up they may not be of God .. contrary to popular belief we do need church //

Ephesians 4:11-16
​

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


we are in the construction business not demolition. when someone tears the church up.. not only do i believe they will stand in judgment . but they are also a worker of the devil. yes i have seen church fights .. i have also seen pulpit take overs by having the right votes btw it didnt last as long as they thought.. ok i am done meddling i wait for the rebuttal lol
 
bobinfaith said:
But in the meantime, one important area that wasn't addressed is the discipline of forgiveness. When I moved from past Churches there remained unforgiveness in me was a weight on my shoulders until I could reconcile my bitterness.

We are reminded God still loves us unconditionally, even those who wronged us. It took time but after praying for the past Churches that stayed in my thoughts, God healed me with forgiveness toward them, or an individual.

God sees everything though we may not but forgiveness released the weight and I was able to move forward. Through the years God has brought me to a place where it's exactly where He has me today. There will be new challenges and struggles with people and the Church. But knowing I've reconciled the areas from my past has allowed me to take on what is currently happening today.
Click to expand...
I might be missing something you were TRYING to tell me...

I agree that forgiveness is something we have to work on. I have had to do this with my family... however... I also chose to walk away from them due to their toxic legalistic beliefs. For me... it boils down to what one chooses to ACCEPT in their life. I don't do drama... I don't accept unnecessary turmoil in my life simply because someone is my family.
Sometimes it is easier to close the door and walk away for the sake of peace.

As for assessing doctrine of different churches... I don't see that forgiveness plays a part in the judgement of DOCTRINE as this does NOT involve an actual person... but rather a series of teachings.

Sorry bobinfaith ... I think I have misunderstood your post.... Da Sheep is slow sometimes.
 
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