I Don't Understand...

[In Awe of Him]

With regards to church.... and our need of it...I do believe MOST Christians attend a fellowship of some kind.
I don't feel it is POPULAR belief NOT to attend church.... but for those who have fallen in the cracks... for whatever
reason.... I have experienced that GOD is filled with MERCY and GRACE.

I don't have a problem with being UN-CHURCHED. I consider the forums my church.

 

[thenami]

I personally believe that modern day organized churches in buildings have outlived their usefulness in society.
With the plethora of information available online, any biblical topic can be exhausted beyond comprehension.
Teaching, learning, sharing, and having questions answered can all be done online.
I find the opposite In Awe of Him. I see those 40 and younger that are saved in this area, find it popular not to attend church.
They find home based biblical studies.

Therefore, I personally seek the fellowship of other Christians. Fellowship in person is the only thing we cant receive online.

 

[Big Moose]

This was part of a teen Sunday school lesson that I found somewhere. The lesson was about what a church is and why it is important. The prop for the lesson was a telephone book. Yeah, those things we don't get anymore. But the prop was a thick phone book with the yellow pages included. (Sorry if non-USA people don't know what the yellow pages were.....basically they were the business section.) The lesson taught to let all the students try to tear the phone book in half. Of course, no one could since I have only seen the strongest of men be able to do that. So the analogy was that the phone book was like the church, and the individual pages were individual people. When you open the book and pull out a page or two, it was incredibly easy to tear those pages since they are so thin. The analogy was that the devil could tear you up more easily if you were not part of the church because you would be on your own. On the other hand, being part of the church made it difficult to tear you up because of the strength of numbers surrounding you, building you up when needed.

This discussion made me remember that lesson, for what it is worth.

 

[Big Moose]

I came to Christ late in my life -- my mid to late forties -- and was not raised in a Christian household. It was through self study that I learned, and not via any formal church setting. Indeed, I still don't quite understand the relationships people have for or against the various factions since I belong to none, and thus feel equally comfortable in all.

I say this so fellow CFS members understand my point of reference.

The only way to really understand it, is to study the history of the church from just before the Protestant Reformation to the current day. Look to see why factions broke off from the churches that existed. Some of the important ones: Catholics to the Reformation, Anabaptists, Anglicans and the Church of England, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Puritans and the Pilgrims, Mennonites and the Amish, the Quakers, and any of the current day denominations. Most of them occur from some members realizing that their church was not following the Bible in some shape or form. That's why Martin Luther is regarded highly. He started it all with nailing some statements of biblical truth on the church front door.

 

[Major]

I personally believe that modern day organized churches in buildings have outlived their usefulness in society.
With the plethora of information available online, any biblical topic can be exhausted beyond comprehension.
Teaching, learning, sharing, and having questions answered can all be done online.
I find the opposite In Awe of Him. I see those 40 and younger that are saved in this area, find it popular not to attend church.
They find home based biblical studies.

Therefore, I personally seek the fellowship of other Christians. Fellowship in person is the only thing we cant receive online.

If we do not attend church, we then miss the fellowship that is available.

The problem with home based study groups is that they open the door to well meaning people but who are not correctly educated in Biblical studies. That almost always leads to corrupted Bible doctrine that comes from people instead of the Scriptures.

 

[thenami]

delete

 

[LearningToLetGo]

How can we focus on correct doctrine without devolving into argument? I don't mean in this forum ( which does a great job of policing itself ) but within the global church itself?

My heart tells me love is the answer, but one cannot love someone who refuses to love back. Do we cut ties and go our own way? That leads right back where we already are.

 

[In Awe of Him]

How can we focus on correct doctrine without devolving into argument? I don't mean in this forum ( which does a great job of policing itself ) but within the global church itself?

My heart tells me love is the answer, but one cannot love someone who refuses to love back. Do we cut ties and go our own way? That leads right back where we already are.

This is such a GOOD question... GOD bless you LearningToLetGo for seeking to find PEACE... LOVE... and RESOLUTION. Your heart is tender and that is PLEASING before the Lord.

The answer is complicated ( in my opinion ).... in that ... ONE SIZE does NOT fit all.

For me... I had a need to walk away from my legalistic family because they are toxic to me. When I say this... I mean... the drama that ensues... the meddling they do in others' lives... the hypocrisy they live in because of hidden and un-confessed sin due to having to HIDE it from others etc... the list goes on.
It made me sick inside to be PRESENT with them for any length of time. THAT was a BOUNDARY I set for me... so that I could live my life in PEACE.

The above example is EXTREME because it involves my actual FAMILY. The result of this ( with regards to your question ) is.... In the scenerio of LEGALISM... there is NO focusing on correct doctrine. THESE people who follow do's and don'ts and harshly cast judgement on others are in a league all of their own. There is no reasoning with them... no speaking to them about things because they will fling scripture at you like it's spaghetti.
For me... the ONLY solution was to make a CLEAN CUT and MOVE on for the sake of PEACE.

On a broader scale.... most doctrinal differences do NOT matter... For as much as I dislike the Catholic Doctrine... my landlords are Catholic... they have NO CLUE how I feel.... because I don't find it necessary to share. WE live together on the same property.... and I love them with all my heart.
There is nothing wrong with being careful on WHAT we support as CHRISTIANS. In my opinion... it is necessary to stand against FALSEHOODS... but it does not mean we throw out the baby with the bathwater. ( Do people still use this term ?? ).

The bible tells us to live in PEACE... as much as is possible. What you are seeking is indeed possible and I think it does exist.

WE need to know our limitations. I have set mine very high but I am serious about GUARDING MY HEART.

There are some churches I would NEVER walk into.... and so.... I guess I would miss out on fellowship in the CHURCH BUILDING... but I would gladly break bread with these people. I just would NOT get into the doctrinal differences between us.

 

[In Awe of Him]

I've been pondering on this for a few hours now.
Scripture says this ....

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, ~2 Timothy 4:3

The above has been going on for decades now.... and this is ALL due to BAD DOCTRINE. UNTRUE TEACHINGS.

This is why a true pastor must undergo years of intensive study of the WORD. I imagine that many if not most Universities have given into the teaching of a NEW and perverted doctrines... and so.... there's that.

However... another problem that I see or believe is.... the ritual of PASSING on the mantle to another either by the death of the patriarch onto his sons or a pastor's CHOOSING of someone with whom he has mentored and/or taught.
The above is dangerous because often... it skips formal education all together with the excuse that GOD HAS ORDAINED it.

WISDOM is a gift given to us by GOD. Scripture states we are to pray for it. It is often a painful gift because it requires one to go against the flow.

I appreciate this thread LearningToLetGo... it has made me to reflect on WHY I believe as I do.

I stand in a position of GRATITUDE that GOD saw fit to address the questions in my heart regarding WHO HE IS.

I could easily get into a state of fretting and worry regarding the many areas in my life that are STILL not in line with the WORD of GOD. I usually come across one attitude or another that needs attention.

What I have learned is that PEACE and REST are friends. GOD tells us NOT to fret about ANYTHING.
IT's ALL in God's most capable hands.

Our job is to BLOOM where we are planted.... we are called to LOVE our neighbours... and to live our lives with integrity... both in the light and in the dark. THAT comforts me... to know that NO one gets away with anything.

Again... I thank you for this thread.... it has been an opportunity for deep reflection.

 

[forgiven61]

How can we focus on correct doctrine without devolving into argument? I don't mean in this forum ( which does a great job of policing itself ) but within the global church itself?

My heart tells me love is the answer, but one cannot love someone who refuses to love back. Do we cut ties and go our own way? That leads right back where we already are.

really not sure what your asking.. there should be no argument that can lead to anger ..a good discussion should be in order ..

there is sooooo much Junk out there and yes some of it comes through various Denoms doctrines/teachings . after i got saved my aunt sent sent me southern baptist teachings articles of faith . i was saved in a gen baptist church . i have deep respect for many of the southern baptist ministers. the main emphasis was on the doctrine of salvation eternal security which is the southern baptist belief . general baptist teach you can walk away...

this is not about can you or can you. its about how i studied out the scripture . in my study both have valid points and i am still studying this out today.. so far my conclusion is there is a Know so salvation { that ye may know you have eternal life} when you go asking question to men your going to get a deafferent answer .

so my 2 scriptures i leave you with is . 1 john 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 2
15;Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16;But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17;And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18;Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19;Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.




23;But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

 

[Major]

How can we focus on correct doctrine without devolving into argument? I don't mean in this forum ( which does a great job of policing itself ) but within the global church itself?

My heart tells me love is the answer, but one cannot love someone who refuses to love back. Do we cut ties and go our own way? That leads right back where we already are.

It is a true statement that the knowledge of Jesus Christ brings transformation. He said in John 8:32.....
“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”.

It is also a true statement that eternal salvation depends not just upon believing in Christ but also in believing accurately in Him. He said in John 6:40........“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life…”!

Why does correct Bible Doctrine Matter. The reason is simple:.......
"our view of God affects how we relate to God and others. Wrong doctrine or the misrepresentation of right doctrine has consequences."
Having said that, and given the importance of correct Bible doctrine, it is distressing how biblically illiterate many Christians have become.
The Barna polling company revealed in 2022 that of conservative Protestants, 33% are not sure of the existence of miracles.
38% definitely believe in reincarnation, and 41 % disagree with the statement that people should practice only one faith.

Why can we not talk to others without an argument???? Because most people, especially on Christian forums do not have the gift of proper debating skills! Many....Many people come to a Christian forum to gain fellowship and knowledge from others, however just as many come with a "personal agenda" to try and persuade others into the belief of a false religion. In that way it becomes a way of "works" for them & bringing other into their scope of faith and they think that they now have a better position with the god that they have manufactured in the mind.

Don't think so??? Go back over the pages of this forum and read the posts! What you will see is those who have posted.........
We must be baptized to be saved.
We must go to church on Saturday.
Accepting Christ as our Saviour is an act of "work" on our part.
The Trinity is not 3 persons in one Godhead.
Jesus is actually Michael the arch angel.

All of those and many more are non-Biblical false opinions given from those who are illiterate in the actual Word of God, and when they are shown/proven wrong by the Word of God....they do not have the ability to debate so anger takes over and BOOM!

 

[Major]

I've been pondering on this for a few hours now.
Scripture says this ....

New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, ~2 Timothy 4:3

The above has been going on for decades now.... and this is ALL due to BAD DOCTRINE. UNTRUE TEACHINGS.

This is why a true pastor must undergo years of intensive study of the WORD. I imagine that many if not most Universities have given into the teaching of a NEW and perverted doctrines... and so.... there's that.

However... another problem that I see or believe is.... the ritual of PASSING on the mantle to another either by the death of the patriarch onto his sons or a pastor's CHOOSING of someone with whom he has mentored and/or taught.
The above is dangerous because often... it skips formal education all together with the excuse that GOD HAS ORDAINED it.

WISDOM is a gift given to us by GOD. Scripture states we are to pray for it. It is often a painful gift because it requires one to go against the flow.

I appreciate this thread LearningToLetGo... it has made me to reflect on WHY I believe as I do.

I stand in a position of GRATITUDE that GOD saw fit to address the questions in my heart regarding WHO HE IS.

I could easily get into a state of fretting and worry regarding the many areas in my life that are STILL not in line with the WORD of GOD. I usually come across one attitude or another that needs attention.

What I have learned is that PEACE and REST are friends. GOD tells us NOT to fret about ANYTHING.
IT's ALL in God's most capable hands.

Our job is to BLOOM where we are planted.... we are called to LOVE our neighbours... and to live our lives with integrity... both in the light and in the dark. THAT comforts me... to know that NO one gets away with anything.

Again... I thank you for this thread.... it has been an opportunity for deep reflection.

You are as usual correct.

May I add to your comment the fact that people use the......"the anointing of the Holy Spirit will teach me the Bible" so I do not need to learn what God actually said.

That is nothing more that a power grab. Thise who stand on that use 1 John 2:27 which says......
“As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in Him.”

Now too show you what I mean, This verse is connected to verse 20, which informs us that we “have an anointing from the Holy One.”
That interpretation would contradict the fact that John himself is teaching his readers via the letter. In this context, the apostle is specifically warning against false teachers.
John IS NOT saying that all who desire to be church pastors or teachers can do so without any kind of education. What John is doing is adviseing his readers then and us today to rely on the anointing from God so that they won’t be deceived.

In Johns day, the Gnostics were primarily known for their false, dualistic views and claims of possessing special knowledge from the ANNOINTING!. They believed in the separation of the spiritual and material worlds, regarding the latter as evil. Consequently, they denied the incarnation of Christ and asserted that Jesus never came in the flesh.
This is the Contextual validation and This explains John’s emphasis on the humanity of Jesus and against believing those who spread false doctrines.

 

[Major]

This is such a GOOD question... GOD bless you LearningToLetGo for seeking to find PEACE... LOVE... and RESOLUTION. Your heart is tender and that is PLEASING before the Lord.

The answer is complicated ( in my opinion ).... in that ... ONE SIZE does NOT fit all.

For me... I had a need to walk away from my legalistic family because they are toxic to me. When I say this... I mean... the drama that ensues... the meddling they do in others' lives... the hypocrisy they live in because of hidden and un-confessed sin due to having to HIDE it from others etc... the list goes on.
It made me sick inside to be PRESENT with them for any length of time. THAT was a BOUNDARY I set for me... so that I could live my life in PEACE.

The above example is EXTREME because it involves my actual FAMILY. The result of this ( with regards to your question ) is.... In the scenerio of LEGALISM... there is NO focusing on correct doctrine. THESE people who follow do's and don'ts and harshly cast judgement on others are in a league all of their own. There is no reasoning with them... no speaking to them about things because they will fling scripture at you like it's spaghetti.
For me... the ONLY solution was to make a CLEAN CUT and MOVE on for the sake of PEACE.

On a broader scale.... most doctrinal differences do NOT matter... For as much as I dislike the Catholic Doctrine... my landlords are Catholic... they have NO CLUE how I feel.... because I don't find it necessary to share. WE live together on the same property.... and I love them with all my heart.
There is nothing wrong with being careful on WHAT we support as CHRISTIANS. In my opinion... it is necessary to stand against FALSEHOODS... but it does not mean we throw out the baby with the bathwater. ( Do people still use this term ?? ).

The bible tells us to live in PEACE... as much as is possible. What you are seeking is indeed possible and I think it does exist.

WE need to know our limitations. I have set mine very high but I am serious about GUARDING MY HEART.

There are some churches I would NEVER walk into.... and so.... I guess I would miss out on fellowship in the CHURCH BUILDING... but I would gladly break bread with these people. I just would NOT get into the doctrinal differences between us.

You said......
"There are some churches I would NEVER walk into.... and so.... I guess I would miss out on fellowship in the CHURCH BUILDING".

True!.

I have been in many Churches. I have been to weddings and funerals in Catholic, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, 7th Day Advan., Mormon and even a JW'S Kingdom Hall. I visited but I would never, ever attend any teaching or preaching events or speak any doctrine in them.

Now I was once asked to preach at a Catholic friends funeral in a Catholic church. I am here to tell you that when I preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead......you would have thought that I was a Russian invading the church.

 

[In Awe of Him]

You are as usual correct.

I squirmed when I read this. HA. I think sometimes I come across as a know-it-all because I will NOT compromise on my beliefs... and I have been very vocal about the topic of BAD doctrine. In real life... I don't have ANYTHING to say to ANYONE about this topic.

BECAUSE I have had to wrestle so hard with finding the truth of WHO GOD IS... and my "status" of salvation ( meaning my security of salvation )... NOW that I have a GRASP on WHO HE IS and WHO I AM IN CHRIST........ NO ONE is going to tamper with that... and if it means walking away from BAD doctrine then so be it. I honestly don't have a problem doing that.

For the most part... I am able to keep my beliefs to myself so that it is very possible to live in PEACE with one another. The only difference is like you have pointed out below..... I WILL NOT let these churches TEACH me. I will break bread... I will fellowship... I will go on visits... and I will engage in authentic conversation about the things we have in common.

I visited but I would never, ever attend any teaching or preaching events or speak any doctrine in them.

Again... this all boils down to the balance of living in PEACE but at the same time... REJECTING the things that matter in a firm but loving manner.

Forums are unique in that.... it is simply one person arguing their points OVER another. I would like to think in face to face communication... people take a breath to sip on their coffee while talking about their beliefs.

This issue for me is NOT about being right ... It is about genuinely SEEKING the TRUTH. For me... all I wanted to know what WHO GOD IS...from that... all else has fallen into place for me. I don't care to debate the end times... or the history of the earth or space for that matter. I simply desire to ENJOY the CREATION of ALMIGHTY GOD. The fact that HE is EVERYTHING the bible says HE is occupies my thoughts constantly... and from that .... I receive such PEACE and great JOY.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Experience plays a large part in this. One person has personal experience with God: for example an accident, illness or other visceral event; while another knows text on a page. Body vs mind. One is not necessarily better or worse but it's difficult if not impossible to cross the lines between the two. The language does not exist. At least that's my perception.

 

[bobinfaith]

I might be missing something you were TRYING to tell me...I agree that forgiveness is something we have to work on. I have had to do this with my family... however... I also chose to walk away from them due to their toxic legalistic beliefs. For me... it boils down to what one chooses to ACCEPT in their life. I don't do drama... I don't accept unnecessary turmoil in my life simply because someone is my family. Sometimes it is easier to close the door and walk away for the sake of peace. As for assessing doctrine of different churches... I don't see that forgiveness plays a part in the judgement of DOCTRINE as this does NOT involve an actual person... but rather a series of teachings. Sorry bobinfaith...I think I have misunderstood your post....Da Sheep is slow sometimes.

You said......
"There are some churches I would NEVER walk into.... and so.... I guess I would miss out on fellowship in the CHURCH BUILDING". True!. I have been in many Churches. I have been to weddings and funerals in Catholic, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, 7th Day Advan., Mormon and even a JW'S Kingdom Hall. I visited but I would never, ever attend any teaching or preaching events or speak any doctrine in them. Now I was once asked to preach at a Catholic friends funeral in a Catholic church. I am here to tell you that when I preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead......you would have thought that I was a Russian invading the church.

Good morning, In Awe of Him;

At times when you admit you misunderstand, take all the time you want. Just like many others in this thread, I also teach Bible studies and many men and women ask questions. We're all seeking God's answers which may also lead and inspire others to participate. This is beneficial for everyone.

I was referring to your 4 points within the Churches. I can relate to your experience. In my experience what I learned was how God got me past the points with forgiveness toward that Church, or individual. Unfortunately it did not lead to reconciliation but forgiveness was important. It also led me to "close the door and walk away for the sake of peace."

As far as your family, is important, but that is a different dynamic. I'm referring to the "scope of the Churches" with an assembly of members that wouldn't budge.

Just like Major, I also officiate funerals and at times I'm asked to keep in mind their religion or non religion. I cannot speak what man wants me to say. This is not a rehearsal with scripted lines. I must obey the Word that Christ commands me. When a family loses a loved one it's time to come to grips that God's Hand is in this. My message is to uplift the family in mourning and also to share God's only Beloved, Begotten Son.

I have yet had a family balk at me for sharing the Gospel and I found that attendees at a funeral discover the Love and Hope in the afterlife with Christ.

Next Friday I'm officiating a funeral for a family that were former members of a Oneness religion called Iglesia de Cristo, ironically in English, the Church of Christ. This religion does not believe Jesus is the Son of God, only that Jesus was a good man and prophet. Their former church would not help them because they left for reasons of their false teaching (per one of the points In Awe of Him mentioned earlier in her post.)

God bless you all.

Bob

 

[Alter2Ego]

I find it difficult to get too attached to any specific belief or creed. One person says this, another that and both can justify their position with verses of the Bible. Personally I take a "both, and" approach over an "either, or". If two people say things that are logically inconsistent, okay, I can possibly accept that. Who am I to tell God how the world should work? Do I complain about thermodynamics or gravity? it's quite silly.

That's my take. Perhaps I'm wrong. That's fine with me. I accept God's will, whatever it may be.

Actually, LearningToLetGod, two people with opposing viewpoints about scripture cannot both be right. The Bible does not contradict itself, so one, or both persons, would turn out to be wrong.

 

[bobinfaith]

Actually, LearningToLetGod, two people with opposing viewpoints about scripture cannot both be right. The Bible does not contradict itself, so one, or both persons, would turn out to be wrong.

Hello Alter2Ego;

Welcome back to Christian Forum Site, sister. It's been a few years.

What LearningToLetGo is referring to are two interpretations between two people having a discussion. I'm encouraged by this, at least people are discussing the Bible.

You make a good point and what you are referring to is an erroneous misunderstanding of a Bible verse between two people in a discussion. For sake of example,

In Matthew 7:7-8, 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. - ESV

In Revelation 3:20, 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. - ESV

By this an erroneous misunderstanding or viewpoint of Scripture could be stated, that by the power of the Holy Spirit Jesus will actually come down and knock on your door and you will find Him. Wrong.

An extreme example of a misunderstanding of Scripture differs from interpretation.

God bless you, Alter2Ego.

Bob

 

[forgiven61]

What LearningToLetGo is referring to are two interpretations between two people having a discussion. I'm encouraged by this, at least people are discussing the Bible.

you make a good point but its almost nearly impossible .. let me give a example when i was called to preach and wanted to be ordained .. they took me and examined me .. one of the pastors in the presbytery asked me about osas . they being gen baptist didnt believe in it.. it seems to my reply was i am secure in Christ.. either way it was a good enough answer . there are certain topics you cant discuss i have a good pastor friend great guy.. but certain areas we dont agree on..

i think i could do it i would love sit down with a jewish preacher that rejects n.t and ask questions some years back i was talking to a lady and she said the join her Church you had be baptized into the denomination.. i asked where that was in the Bible. she didnt know.. but her pastor could tell me..

some are so indoctrinated its all they can see . a pastor went on to join a different denom . a pastor said i hate to see you leave the body .

i have learned in studying to think outside the box . i will say most every thing i have learned has been on my own.

i have preached in southern baptist Church enjoyed it preached Bible i went back to the umc i was raised in preached Bible preached in non denoms . the church i pastor now.. its general baptist but i am not run by the gen baptist .. we welcome all because its about Jesus not a church name .

i may have kicked the golden cow of religion ..but many are either spiritual or religious or both thats my 2 cents with my experience in talking with others

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Actually, LearningToLetGod, two people with opposing viewpoints about scripture cannot both be right. The Bible does not contradict itself, so one, or both persons, would turn out to be wrong.

Yet we still have dozens of denominations. If everyone agreed, there'd be only one.