As you wish, just let your heart be in it.
Proverbs 21:2 (KJV)
Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
Icons and Prayer Ropes???
- Thread starter ABabeInChrist
- Start date
Proverbs 21:2 (KJV)
Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
Not sin, useless. Faith in a prayer is not faith. You're focusing on the act and not what it means and to Whom it's addressed to. What if you only said the exact same thing to your friend over and over. Would your friend even bother to listen anymore? What applies on earth is what applies in Heaven. It's about faith, not scripted words. That's my point. You're putting faith into a set of words that are void of the emotion, the feelings, the essence of who we are and why we cry unto God.
Someone once said just before an accident they yelled out "Jesus" and they were not hurt. That one-word prayer had more power in it than reciting the entire word of God. That's my point.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
I focus on those scripted words every time I say them. They are a very well-chosen and well-organized set of words. For the same reason, Catholics say the Hail Mary prayer many times and focus and meditate on the words being spoken. They are by no means empty words with no importance, as I said, they are the opposite of that. But it's what's in our hearts that counts. I will not judge another person in this regard because they might be focusing on the words are much as I am myself.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
I did find this link earlier that deals with the idea of the Lord's Prayer being a "vain repetition" - I searched because I had never heard that charge before.
http://www.fisheaters.com/vainrepetitions.html
http://www.fisheaters.com/vainrepetitions.html
What matters IS what is in the person's heart when saying it.
God understands where we are on our journey. As the toddler wants his favorite toy, or needs her favorite blanky to feel secure and consoled, we parents understand they need them. I think God understands that those who rely on repeating those prayers over and over, like to say them, for it makes them feel secure and consoled. It's not sinful or bad per se, just does not carry the same weight as prayer from the heart. It is worth saying from time to time as it is instructive to us as to how we should pray, i.e. what our attitude should be.
I just read the hail Mary prayer, the first two times I read it, I was appalled, but I assumed I was missing something, so I read it again with a more analytical attitude, and I think I understand it now. Here it is:
Hail, holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Pray for us, O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen.
It is a little confusing, at first I read it as the prayer is saying Mary is "our life, our sweetness and our hope", but I assume it was a continuance of listing what she was the mother of. At least I hope that is the meaning of this prayer. It could have been worded better. Still find it wrong to call her "most gracious advocate", and to say she has the "eyes of mercy".
God understands where we are on our journey. As the toddler wants his favorite toy, or needs her favorite blanky to feel secure and consoled, we parents understand they need them. I think God understands that those who rely on repeating those prayers over and over, like to say them, for it makes them feel secure and consoled. It's not sinful or bad per se, just does not carry the same weight as prayer from the heart. It is worth saying from time to time as it is instructive to us as to how we should pray, i.e. what our attitude should be.
I just read the hail Mary prayer, the first two times I read it, I was appalled, but I assumed I was missing something, so I read it again with a more analytical attitude, and I think I understand it now. Here it is:
Hail, holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Pray for us, O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen.
It is a little confusing, at first I read it as the prayer is saying Mary is "our life, our sweetness and our hope", but I assume it was a continuance of listing what she was the mother of. At least I hope that is the meaning of this prayer. It could have been worded better. Still find it wrong to call her "most gracious advocate", and to say she has the "eyes of mercy".
Giving us some homework, are we?
A good site found on this- http://www.gotquestions.org/Queen-of-Heaven.html
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
That is quite an anti-Catholic website, but I suppose it balances out the pro-Catholic link I posted.
So...
Illiterate believers in a society that didn't place a huge emphasis on literacy..
+
Very little access to the written scripture of God because the scripture was HAND COPIED..... which makes a copy of the scripture extremely expensive.... as in more than 1-year's wages! AND.. it also makes the actual scriptures themselves very uncommon... They may have had ONE copy of scripture for an entire church!
So... What did they fall back on?
They HAD to fall back upon memorization and familiarity....
They fell back on
Hymns
Icons
Prayer ropes
and stuff like this....
So... The Icons depict specific stories.... When you look at an Icon - it is supposed to remind you of the specifics of an important passage of scripture....
Prayer ropes - typically have one certain prayer associated with each bead or whatever... This once again becomes a mnemonic of sorts to remember certain scriptural prayers....
Hymns.... Same thing... Put important scripture to Music and sing together.... Aids memorization of the scriptures....
So.. Is this a BAD thing? Nope. In fact, it was critical in those days...
We completely take for granted that ONE of the huge "Fuels" for the reformation was the printing press... Because with the Printing press - you could crank out copies of the ACTUAL scripture itself... You no longer had to rely on people's memory or finding that ONE literate person or whether hymns and prayers WERE scriptural or not... You could go straight back to the Scripture itself...
Illiterate believers in a society that didn't place a huge emphasis on literacy..
+
Very little access to the written scripture of God because the scripture was HAND COPIED..... which makes a copy of the scripture extremely expensive.... as in more than 1-year's wages! AND.. it also makes the actual scriptures themselves very uncommon... They may have had ONE copy of scripture for an entire church!
So... What did they fall back on?
They HAD to fall back upon memorization and familiarity....
They fell back on
Hymns
Icons
Prayer ropes
and stuff like this....
So... The Icons depict specific stories.... When you look at an Icon - it is supposed to remind you of the specifics of an important passage of scripture....
Prayer ropes - typically have one certain prayer associated with each bead or whatever... This once again becomes a mnemonic of sorts to remember certain scriptural prayers....
Hymns.... Same thing... Put important scripture to Music and sing together.... Aids memorization of the scriptures....
So.. Is this a BAD thing? Nope. In fact, it was critical in those days...
We completely take for granted that ONE of the huge "Fuels" for the reformation was the printing press... Because with the Printing press - you could crank out copies of the ACTUAL scripture itself... You no longer had to rely on people's memory or finding that ONE literate person or whether hymns and prayers WERE scriptural or not... You could go straight back to the Scripture itself...
See that's the problem... today there's so much Scripture no one reads it anymore... everything else comes first except the Foundation (Jesus) and the word of God He's given us.
Regarding the difference between the Catholic crucifix and the plain and simple Christian cross: I've always thought they are different because Catholicism focuses on the death of Jesus; while Christianity focuses on His Resurrection.
Has anyone else thought about this? Or, if this not the reason, maybe someone could explain the difference to me in another way.
Has anyone else thought about this? Or, if this not the reason, maybe someone could explain the difference to me in another way.
I had never heard this perspective before. It makes sense that people could have used these devices for memorization. However, since we have such easy access to the Scriptures today, why continue the use of these devices?
Hi Calvin~
What do you mean "But I think it wrong to judge another's servant. They will answer just as we will." ? I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental. Both the death and resurrection of Jesus are equally important. I am hoping for an explanation of why the difference in the two types of crosses. ...am very tired tonight and maybe not choosing my words wisely. Thank you for your input.
Ahh yeah sorry, I was just projecting my own fears I guess. I meant no personal accusation. In fact, I posted a 'like' so I had no problem with your post.
I can't answer for the Catholics, but I guess without the crucifixion, there would be no resurrection, so in their minds maybe since they can't have both, they elected to go for the first?
I can't answer for the Catholics, but I guess without the crucifixion, there would be no resurrection, so in their minds maybe since they can't have both, they elected to go for the first?
A quote I ran across in a bible study book of mine, said that the empty tomb would make a better icon for the Christian faith than the cross. Really made me think.
But it is harder to make a necklace with an icon of the empty tomb than it is the cross.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
Here's another perspective. We are not brought to salvation by two boards. We are brought to salvation by the man who hung there.
Ahh yeah sorry, I was just projecting my own fears I guess. I meant no personal accusation. In fact, I posted a 'like' so I had no problem with your post.
I can't answer for the Catholics, but I guess without the crucifixion, there would be no resurrection, so in their minds maybe since they can't have both, they elected to go for the first?
That's very possible, calvin. I would like to hear from others too... if anyone has any idea to explain the difference?
Absolutely!
There are many churches today who even remove the cross icon entirely from their service, outdoor decor and interior decor. I'm not sure I would go that far...it would make me wonder if everyone understood what they were there for.
