In the world, not of it

[JohnC]

I have been thinking a lot about the whole "Deliverance from ourselves" that I talked about some here: http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/sometimes-the-deliverance-we-need-is-from-ourselves.42264/

and "in the world, not of it" seemed to dovetail into it..... kinda...

Except the scripture doesn't quite say "You are to be in the world, not of it"...
If you look at John 17:14-19 - a better paraphrase would be "You are not of the world, but are sent into it"

If you think about the beginning and ending points....
"In the world, not of it" - The starting point is "IN the world" - and ending "not Of the world"... This implies that we can't escape the world whether we like it or not, but the real goal is to somehow scrub off all of the influence of the world.... That the real transforming power of The Holy Spirit is to work "The world" back out of us... And thus - "Holiness" is really about throwing off the things of this world, hate the world, etc while living in the muck....

But - is this what Jesus really said?
Let's look at the John 17 passage:
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

He is STARTING off with a position "I have given them thy word" - which RESULTS IN the condition of "They are not of the world"... which sounds strikingly like "In the world and not of it" - except Jesus is aiming for something more than this... Not just "Not of the world".... The REAL Ending point - "Even so I have Sent into the world"....

See - The primary goal of Jesus ministry is NOT just to just make us "Not of this world" - that's a result of what happens because of the transformative power of The Love of God and His Word.. And - because we are not "One of them" anymore - the net result is that they will hate us... In fact - ironically, we get goaded into mistakenly trying to put forth a lot of effort to get the world to love us or to try to beat ourselves back into loving the things the world loves.... (1st John 2:15 - but that's another discussion for another post...)

Notice the operative part.... SENT into the world.... We aren't here to pine away as we tolerate the muck... To long for something better when we die... We are here to show the world the light that is within us... To not be afraid of just living and showing what God brings to the table.. To "Illuminate" how empty and sad they are without Him.. The pain and agony of being trapped in bondage to sin... AND - to offer this SAME Light to those trapped in darkness - just as it was made available to us when we were trapped in darkness...

So...
"Given His word, Not of the world, but SENT into it"...

 

[JohnP]

We are here to show the world the light that is within us

I ask this of God in my daily prayers - that I may better shine His light to the world and those around me. It is something I am trying to be better at. I am somewhat shy, so it is difficult for me.

 

[JohnC]

So... To expand on this a bit....

"Show the light"... This is "Bring forth Fruit" .. and what is the Fruit of the Spirt?
LOVE...
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility....

This is what the unbelieving world envies and desires about Christians... That we experience love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility as we go through life - even through rough situations.... and what comes along with that - a better shot at keeping families together... A better shot at lasting friendship... Not basing working relationships and decisions upon narcissism, power, and greed...

It's not handing out tracks or bothering folks in the super market - it's your outlook on life... It's the way you conduct your daily life...

See - notice how the secular world talks a great game about "Ethics" and "Social responsibility", "Family values", and "Character" - but what do they actually practice? Greed, narcissism, power mongering, destroying others for their own gain, trying to put on an impressive show for others, trying to look good at other's expense, etc... The sort of stuff that the more I am pushed to do it at work - the more I hate the place....

Thanks

 

[Arrie03]

Yes, I like what you are saying here, good thoughts for us.
So Jesus gave us the word of God, and in the quoted passage, their is a semicolon following that statement, so it links that statement to the following one. So can we say, the world hates us because of the word of God? Sound to me like it. And also for this reason we are not of this world, because we have received and accepted the word of God, which the world has rejected. But we are still in the world and must remain in it for "their" sake, but then Jesus prays for us to be protected from the evils of that world. Man I tell you, that is precious to me. Jesus also prays for us to be sanctifies by the truth, the Word. The same Word which the world has rejected.
Since the sending us into the world follows being sanctified by the Word, can one see this as kind of a hint? Probably. We cannot go into the world if we have not yet been sanctified by the Word. Just for the record, in the back of my mind I still state that Jesus Himself is the Word, but sanctified is a something that happens deep within us.
Chronological flow - I like it.

 

[Arrie03]

So... To expand on this a bit....

"Show the light"... This is "Bring forth Fruit" .. and what is the Fruit of the Spirt?
LOVE...
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility....

This is what the unbelieving world envies and desires about Christians... That we experience love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility as we go through life - even through rough situations.... and what comes along with that - a better shot at keeping families together... A better shot at lasting friendship... Not basing working relationships and decisions upon narcissism, power, and greed...

It's not handing out tracks or bothering folks in the super market - it's your outlook on life... It's the way you conduct your daily life...

See - notice how the secular world talks a great game about "Ethics" and "Social responsibility", "Family values", and "Character" - but what do they actually practice? Greed, narcissism, power mongering, destroying others for their own gain, trying to put on an impressive show for others, trying to look good at other's expense, etc... The sort of stuff that the more I am pushed to do it at work - the more I hate the place....

Thanks

Yes I know what you say.
About one year ago one morning I walked into work, and stood inside the door of the office.
In a load voice a proclaimed, I reject to be subject to the principles of this world, to conform to the below-par standards being forced onto me as I do not belong to this kingdom and refuse to be bound by it. One person was excited and clapped hands, others stared.
Shortly afterwards I was asked to take a transfer elsewhere - which was much better for my family and myself and even though I now work shifts, we are more free from yucky nonsense and strife than before, and by His grace are more independent as a family.
So cool.

 

[JohnP]

This is what the unbelieving world envies and desires about Christians... That we experience love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility as we go through life - even through rough situations.... and what comes along with that - a better shot at keeping families together...

I can testify to this personally. Back in the 90's, I was having a really tough time emotionally and spiritually. My wife was (is) a deeply devoted Christian. I left her and my kids twice and moved into an apartment. We were separated for 6 months the first time, and a year the second time. Through the whole terrible ordeal - what I put her through, what was undoubtedly the lowest point of her life, all of the above that you mentioned - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, humility - never ceased in her. Her love for Jesus seemed to grow, as a matter of fact. I longed to experience that love and peace, and so I cried out to Jesus. She showed me, without saying a word, what I needed, that it was God that was missing from my life. Our marriage and family was saved, and we will be married 34 years this June. We've been married since we were 19! All because even during one of the roughest times in her life, she showed me the love of God.

So yes, it is what non-believers envy and desire about Christians. It is what Jesus preached.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I have been thinking a lot about the whole "Deliverance from ourselves" that I talked about some here: http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/sometimes-the-deliverance-we-need-is-from-ourselves.42264/


and "in the world, not of it" seemed to dovetail into it..... kinda...


Except the scripture doesn't quite say "You are to be in the world, not of it"...

If you look at John 17:14-19 - a better paraphrase would be "You are not of the world, but are sent into it"


If you think about the beginning and ending points....

"In the world, not of it" - The starting point is "IN the world" - and ending "not Of the world"... This implies that we can't escape the world whether we like it or not, but the real goal is to somehow scrub off all of the influence of the world.... That the real transforming power of The Holy Spirit is to work "The world" back out of us... And thus - "Holiness" is really about throwing off the things of this world, hate the world, etc while living in the muck....


But - is this what Jesus really said?

Let's look at the John 17 passage:

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."


He is STARTING off with a position "I have given them thy word" - which RESULTS IN the condition of "They are not of the world"... which sounds strikingly like "In the world and not of it" - except Jesus is aiming for something more than this... Not just "Not of the world".... The REAL Ending point - "Even so I have Sent into the world"....


See - The primary goal of Jesus ministry is NOT just to just make us "Not of this world" - that's a result of what happens because of the transformative power of The Love of God and His Word.. And - because we are not "One of them" anymore - the net result is that they will hate us... In fact - ironically, we get goaded into mistakenly trying to put forth a lot of effort to get the world to love us or to try to beat ourselves back into loving the things the world loves.... (1st John 2:15 - but that's another discussion for another post...)


Notice the operative part.... SENT into the world.... We aren't here to pine away as we tolerate the muck... To long for something better when we die... We are here to show the world the light that is within us... To not be afraid of just living and showing what God brings to the table.. To "Illuminate" how empty and sad they are without Him.. The pain and agony of being trapped in bondage to sin... AND - to offer this SAME Light to those trapped in darkness - just as it was made available to us when we were trapped in darkness...


So...

"Given His word, Not of the world, but SENT into it"...

We are to separate our selves from the worlds ways of doing things and live according to His written word. We are to operate under kingdom rules and when we do this we reflect the true Love of the Father and His blessing draws them to us.

We are to do our very best in His strength to live at peace with every one. Now as it is written love thy neighbor as your self or Love the Brethren EVEN AS HE LOVES THE BRETHREN then it is kind of hard to not live at peace with those in our lives.

Walking in Love and Forgiveness is not only a command first but it also pleases the Father.
When we walk in Love and Forgiveness it gives God something to work with for He can not work in strife and hate but in Love and thus we have Love and pray for our enemies. Why ? Because we may be the only channel they have to God and God is always looking for His word and when we speak His word and operate in His word we allow God to move.

When we separate our selves from the world and it's ways we begin to walk in the Spirit and the flesh has no chance of dominating our lives. Now then do not get .....love not the things of the world as this religious viewing of this. Religion tells us we are not to have things or nice things but that is false.

God is Love.......LOVE is God.....We love God and His word and His ways and we love people but anything else do not dare love them.
Scripture tells us He gives us all things richly to enjoy. So enjoy your new house or car or enjoy hamburgers but don't you dare love them for God is Love.
So love not the things of this world.........God did not say we could not enjoy them or really like them and be real here for He is not talking about sin or anything that is opposed to His word.

We are His light and His mouth and hands and so forth in this world. Now then say God has a cut out of who you should be or how you should fit according to His plan for your life and He has you stand up before it right here and right now.......How would you fit to His cut out of you ? Think about that...........
Blessings
Jim

 

[Peter Luke]

Hello JohnC.
This is my understanding of this scripture which is Jesus praying to Gog/Father for His Disciples.
My interpretation is based on Jesus Christ's self reference as a Spiritual Being from God. The world is people referencing life from the ego-self, or false-self, as opposed to their spiritual self.
NIV John 17:14-19
14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jesus Christ gave them (disciples) the truth and the world (false selves) hated them (disciples of truth), for they (disciples) are not of the world (false selves) any more than I am (Spiritual Being) of the world (false-selves)
15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
My prayer is not that you take them (disciples) out of the world (world of false-selves) but that you protect them from the evil one (falsehood).
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
(The disciples) are not of the (false-selves), even as I am (Spiritual Being) not of it.
17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Sanctify them (the disciples) by the truth; your (God) word is truth.
18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
As you (God) sent me (Spiritual Being) into the world (world of false-selves), I (Spiritual Being) have sent them (disciples) into the world (world of false-selves).
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
For them (disciples) I sanctify myself (Spiritual Being), that they (disciples) too may by truly sanctified.