Irrefutable proof that Jesus was created

Juk

Account Closed
Not in the case of Jesus, who needed no regeneration in any of that sense, nor renewal, et cetera...but He did need Holy Spirit to anoint Him and launch Him into ministry, which occurred at His water baptism.
Is that regeneration?
 
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Isaiah 53:2-5
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised,
and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Colossians 1:13-19
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions,
or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
 
Hebrews 1:5 KJV
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

No more denying.
I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion based on this verse! It simply says what Father does not say to angels. that's all. You cannot try to come with something the verse does not say. Assuming something a verse does not talk about would always lead to false beliefs
 
Is that regeneration?

Not in the literal sense, but Holy Spirit moved in and upon the ministry of Jesus Christ at His baptism, thus regenerating Himself in the life of the man, Jesus Christ for the next three years of His earthly life.
 
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Not in the literal sense, but Holy Spirit moved in and upon the ministry of Jesus Christ at His baptism, thus regenerating Himself in the life of the man, Jesus Christ for the next three years of His earthly life.

Thanks for that, sometimes Juk will raised some good "literalist" questions that a literalist that I am ponder on : )

Of course: begotten not in the physical/literal sense, rather spiritual sense of the word...

John 1:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 

Juk

Account Closed
Not in the literal sense, but Holy Spirit moved in and upon the ministry of Jesus Christ at His baptism, thus regenerating Himself in the life of the man, Jesus Christ for the next three years of His earthly life.
I guess I can see how that works.
 
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So someone wrote that...long ago. What's that proof of exactly? Gods free will allows anyone to "deny it". I can write on a sheet of toilet paper that my can of caviar spoke to me and predicted my future, it doesn't mean that 2,000 years from now anyone should believe it.
-someone looking for some rational proof of the extraordinary claims

God's word, the scriptures, does not compare with any one book written by man. It has never failed to be true.
 
Some people like the Jehovahs Witnesses believe Jesus was a created being. In fact they believe he is the archangel Michael. I don't know if the poster meant that, but here's a list of why that's not so. Also this list will help if you run into any Jehovahs Witnesses :)
The Ultimate Answers to Prove Biblically that Jesus and Michael the Arc Angel are NOT the Same Person
EVIDENCE #1: Nowhere in the Scriptures does it explicitly state that Jesus is Michael the archangel.
EVIDENCE #2: The Scriptures contrast Jesus with angels specifically showcasing there differences.
"So he [the Son] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)
"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?" (Hebrews 1:5)
EVIDENCE #3: Michael is called "ONE OF the Chief Princes" (Daniel 10:13), which shows he is NOT unique as he is among equals (other Chief Princes). However, by contrast, The Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 ("For God so Loved the world that He gave his ONLY Son...") is monogenes-which Literally means "unique," "one of a kind." Jesus is NOT one among equals.
EVIDENCE #4: Again, Michael is called "one of the CHIEF PRINCES" (Daniel 10:13), Jesus however, is NEVER called Chief Prince in the scriptures, but instead called KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, which is far superior to a mere chief prince.
EVIDENCE #5: If no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5) how can Jesus be an angel when He is to be RULER of Gods Kingdom (Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 2:6, Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 2:1-2; 9:35, Revelation 19:16)
EVIDENCE #6: If no angel can be called Gods Son (Hebrews 1:5), the very FACT that Jesus IS the SON of God makes Him not an angel.
EVIDENCE #7: The Scripture tells us that Jesus is "The same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8), so He could not have been an angel, them a human, and then Recreated as an angel again.
EVIDENCE #8: When disputing the body of Moses with satan (Jude 9), Michael could NOT Rebuke him in his own authority, while by contrast, Jesus could and DID Rebuke satan In His own authority. And if Jesus, as Jehovahs Witnesses claim was given the power and authority to create everything, which means He created and had authority over the angels, including satan, but he still could not rebuke satan, means there is a huge hole in the Jehovahs Witnesses theory.
EVIDENCE #9: In Jude 9, Michael said to satan, "The LORD rebuke you." The Greek word for Lord is Kurios. It is the standard word for "Lord" in the New Testament. It is a direct parellel to YHWY or Jehovah in the Old Testament. And while Jesus is called Lord (Kurios) many times in the New Testament, Michael the angel is NEVER called Kurios.
EVIDENCE #10: Jesus has flesh and bone while Michael is a Spirit without flesh and bone. Jesus was Resurrected in a BODY which He still has.
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY." (John 2:19-21)
"... He was not abandoned to Hades, nor His flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31). Why didn't His flesh "see corruption?" Because He was raised in a material, fleshly body.

CRITICS: The first scripture a critic will point to is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
There are several things wrong with this theory.
EVIDENCE #1: it ignores All the Evidence Above
EVIDENCE #2: Nowhere in this Scripture verse does it say Jesus is Michael.
EVIDENCE #3: When the Scripture says THE archangel, it doesn't say there's only one. It is one of identification as a well-known archangel instead of a limitation as the ONLY archangel. As Michael is described as ONE OF the Chief Princes (Daniel 10:13). Much like if there were 5 policemen, and you wanted to show which one saved your life, you'd say, "THE police officer Michael," identifying by their name, which one of the same rank (policemen/chief princes) saved you.
Evidence #4: If reference to an archangels voice makes Jesus an angel, by the very same logic, Jesus having Gods Trumpet makes Him God.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1437632798.510905.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1437632837.176741.jpg
 

Juk

Account Closed
Some people like the Jehovahs Witnesses believe Jesus was a created being. In fact they believe he is the archangel Michael. I don't know if the poster meant that, but here's a list of why that's not so. Also this list will help if you run into any Jehovahs Witnesses :)
The Ultimate Answers to Prove Biblically that Jesus and Michael the Arc Angel are NOT the Same Person
EVIDENCE #1: Nowhere in the Scriptures does it explicitly state that Jesus is Michael the archangel.
EVIDENCE #2: The Scriptures contrast Jesus with angels specifically showcasing there differences.
"So he [the Son] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)
"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?" (Hebrews 1:5)
EVIDENCE #3: Michael is called "ONE OF the Chief Princes" (Daniel 10:13), which shows he is NOT unique as he is among equals (other Chief Princes). However, by contrast, The Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 ("For God so Loved the world that He gave his ONLY Son...") is monogenes-which Literally means "unique," "one of a kind." Jesus is NOT one among equals.
EVIDENCE #4: Again, Michael is called "one of the CHIEF PRINCES" (Daniel 10:13), Jesus however, is NEVER called Chief Prince in the scriptures, but instead called KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, which is far superior to a mere chief prince.
EVIDENCE #5: If no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5) how can Jesus be an angel when He is to be RULER of Gods Kingdom (Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 2:6, Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 2:1-2; 9:35, Revelation 19:16)
EVIDENCE #6: If no angel can be called Gods Son (Hebrews 1:5), the very FACT that Jesus IS the SON of God makes Him not an angel.
EVIDENCE #7: The Scripture tells us that Jesus is "The same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8), so He could not have been an angel, them a human, and then Recreated as an angel again.
EVIDENCE #8: When disputing the body of Moses with satan (Jude 9), Michael could NOT Rebuke him in his own authority, while by contrast, Jesus could and DID Rebuke satan In His own authority. And if Jesus, as Jehovahs Witnesses claim was given the power and authority to create everything, which means He created and had authority over the angels, including satan, but he still could not rebuke satan, means there is a huge hole in the Jehovahs Witnesses theory.
EVIDENCE #9: In Jude 9, Michael said to satan, "The LORD rebuke you." The Greek word for Lord is Kurios. It is the standard word for "Lord" in the New Testament. It is a direct parellel to YHWY or Jehovah in the Old Testament. And while Jesus is called Lord (Kurios) many times in the New Testament, Michael the angel is NEVER called Kurios.
EVIDENCE #10: Jesus has flesh and bone while Michael is a Spirit without flesh and bone. Jesus was Resurrected in a BODY which He still has.
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY." (John 2:19-21)
"... He was not abandoned to Hades, nor His flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31). Why didn't His flesh "see corruption?" Because He was raised in a material, fleshly body.

CRITICS: The first scripture a critic will point to is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
There are several things wrong with this theory.
EVIDENCE #1: it ignores All the Evidence Above
EVIDENCE #2: Nowhere in this Scripture verse does it say Jesus is Michael.
EVIDENCE #3: When the Scripture says THE archangel, it doesn't say there's only one. It is one of identification as a well-known archangel instead of a limitation as the ONLY archangel. As Michael is described as ONE OF the Chief Princes (Daniel 10:13). Much like if there were 5 policemen, and you wanted to show which one saved your life, you'd say, "THE police officer Michael," identifying by their name, which one of the same rank (policemen/chief princes) saved you.
Evidence #4: If reference to an archangels voice makes Jesus an angel, by the very same logic, Jesus having Gods Trumpet makes Him God.
View attachment 1898
View attachment 1899
I would never believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. That is blasphemy and not supported by Scripture.
 

geralduk

Inactive
Hebrews 1:5 KJV
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

No more denying.
The first Adam was created from the dust of the earth.
The last Adam was BORN of a woman .
No man since the first Adam has been created they have all been BORN.
Jesus was not created but conceived in a womans womb .
To be "begotten" is not created but to be BORN .
The first Adam was created from the dust of the earth .The woman created from the body of the man.
You I and Jesus were born of a woman .
That is why you need to be BORNagain .
Or one reason why.
When God promised Adam and Eve that there would come ("it)male child ("he") born of a woman but not of Adams seed .God was speaking of Jesus Christ the Word made flesh .
For he was n ot born of Adams seed ,For Mary "knew not a man" But what did Jesus say? "The seed is the Word" The Word of God was made flesh .
The first Adam was of the earth and to the earth he shall return .
The last Adam was of heaven and to heaven he returned .
So then he said "ye must be born again" not of the corruptable seed which is of the first Adam but of the incorruptable seed which is the Word of God .The last Adam.
For that which is born of earth is of the earth and that which is born of heaven is of heaven.
and we by nature are "shapen in iniquity" and are in the image of Adam .
We needs must be born again in the image of God of the last Adam . For Jesus "is the express image of the invisible God "

Jesus was not therefore created . What he was when he walked this earth in the garden of eden was what eh was in the garden of gethsemane and what he is today . For he is the same yesterday, today and forever.

in Christ
gerald
 
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geralduk

Inactive
First, the words "only begotten" do not mean that Christ was created (as the heretic Arius taught). Rather they mean that He was "unique," "specially blessed," or "favored." Theologian John F. Walvoord in his classic book "Jesus Christ our Lord" rightly points out:
"The thought is clearly that Christ is the begotten of God in the sense that no other is."
Scholar Benjamin Warfield likewise comments: "the adjective 'only begotten' conveys the idea, not of derivation and subordination, but of uniqueness and consubstantiality: Jesus is all that God is, and He alone is this."

People should not b e afraid of the word "begotten" if you want to understand what the word begotten means then you onlu=y need to go to the book of Genesis.
He is the ONLY begotten Son of the Father .
if we are true born children of God then we are by the will of God "begotten again by the will of God through Jesus Christ .
We too are "begotten " then. and are true sons of God . But Jesus beign the first BORN (not created) was the ONLY one begotten of the father. We through Jesus Christ.

in Christ
gerald
 
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