Is Getting Baptised Needed?

Euphemia said:
Well, where a person has not been baptized, but dies, he will go on to be with Christ, as he was saved---all without being dunked.
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I pointed that out. A good example of this is the thief on the Cross who repented before Jesus. He wasn't baptized. He was moments away from death.

This was someone, despite everything, at the last minute submitted himself fully to God even though his life was right about to end, and Jesus promised him salvation. Who can argue against God's mercy.

However, how about those who do have the chance to be baptized, who CAN be baptized but don't -- are they taking advantage of God and treating baptism as just some nice thing to do? Were we not commanded to go and be baptized?
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I pointed that out. A good example of this is the thief on the Cross who repented before Jesus. He wasn't baptized. He was moments away from dying.

This was someone, despite everything, at the last minute submitted himself fully to God even though his life was right about to end, and Jesus promised him salvation. Who can argue against God's mercy.

However, how about those who do have the chance to be baptized, who CAN be baptized but don't -- are they taking advantage of God and treating baptism as just some nice thing to do? Were we not commanded to go and be baptized?
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I know a man of God who was saved but never submitted to baptism because he had a terrible fear of being in front of people. Fear stopped him. He missed out on the blessing of being obedient to God in that one thing. He didn't miss out on knowing the Saviour and living his life for Him. He died and he is with his Lord today. It is through his faith that he received salvation. ALL his sins have been covered in the blood---including his disobedience.
 
Euphemia said:
I know a man of God who was saved but never submitted to baptism because he had a terrible fear of being in front of people. Fear stopped him. He missed out on the blessing of being obedient to God in that one thing. He didn't miss out on knowing the Savior and living his life for Him. He died and he is with his Lord today. It is through his faith that he received salvation. ALL his sins have been covered in the blood---including his disobedience.
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I also believe God is merciful for those who have been mislead and never had to chance to see for themselves the truth. God knows where your friend is and what was in his heart -- I wouldn't argue that he isn't in hell. How can I when God only knows?

The point is when we learn the truth, when we see what the scriptures say about baptism, but then avoid responsibility, and this goes for our sins too, then who are we hurting but ourselves.

It reminds me of someone who told me about something he did and he wanted to get it off his chest. I suggested he make right of it. His response was "I don't have to. Jesus saved me from my sins through His death. Once saved always saved." I didn't quite argue with him, this was years ago and I didn't know any better, but he was wrong and decided he could exploit God's grace, as so many of us have attempted to do at some point. I can easily remember moments where I've done something wrong, knowing it was wrong, but then said "Oh, I'll just ask for forgiveness later." It's the classic case of wanting the title of Christian, KNOWING it's the truth, having sincere faith, but also wanting our cake and to eat it to. Not wanting to take Christian responsibility on His terms, only our own.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I also believe God is merciful for those who have been mislead and never had to chance to see for themselves the truth. God knows where your friend is and what was in his heart -- I wouldn't argue that he isn't in hell. How can I when God only knows?

The point is when we learn the truth, when we see what the scriptures say about baptism, but then avoid responsibility, and this goes for our sins too, then who are we hurting but ourselves.

It reminds me of someone who told me about something he did and he wanted to get it off his chest. I suggested he make right of it. His response was "I don't have to. Jesus saved me from my sins through His death. Once saved always saved." I didn't quite argue with him, this was years ago and I didn't know any better, but he was wrong and decided he could exploit God's grace, as so many of us have attempted to do at some point. I can easily remember moments where I've done something wrong, knowing it was wrong, but then said "Oh, I'll just ask for forgiveness later." It's the classic case of wanting the title of Christian, KNOWING it's the truth, having sincere faith, but also wanting our cake and to eat it to. Not wanting to take Christian responsibility on His terms, only our own.
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The man I knew was very aware of what he was doing. he was not misled, except by the enemy, pointing to his fear. He is with God today according to His word. I have no doubts, because I believe Him.

His sin has been dealt with once and for all on the cross, and will never be cast up to him by God, as He says He will remember it no more. Does that truth negate our responsibility to acknowledge our sins and bad attitudes and to confess them to God? No. But neglecting to confess and repent as a Christian doesn't negate our standing with God as His children, either.
 
Euphemia said:
The man I knew was very aware of what he was doing. he was not misled, except by the enemy, pointing to his fear. He is with God today according to His word. I have no doubts, because I believe Him.

His sin has been dealt with once and for all on the cross, and will never be cast up to him by God, as He says He will remember it no more. Does that truth negate our responsibility to acknowledge our sins and bad attitudes and to confess them to God? No. But neglecting to confess and repent as a Christian doesn't negate our standing with God as His children, either.
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One must be very careful.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I also believe God is merciful for those who have been mislead and never had to chance to see for themselves the truth. God knows where your friend is and what was in his heart -- I wouldn't argue that he isn't in hell. How can I when God only knows?

The point is when we learn the truth, when we see what the scriptures say about baptism, but then avoid responsibility, and this goes for our sins too, then who are we hurting but ourselves.

It reminds me of someone who told me about something he did and he wanted to get it off his chest. I suggested he make right of it. His response was "I don't have to. Jesus saved me from my sins through His death. Once saved always saved." I didn't quite argue with him, this was years ago and I didn't know any better, but he was wrong and decided he could exploit God's grace, as so many of us have attempted to do at some point. I can easily remember moments where I've done something wrong, knowing it was wrong, but then said "Oh, I'll just ask for forgiveness later." It's the classic case of wanting the title of Christian, KNOWING it's the truth, having sincere faith, but also wanting our cake and to eat it to. Not wanting to take Christian responsibility on His terms, only our own.
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I think that is the whole point that James is telling us in his epistle, that "faith without works is dead" It is to easy to say we have something but without the actions that goes along with it. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits" It is very interesting that the fruits he was talking about is not our own fruit, but the fruit that comes from the seed of the Word of God.
The Word in us always produces actions when it is residing in the person who has it. We are always trying to make our own actions to be the the fruit which we simply can not do. It is the Word in us that produces the fruit and the actions not us.
 
CCW95A said:
I think that is the whole point that James is telling us in his epistle, that "faith without works is dead" It is to easy to say we have something but without the actions that goes along with it. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits" It is very interesting that the fruits he was talking about is not our own fruit, but the fruit that comes from the seed of the Word of God.
The Word in us always produces actions when it is residing in the person who has it. We are always trying to make our own actions to be the the fruit which we simply can not do. It is the Word in us that produces the fruit and the actions not us.
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I agree. One cannot work his way into heaven of course, nor should anyone try. But works animated by our faith, that is our works lead by the Holy Spirit, is precisely what James is point out, and same as Paul in the letter to the Corinthians: "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

With all the scriptures that emphasize baptism's importance in our submission to Christ, I can't fuss against the Scriptures. With passage after passage, with the great theologians' writings on it, and the example of Christ himself, I have to agree with Martin Luther: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself."
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
I agree. One cannot work his way into heaven of course, nor should anyone try. But works animated by our faith, that is our works lead by the Holy Spirit, is precisely what James is point out, and same as Paul in the letter to the Corinthians: "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
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Exactly....There are a lot of people who claim to have all knowledge, and faith to move mountain, and even give their body to be burned, but all that is useless if God (love) is not doing it, not that person. Jesus said, "many will come unto me on that day and say "Lord did WE not do cast out Devils, and lay hands on the sick and do many wonderful things..." And Jesus will say to them "I never knew you..." Our only work is to believe the truth, and if we do that, God will work through us.
The Apostle Paul never claimed to do any thing on his own, because he knew he could not.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace (the unmerited favor and blessing) of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not [found to be] for nothing (fruitless and without effect). In fact, I worked harder than all of them [the apostles], though it was not really I, but the grace (the unmerited favor and blessing) of God which was with me. (AMP)
 
Since Jesus is our perfect example of faith, we should look to him in how he worked it. Jesus knew there was no way that he could do what his Father will was. Jesus had a will, but never did his own will, and he did not conform his will to do the will of His Father, he simply choose not to do his own will.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The works which Jesus performed was the results of His Father dwelling and living in him. His Father did the works. If this is how Jesus walked then we need to walk the same as him. The only difference with us is it is Christ that is our life now working his works through us, not us doing them. It is God that dwells in us both to will and do of his good pleasure.
 
Then Jesus went from Galilee to the Jordan River to be baptized by John. But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?” But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires. ” So John agreed to baptize him. (Matthew 3:13-15 NLT)

When Jesus said "we must carry out all that God requires" was this required for Jesus, or all of us?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. (Matthew 3:15 KJV)

Jesus answered him, “Allow it for now, because this is the way for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him to be baptized. (Matthew 3:15 HCSB)

But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires. ” So John agreed to baptize him. (Matthew 3:15 NLT)

I don't understand the differences here.
 
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We know it is not in the water baptism we are save, but in the being baptized by one Spirit into one body.
Yet we are told to be water baptized, which is another way of "saving" and clearing our conscience from doing what we know we should do. If a Christian is never baptised in water, their conscience will always have questions about if they should be water baptised or not. The only way to clear their conscience is to be water baptised and those thoughts will never come back.
 
CCW95A said:
I think that is the whole point that James is telling us in his epistle, that "faith without works is dead" It is to easy to say we have something but without the actions that goes along with it. Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits" It is very interesting that the fruits he was talking about is not our own fruit, but the fruit that comes from the seed of the Word of God.
The Word in us always produces actions when it is residing in the person who has it. We are always trying to make our own actions to be the the fruit which we simply can not do. It is the Word in us that produces the fruit and the actions not us.
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Folks should always remember the direct example that James gives to a "working" faith, is Rahab the harlot and her obedience...all this stuff about religious works and works of the law of Moses are heresy from the true gospel.
 
Mitspa said:
Folks should always remember the direct example that James gives to a "working" faith, is Rahab the harlot and her obedience...all this stuff about religious works and works of the law of Moses are heresy from the true gospel.
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And explicitly so. This is why James even referenced Rahab the harlot and her works justifying her. He wasn't suggesting these were her personal works as ways to count the cost into receiving salvation, but true Christian actions of Godly charity. Or even Abraham's work of trusting in God which birth James and Paul references. Faith must translate to trust. For instance, I can have faith in God, but if I don't trust in Him when put to the test, then what good is my faith?
 
LysanderShapiro said:
And explicitly so. This is why James even referenced Rahab the harlot and her works justifying her. He wasn't suggesting these were her personal works as ways to count the cost into receiving salvation, but true Christian actions of Godly charity. Or even Abraham's work of trusting in God which birth James and Paul references. Faith must translate to trust. For instance, I can have faith in God, but if I don't trust in Him when put to the test, then what good is my faith?
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Yea, but you know that many take this passage to promote all sorts of things contrary to the simplicity that is in Christ. So I always like to put it in its intended context for other believers, so that they are not drawn into dead works...:)
 
Mitspa said:
Yea, but you know that many take this passage to promote all sorts of things contrary to the simplicity that is in Christ. So I always like to put it in its intended context for other believers, so that they are not drawn into dead works...:)
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Oh, overwhelmingly in fact -- there is no doubt people have distorted the concept of works fueled by the Holy Spirit and works fueled by their own being.

On the other hand, people have gone to the other extreme and kicked works out entirely, which is also dangerous.
 
Mitspa said:
Real FAITH, has real obedience! Baptism is an act of obedience to faith. If someone tells me they have faith and refuses baptism, I would not have much confidence that they really understand faith. I suggest that it is NEEDED, but not according to the "law of works" but according to the "law of faith". Real faith NEEDS actions of faith....:D
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Yes totally. Of course, if you have faith but refuse, do you actually have faith? I guess what I'm saying is if the person died without knowing about baptism or without having the chance to be baptised.
 
ThomasA said:
I don't think you can go to heaven if you have faith, but make bad intention decisions such as sleeping with another man's wife.
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We cannot gain salvation by good behaviour, nor can we lose it by bad behaviour. Heaven is the home of those who have received the free gift of righteousness in Christ by God's great grace through faith.

The truly regenerated believer may still fall, but Holy Spirit brings them to repentance, and because he is a child of God, He will never let him go as His rightful child. Do you abandon your children when they disobey?
 
ThomasA said:
I don't think you can go to heaven if you have faith, but make bad intention decisions such as sleeping with another man's wife.
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Then David sent messengers to get her; and when she came to the palace, he slept with her. She had just completed the purification rites after having her menstrual period. Then she returned home. (2 Samuel 11:4 NLT)

Hmmm.....
 
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