Is It Ever Okay To Lie?

There have been a couple of posts that seem to have advocated (or at least recounted) that one may state something that is not technically a lie but is designed to deceive. In my opinion the lie is still in the deception.

A related case is in Gen 46:31 thru 47:3. Joseph was counseling his family to hide the fact that they were shepherds since the Egyptians would probably not like this. Most likely because sheep crop grasses very close, leaving little stubble and the field requiring a long time to recover. This would be particularly significant at a time of famine.

But, when it came time to tell Pharaoh their occupation, Joseph’s family answered with the truth, including the fact that they intended to stay for a period.

31 And Joseph said unto his brethren, and unto his father's house, I will go up, and shew Pharaoh, and say unto him, My brethren, and my father's house, which were in the land of Canaan, are come unto me; 32 And the men are shepherds, for their trade hath been to feed cattle; and they have brought their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have. 33 And it shall come to pass, when Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation? 34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Ch 47
1 Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen. 2 And he took some of his brethren, even five men, and presented them unto Pharaoh. 3 And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.
 
Kayte said:
I know lying is a sin. But are certain circumstances okay? Would it be okay to lie to someone so you can give them a surprise party? How about lying to protect someone, or lying so they don't get hurt? Are there any times when lying is okay, or should we never lie?
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Please cite the chapter and verse where you found that information. We have to assess the context to give an appropriate answer. Romans carefully explains that Christians don't sin, so one wonders why Christians keep obsessing obsessively about sins.

According to my studies, sin, singular, is the absence of spirit. Adam had a spirit but it died and so he was unable to bequeath a spirit to his offspring. That is why everybody is born in sin, not because Mommy and Daddy did the big nasty. That is why a savior had to die in our place and make it possible to create a new spirit for us.

Sins, plural, are mistakes, such as throwing a dart and missing the bullseye. Christians are baptised into Christ's death, and dead bodies don't commit sins, so sins are not an issue for Christians. There is no more forgiveness. Either you believe in Jesus and are saved or you don't believe and are lost.

I am not aware of any place in the bible that says "Thou shalt not lie." There is that verse in the O.T. that says "Thou shalt not bear false witness," but that does not apply to Christians. Besides, it's hard to imagine a Christian thinking that love for his neighbors might be manifested by bearing false witness. So the first thing we need to address is the verse that makes you think a Christian can commit a sin by lying. Then we can examine specific instances where loving one's neighbor can be served by lying.
 
Hello brothers and sisters;

I came across this old thread and I wonder how God, who never lies, would allow us to lie just a tiny bit. Many times we will lie so we don't hurt the other's feelings. We shouldn't lie to preserve the feelings of others.

If a man or woman asks me what I think of their completed art piece or a song they wrote, or someone at their worst health asks me if they are going to get through better, I don't have to lie.

Aside from God, I spend more time in conversation with my wife. We both have known each other since our mid 20s. My Dad was my hero as a boy, but as an adult I see his flaws. Or, a young praise musician who wants to incorporate Christian rap in the worship service just to mix it up.

Jesus teaches us in the Gospels, at that moment don't be anxious (tempted to lie) for God will give us the right words at the right time.

I'm still learning to be 100% honest and it's not always easy. But going back to verses about being truthful everytime I / we speak, God is still building us up.

Numbers 23:19, 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? - KJV

Titus 1:2, in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago - RSV

Hebrews 6:18, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. - ESV

What are your thoughts and experience regarding truthfulness?

God bless us all.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello brothers and sisters;

I came across this old thread and I wonder how God, who never lies, would allow us to lie just a tiny bit. Many times we will lie so we don't hurt the other's feelings. We shouldn't lie to preserve the feelings of others.

If a man or woman asks me what I think of their completed art piece or a song they wrote, or someone at their worst health asks me if they are going to get through better, I don't have to lie.

Aside from God, I spend more time in conversation with my wife. We both have known each other since our mid 20s. My Dad was my hero as a boy, but as an adult I see his flaws. Or, a young praise musician who wants to incorporate Christian rap in the worship service just to mix it up.

Jesus teaches us in the Gospels, at that moment don't be anxious (tempted to lie) for God will give us the right words at the right time.

I'm still learning to be 100% honest and it's not always easy. But going back to verses about being truthful everytime I / we speak, God is still building us up.

Numbers 23:19, 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? - KJV

Titus 1:2, in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago - RSV

Hebrews 6:18, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. - ESV

What are your thoughts and experience regarding truthfulness?

God bless us all.
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As I think back on my life, I can't help noticing that my father was truthful in every way I can remember. I also understand that this was the result of his manner of living. He certainly wasn't blameless, and he at times became angry beyond what may be seen as proper, but I can realize that his truthfulness came as a result of _not_ doing anything to be ashamed before man of. He also did as he promised, and that is because while he was quite willing to aid those around him, he seldom promised beyond his ability to fulfill.

Many lies come as a result of our attempting to justify or hide our behavior. As his son, I can't really say that I have reached his level of truthfulness and I strongly suspect that the reason for that is that I am more likely to behave in a manner that I do not wish to subject to the scrutiny of others.
 
Motivation.
It’s about why we lie really.

My dad used to tell us not to lie.

Well one day I went playing out with some kids down the street and they were going to steal ice creams from the vans that were parked overnight in a lock up and I went and stole some lollies and the police caught us and brought us home and my dad said “what have you been doing?”and the police had told him what we did.
I said “nothing dad”. He said well what’s all the red stuff round your mouth and the I had to tell the truth then lol
But I hate lying because he always found out.
I never did it again haha I was only 9.

So I think it’s about the motivation. If you know you could save someone you would lie in the process. But for selfish reasons it’s wrong.
 
Man lies.

He was (we were, and still are) taught to lie by the prince of lies. In the garden, The enemy had to embellish his lies with lies of his own and misdirection implying God Himself was deceitful.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Man is enticed to lie by holding something else before him. In the garden, it was by implying that we would be like The Most High - but we know that could never be possible. Many times, it is what one wants others to believe about them.

There are some that say it is now our fundamental nature. But that is not our natural state. I note that polygraph tests show the changes in our bodies that occur when we lie (at least if we are unaccustomed to lying).

I have had full polygraph taken to support my security clearance, as well as another occurrence where a lesser test that only measures a subset of standard polygraph traces. At one time I had the occasion to talk with test administrators afterwards and they say that for some habitual liars few changes appear on the tests, but those people rarely are considered for positions of trust.

So while most of us have to train ourselves to lie, over time truthfulness can become less ingrained in our self esteem so that habitual (or professional) liars may not show lies as deviations from base-line measurements.
 
Via dolarossa said:
Motivation. It’s about why we lie really. My dad used to tell us not to lie. Well one day I went playing out with some kids down the street and they were going to steal ice creams from the vans that were parked overnight in a lock up and I went and stole some lollies and the police caught us and brought us home and my dad said “what have you been doing?”and the police had told him what we did. I said “nothing dad”. He said well what’s all the red stuff round your mouth and the I had to tell the truth then lol But I hate lying because he always found out. I never did it again haha I was only 9. So I think it’s about the motivation. If you know you could save someone you would lie in the process. But for selfish reasons it’s wrong.
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Siloam said:
Man lies. He was (we were, and still are) taught to lie by the prince of lies. In the garden, The enemy had to embellish his lies with lies of his own and misdirection implying God Himself was deceitful. Genesis 3:4-5 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Man is enticed to lie by holding something else before him. In the garden, it was by implying that we would be like The Most High - but we know that could never be possible. Many times, it is what one wants others to believe about them. There are some that say it is now our fundamental nature. But that is not our natural state. I note that polygraph tests show the changes in our bodies that occur when we lie (at least if we are unaccustomed to lying). I have had full polygraph taken to support my security clearance, as well as another occurrence where a lesser test that only measures a subset of standard polygraph traces. At one time I had the occasion to talk with test administrators afterwards and they say that for some habitual liars few changes appear on the tests, but those people rarely are considered for positions of trust. So while most of us have to train ourselves to lie, over time truthfulness can become less ingrained in our self esteem so that habitual (or professional) liars may not show lies as deviations from base-line measurements.
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When I hear or speak about lying always brings to mind Adam and Eve. Are we too hard on them? After all, they were the very first man and woman that didn't have the Bible and study groups. God was their only teacher, yet, they committed the first original sin - lying.

What is everyone's thoughts?
 
When I hear or speak about lying always brings to mind Adam and Eve. Are we too hard on them? After all, they were the very first man and woman that didn't have the Bible and studies groups. God was their only teacher, yet, they committed the first original sin - lying.

What is everyone's thoughts
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Not sure what you mean Bob, by being too hard on Adam and Eve the first humans because of their disobedience.

Do you mean we should give our ansectors some slack because they sinned first, which led us to be born in sin?

Yes sometimes I wish I had never been born in this world as it’s full of suffering and they did originally cause it, but that’s genetic, even babies are sinners when they haven’t even grown yet but they don’t sin, they just inherited it right?

But it’s like I wouldn’t blame them for sinning thousands of years ago like I would forgave my parents when they grounded me or ignored my needs. There’s no point in carrying it on as there isn’t anything we can do except move on and be self aware of the ways we get caught up in our own sinful tendencies and temptations.


Does this help brother?
 
Via dolarossa said:
Not sure what you mean Bob, by being too hard on Adam and Eve the first humans because of their disobedience. Do you mean we should give our ancestors some slack because they sinned first, which led us to be born in sin? Yes sometimes I wish I had never been born in this world as it’s full of suffering and they did originally cause it, but that’s genetic, even babies are sinners when they haven’t even grown yet but they don’t sin, they just inherited it right? But it’s like I wouldn’t blame them for sinning thousands of years ago like I would forgave my parents when they grounded me or ignored my needs. There’s no point in carrying it on as there isn’t anything we can do except move on and be self aware of the ways we get caught up in our own sinful tendencies and temptations. Does this help brother?
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LearningToLetGo said:
Yes. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Are Adam and Eve not our neighbors? Honor your father and mother. Are not Adam and Eve father and mother to all? We are the same, past, present and future. Is it not arrogance to believe otherwise?
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Hello Via and LearningToLetDo;

Yes, that is my thought. Ponder on this. Adam and Eve didn't have the tools of a Bible book or study. They were the first humans so there was no father or mother to teach them and so on.

Of course, their best parent and teacher was God but we read how He responded to Adam and Eve's disobedience and made His decision, which was the best decision that would impact us.

God bless you both.
 
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