Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

[Phoneman777]

Wh

Jesus split a sentence, so a gap in the 70 weeks is acceptable...

Luke 4:21 (KJV)
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Here's Jesus' rendition:

Luke 4:18-19 (KJV)
The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Here's what He was reading from, the bold is the verse as read according to Luke's account.

Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV)
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

The Daniel prophecy spelled out:

Daniel 9:25-26 (KJV)
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The bold above equates to 69 weeks, THEN the prince is cut off after the 62 weeks when comes after the 7 weeks, meaning 69. It's like saying "in one year" is the same as saying "in 2 weeks and 50 weeks". If you studied Equal Letter Distance phenomenon of the scriptures you'd understand why sometime it goes about a odd way to say something

Sister, I believe you are well acquainted with "odd ways of saying something". The above passage is clearly saying that Jesus was crucified AFTER 69 weeks, meaning DURING the 70th week which firmly nails down that week in history, yet you seem to want to rip it up and send it down to the end of time and claim that week has not begun.

Is this the best explanation you have for denying Peter's plain words?

 

[Phoneman777]

As to the rapture and the return of Jesus, the logical order is:

• Rapture: Meet Jesus in the air
• Antichrist makes a seven-year covenant with the Jews
• Two Witnesses come down from heaven (they like John the baptist they are not part of the church), they preach for 1260 days
  • The Jew rebuild the temple
  • They execute two sacrifices per day for 1150 days (2300 evenings and mornings sacrifices)
• Tribulation begins with the arrival of the Two Witnesses
  • Judgement of the church in heaven, crowns received
  • Marriage supper of the Lamb
• The daily sacrifices are stopped (from this day 1290 days until Jesus returns, but blessed is he who make is to 1335 days)
• 30 Days later the Two Witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, probably on Passover, half way through the One Week covenant of 7 years
  • they lay dead for 3.5 days while the world rejoices
  • raised from the dead
  • raptured to heaven
• Israel to flee to the wilderness for 1260 days
• After the tribulation, Jesus returns, the whole world sees Him
• Jesus returns on the Feast of Trumpets
  • Angels sent to gather the elect from the four winds (Jesus specifically says "after the tribulation")
  • Angels sent to gather all that offend
  • Forty Days of judgment
  • Five days of Grace (lifting the curse, healing the nations with the leaves from the Tree of Life)
  • These 45 days are the 1335-1290 spoken of by Daniel, hence the reason for those who are blessed to make it this far (of those on the earth)
• Jesus sets up His 1000-year reign
  • Satan is bound
  • One who dies at 100 will be a child
• Satan is loosed to tempt the world (so there has to be some who were NOT "gathered" returns to have children)
• Rebels destroyed
• White Throne Judgement of all from all time
• Death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire
• New Heaven and New Earth
• New Jerusalem arrives

All these are scripture, the order is MINE as it seems logical so as NOT to eliminate a single verse!

Look, we are not interested in subjection, but an examination of the Scriptures. I'm well aware of what Futurism teaches. Peter is clear that "...IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass..." means "IN THE DAY OF THE COMING OF THE LORD AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT" not some future date. No matter how many other of Futurism's ideas you stack next to this will change it. The Rapture and destruction are simultaneous leaving no room for a "7 year tribulation".

 

[Abdicate]

I guess you don't care about the Scriptures either... do you even know what the "Day of the Lord" is? It's the tribulation, not the rapture or His return to rule the earth. The Day of the Lord begins with the attempt to split Jerusalem as I showed before and you ignored.

 

[Phoneman777]

The day of

I guess you don't care about the Scriptures either... do you even know what the "Day of the Lord" is? It's the tribulation, not the rapture or His return to rule the earth. The Day of the Lord begins with the attempt to split Jerusalem as I showed before and you ignored.

According to who? The "great and terrible day of the Lord" has never been associated with the "tribulation", that is "Jacob's time of trouble" of Jeremiah 30:7. The "day of the Lord" has always pertained to the simultaneous coming of Jesus and the destruction of the wicked - to the work of Jesus, not Antichrist.

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess you don't care about the Scriptures either... do you even know what the "Day of the Lord" is? It's the tribulation, not the rapture or His return to rule the earth. The Day of the Lord begins with the attempt to split Jerusalem as I showed before and you ignored.

Even if you were correct about the "day of the Lord" referring to the "tribulation", Peter still says that the heavens, earth, and elements are destroyed "in the which" or "in the day of the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night" which you somehow connect to a tribulation period. Like I said, no tribulation period after He comes "as a thief in the night". Everything's gone.

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess you cannot read... "I" didn't split the sentence, Jesus did! He separated the "end time" events, not me! Live with it.

I read your post. So, because Jesus didn't include every detail of prophetic events in their chronological order every time He taught on the subject, you assume this gives you, yourself, the right to use "creative insertion/extraction theology" to modify the parts of Scripture that don't agree with your Jesuit theology? Other versions are even clearer than the KJV in stating that the two events are simultaneous, like Holmon's which says "...ON THAT DAY the heavens will..." So, it seems that it is you that will have to live with it.

"For the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night IN THE WHICH* the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth and also the works therein shall be burned up."

* (see "day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night")

 

[Major]

Yes, as recent as the JFK presidential election, much contention still remained in the U. S. as to whether we should elect a Roman Catholic man to the office. I believe he was one of the best presidents we ever had.
I still can't see how Paul's word in 1 Corinthians 15 can mean anything but that the second coming and the rapture are two simultaneous events on the the same day: (...at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed) and 1 Thess 4 (Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we...shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord)

I'm not real sure that I would agree wit that. You do know that JFK was elected by Mayor Richard Daily of Chicago don't you??? It is now a well know fact that 172,000 dead people voted for JFK in Illinois. It was just enough for JFK to carry that state and win the election. Richard Daily ran one of the most powerful & influential Democratic machines in America for almost 50 years.

I do not argue with anyone over what they believe. All I can say is that I see TWO events separated by the 7 year Tribulation period.

 

[Major]

It's cool bro, we're here to share our views in the spirit of brotherly and sisterly love. I have to disagree with you, though, for the idea of the Restrainer being the Holy Spirit in our day that yet prevents the rise of Antichrist came from the Jesuits in response to the Protestants - that Paul told the ECF, by their own testimony, that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire that prevented the rise of it back then upon the fall of that empire.

Also, Daniel says that Messiah was cut off after the 62 weeks of vs. 26 and the 7 weeks of vs. 25, which can only mean during the 70th week. Jesuit Futurism's attempt to cut off the 70th week and send it down to the end of time is problematic for two other reasons as well: By inserting a 2,000 year gap, the prophecy is no longer a "70 weeks" block of time, but is "725,526 weeks and counting". If I told my boss that the reason why my 1 hour lunch break lasted from noon until 5:00 PM was because there was a four hour "gap" between 12:59 PM and 1:00 PM, I think we all know what would happen.

That "gap" you refer to is what is called the Church Age, or the Day of Grace as soon would say.

I encourage you to remember that Jesus has already told us that absolutely no one, including Him knows when He is to come again.

But think of this for a moment. If the Rapture is to occur prior to the Tribulation, then it could happen at any moment. Doesn't that add anticipation to the thought of being raptured into the heavens? BUT on the other hand, if the Rapture is not to occur until the end of Tribulation, after all the prophecy concerning the events of the Tribulation have taken place.......we certainly won't find ourselves living as if He could appear at any moment.

Then recall Rev. 3:10 promises to keep us from the hour of temptation which is the basis for my belief that the church will be Raptured before the Tribulation. "Because you have kept my command to preserve, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

It is very difficult to me to interpret Rev. 3:10 in any other way that a promise to not be here for the Tribulation.
If not.........then what in the world do you do with this said verse?????

It can not just be ignored or spiritualized away.

The ONLY way to keep believers away from the hour of the temptation is to eliminate our presence and the means of doing that is the Rapture.

 

[Abdicate]

I read your post. So, because Jesus didn't include every detail of prophetic events in their chronological order every time He taught on the subject, you assume this gives you, yourself, the right to use "creative insertion/extraction theology" to modify the parts of Scripture that don't agree with your Jesuit theology? Other versions are even clearer than the KJV in stating that the two events are simultaneous, like Holmon's which says "...ON THAT DAY the heavens will..." So, it seems that it is you that will have to live with it.

"For the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night IN THE WHICH* the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth and also the works therein shall be burned up."

* (see "day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night")

You can repeat yourself all you want, it doesn't change the facts. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm not real sure that I would agree wit that. You do know that JFK was elected by Mayor Richard Daily of Chicago don't you??? It is now a well know fact that 172,000 dead people voted for JFK in Illinois. It was just enough for JFK to carry that state and win the election. Richard Daily ran one of the most powerful & influential Democratic machines in America for almost 50 years.

I do not argue with anyone over what they believe. All I can say is that I see TWO events separated by the 7 year Tribulation period.

LOL, Ok, I'll make this one and only political statemen here: I like JFK b/c he opposed the NWO by moving for the withdrawal of our troops (NWO relies on globalized "controlled conflict" to advance their agenda), signing an executive order to abolish the Fed (they want a central banking system in every country too) and for publicly condemning and vowing to seek out and expose secret societies and their insidious efforts to bring about the NWO . It takes guts to stand up against these wicked, murderous agents of Satan and it's too bad that he didn't live to see his goals accomplished. As soon as he was gone, Johnson reversed all of that like a good puppet president. Anyway, one man's opinion.

I still can't see how we can rip up the 70th week and send it down to the end of time when the Bible says that Jesus died AFTER the 69th which means DURING the 70th, which in effect nailed that week down in history, however much we want to believe in Futurism.

 

[Phoneman777]

You can repeat yourself all you want, it doesn't change the facts. Let's agree to disagree.

Ok, I'm for that, but for the record, I'm just repeating Peter.

 

[Euphemia]

So, you are saying that the Lord comes as a thief in the night to whisk away the church in the rapture but then He comes again as a thief in the night on Judgment Day years later? You mean to say that the Lord comes as a thief in the night TWICE?

The bible says it is the DAY OF THE LORD that comes as a thief in the night---to those who are not waiting and watching.

 

[Euphemia]

No phoneman. Jesus comes 1 x as a thief in the night for the rapture before the tribulation. That's y we need to be looking out for HIM. It's the peeps that have not accepted Christ as Lord and savior that will be surprised........"Hey what the heck happened to all the peeps?" The 2nd coming of Jesus will be to reign with HIM for the 1000 yrs on earth, at that time Satan will be bound with chains. As I understand it after the 1000 yrs the New Heaven and Earth will be created. The old 1 will pass away. I am ready ready ready!

Exactly. Thanks!

 

[Euphemia]

I never brought up the New Jerusalem....please indicate the post #...

Here:

That speaks of the time when New Jerusalem comes down "as a bride adorned for her husband", AFTER we have been already caught up to Jesus in the first resurrection of His second coming and returned to heaven with him for the millennium to judge the wicked, AFTER Satan and his demons are confined to the Earth in "chains of circumstance" with no one to deceive b/c they all dropped dead as "dung on the ground" at Jesus' glorious second coming. When New Jerusalem will come down with all the redeemed inside the city, the wicked will be resurrected to stand in white throne judgment, destroyed, and then the New Heaven and New Earth are created.

 

[Phoneman777]

That "gap" you refer to is what is called the Church Age, or the Day of Grace as soon would say.

I encourage you to remember that Jesus has already told us that absolutely no one, including Him knows when He is to come again.

But think of this for a moment. If the Rapture is to occur prior to the Tribulation, then it could happen at any moment. Doesn't that add anticipation to the thought of being raptured into the heavens? BUT on the other hand, if the Rapture is not to occur until the end of Tribulation, after all the prophecy concerning the events of the Tribulation have taken place.......we certainly won't find ourselves living as if He could appear at any moment.

Then recall Rev. 3:10 promises to keep us from the hour of temptation which is the basis for my belief that the church will be Raptured before the Tribulation. "Because you have kept my command to preserve, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

It is very difficult to me to interpret Rev. 3:10 in any other way that a promise to not be here for the Tribulation.
If not.........then what in the world do you do with this said verse?????

It can not just be ignored or spiritualized away.

The ONLY way to keep believers away from the hour of the temptation is to eliminate our presence and the means of doing that is the Rapture.

Thoughtful points, bro. My response is that I don't think Dispensationalism is Biblical, for as you might know, it came about by a man named John Nelson Darby, an early 19th century "Plymouth Brethren" member known as the "Father of Modern Dispensationalism" who was all about Futurism. This was the time when Futurism was spreading among Protestants in Europe and it actually came to America by him. The Scofield Reference Bible, which became standard issue for American Seminaries and Bible schools in the early 20th century and is a major reason why so many of our Protestant preachers today are Futurists, contains numerous footnotes that reference Darby's teachings.

The Bible doesn't say that the rapture can take place "any moment", but it does say that we can know when Jesus coming is "near, even at the door", and that he is coming "soon". The final events of prophecy will be rapid ones. It will be as in the days of Noah and Sodom and Gommorah, where most people were completely oblivious until it came suddenly upon them. Remember how fast things changed after 911? Churches were packed the very next Sunday. It won't take much, a global economic collapse, some nuclear or environmental disaster and the world will change overnight as we know it.

It is not inconceivable to believe that Jesus can keep us from the tribulation while we are yet here. Jesus even prayed in John 17 "I pray that You do NOT take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest KEEP THEM from the evil." Remember how Israel was kept from the 7 last plagues? There are 7 last plagues that will fall on the earth in the last days but "a thousand shall fall at side, and ten thousand at thy RIGHT (that's us down here, not up there), but it shall not come nigh thee (just as they didn't come near Israel). Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked." Now that is a promise we can all cling to.

 

[Euphemia]

God is dispensational. A dispensation is an administration of God's will over period of time toward a certain people group. He has particular rules as well as particular consequences that come out of not keeping those certain rules during each separate administration. He varies in His interactions with man according to what period of history (or the future) they live. It is generally accepted that there are seven basic dispensations, but there can be more.

 

[Brother Paul]

Both Paul and Peter admonish the church to be prepared to meet Jesus when He comes as a "thief in the night" which we all agree is the rapture of the church. Goodness, I hope that we can all see this clearly.

Therefore, how can Futurism be right in teaching that life down here continues after Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" when Peter declares that "the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up"?

Peter continues: "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye (the church that is yet to be raptured) to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting (still not raptured) unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

From the Bible, it's crystal clear that there can't possibly be any "7 year tribulation" period afterward because according to Peter there will be nothing left here when Jesus raptures us home to glory, and if Jesuit Futurism is wrong about this, then how can Jesuit Futurism hope to get right the rest of the story which includes the Tribulation, Armageddon, the Second Coming, the White Throne Judgment, the Millennium, and everything else???

Unless it does not occur pre-trib....right?

 

[Phoneman777]

God is dispensational. A dispensation is an administration of God's will over period of time toward a certain people group. He has particular rules as well as particular consequences that come out of not keeping those certain rules during each separate administration. He varies in His interactions with man according to what period of history (or the future) they live. It is generally accepted that there are seven basic dispensations, but there can be more.

Earlier you said that Peter was referring to "Judgment Day" when he spoke of the day of the Lord that comes as a "thief in the night". Anyone reading the Bible with his eyes open can see that Peter is clearly admonishing the church to prepare to meet Jesus in the rapture as He comes as a thief on the day that the heavens "pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, etc. and mentions nothign about judgment day. Do you want to try another explanation as to how their can follow a 7 year tribulation when everything is burned up and destroyed when He comes as a thief in the night to rapture the church?

 

[Phoneman777]

Unless it does not occur pre-trib....right?

Xactly. The only explanation that can fit is that the rapture is post trib.

 

[Euphemia]

Earlier you said that Peter was referring to "Judgment Day" when he spoke of the day of the Lord that comes as a "thief in the night". Anyone reading the Bible with his eyes open can see that Peter is clearly admonishing the church to prepare to meet Jesus in the rapture as He comes as a thief on the day that the heavens "pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, etc. and mentions nothing about judgment day. Do you want to try another explanation as to how their can follow a 7 year tribulation when everything is burned up and destroyed when He comes as a thief in the night to rapture the church?

The Day of the Lord is a violent, dreadful day for the wicked, who will be on the earth watching Him (and the Bride) come and not able to do a thing about it. That is not the rapture, which is an instant event and the body of Christ suddenly rises to meet the Saviour and goes to heaven with Him to the Wedding. You err by thinking that the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ are the same event. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Please read my post (#74) that describes the differences between the two.