It’s not for you

[Skipper]

We all have preferences; likes and dislikes. I’m guessing I’m not alone in letting my likes and dislikes sometimes bleed into my opinion of a church service.

I don’t like this song. The music is too slow. The music is too fast. The music is too loud. I feel like I want to sit down. They’re singing ANOTHER song?!?

Why is the pastor talking about this? I wish the pastor would hurry up. I can’t relate to this message at all. Why doesn’t the pastor do a better job of ______?

If you ever find yourself thinking along these lines, try to remember four simple words - it’s not for you.

If you don’t like a particular song or message, consider the possibility that it wasn’t for you. It was for a brother or sister in Christ in the congregation. Just because you didn’t like it or couldn’t relate doesn’t mean it didn’t serve a purpose or have an impact on someone else in the room.

And for THAT, give joy! Even if you didn’t particularly care for it, give joy that it reached someone else who needed to hear it. We all have songs and sermons that may not be our cup of tea just as we have all had songs and sermons that feel like they’re being given specifically to us individually. Maybe today’s sermon wasn’t it for you but give praise to God that someone else heard what they needed to hear!

 

[Musicmaster]

Romans 15:2 Let each of us please [his] neighbor for [his] good, leading to edification.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

You bring up an excellent point, and I thank you for that.

What you've said in this OP above, and what's declared in the verses in this post, are the reason I do not attend the general assembly of any institutional model organization. The things Paul instructed do not happen in most of those "service" events. One man simply cannot offer what edifies all present all the time. Nobody is that good. Those who are not being edified must adopt what you called the "not for you" attitude as a salve upon their own needs, sort of a "If you don't like it, lump it," response from those who are aware of the ugly truths of our traditions, but not willing to stand up for change and conformance to scripture.

Now, that's not to say that all church organizations have the usual milk-toast-n-wet-noodle services, but that does tend to describe the majority, based on my current experiences with them; given that I routinely visit them, or look at their web pages that betray the usual fare of the typical service, etc.

So, it's a real blessing that we all have choices from which to choose in order to find what appeals to each individual. Many people like fading into the woodwork, not being accountable to anyone but themselves, which is easy to do in the typical "service" filled with faces for the person up front to see, and the backs of all the heads for all others.

Please don't see this as a jab at any one or any thing, any more than the OP. I'm simply observing out loud that this is a multi-faceted topic in relation to an historic tradition that predates all of us here. We're talking about a model of what most call "church."

It will be wonderful to stand before the Lord's Throne and offer up worship unto Him that is pleasing to the Father. We won't be walking in and flicking on the the switch of contrived, emotional worship, not like what happens on this earth. To what extent is that happening, I don't know the percentage. What I do know is that in Heaven, it's going to be real, and it will be glorious! I praise the Lord for that.

This is a great topic, Skipper. I look forward to more.

MM

 

[Skipper]

Romans 15:2 Let each of us please [his] neighbor for [his] good, leading to edification.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

You bring up an excellent point, and I thank you for that.

What you've said in this OP above, and what's declared in the verses in this post, are the reason I do not attend the general assembly of any institutional model organization. The things Paul instructed do not happen in most of those "service" events. One man simply cannot offer what edifies all present all the time. Nobody is that good. Those who are not being edified must adopt what you called the "not for you" attitude as a salve upon their own needs, sort of a "If you don't like it, lump it," response from those who are aware of the ugly truths of our traditions, but not willing to stand up for change and conformance to scripture.

Now, that's not to say that all church organizations have the usual milk-toast-n-wet-noodle services, but that does tend to describe the majority, based on my current experiences with them; given that I routinely visit them, or look at their web pages that betray the usual fare of the typical service, etc.

So, it's a real blessing that we all have choices from which to choose in order to find what appeals to each individual. Many people like fading into the woodwork, not being accountable to anyone but themselves, which is easy to do in the typical "service" filled with faces for the person up front to see, and the backs of all the heads for all others.

Please don't see this as a jab at any one or any thing, any more than the OP. I'm simply observing out loud that this is a multi-faceted topic in relation to an historic tradition that predates all of us here. We're talking about a model of what most call "church."

It will be wonderful to stand before the Lord's Throne and offer up worship unto Him that is pleasing to the Father. We won't be walking in and flicking on the the switch of contrived, emotional worship, not like what happens on this earth. To what extent is that happening, I don't know the percentage. What I do know is that in Heaven, it's going to be real, and it will be glorious! I praise the Lord for that.

This is a great topic, Skipper. I look forward to more.

MM

May I ask what you do for fellowship in place of a typical church service?

 

[Musicmaster]

May I ask what you do for fellowship in place of a typical church service?

We have a house church just outside of one city, and are about to start a second one in another city.

MM

 

[Skipper]

We have a house church just outside of one city, and are about to start a second one in another city.

MM

Can you walk me through a typical house church service? I’ve been having a desire to go back to early church roots of small group fellowship over a meal and reading the Word. Not sure if that’s similar to what you’re referring to.

 

[Musicmaster]

Can you walk me through a typical house church service? I’ve been having a desire to go back to early church roots of small group fellowship over a meal and reading the Word. Not sure if that’s similar to what you’re referring to.

In a manner of speaking, what you describe are some of the elements of what we have.

We start with a meal together, with open discussion ranging from music, world events, spiritual/doctrinal matters, et al.

Then we do some cleanup, and move to the living room. The host generally starts with a topic of his choosing for the week, and guides a short discussion...emphasis on discussion, not Aristotelian Rhetoric most have called a "sermon" for centuries.

Then the floor is open for any and all other to share what the Spirit has brought to them through the week, what they learned from their devotions, what life presented to them that week as it relates to the word of God, a song, a psalm, a praise, a need, the possibilities are almost limitless, and we have the expectation toward each other to spend priority time in the word of God, and in prayer, and especially worshipping EVERY DAY in spirit and in truth.

That's the one item that seems the hardest for most to grasp since most associate "praise" with worship, as if they are synonymous, and therefore interchangeable, when they are not. Spirit and truth describe a way of life, which should be lived every moment of every day.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Living this each day, even when engaged in work, it's an ongoing practice each day that brings a force of worship that you can feel deep down, like filling up a huge vat that a part of your innards, that way when we enter into the corporate worship time in our fellowships, we have built up during the week a substance of worship that we can then pour out in the corporate meeting AND throughout the week. When we don't live worship during the week, how can we think that there will be anything of substance that is pleasing unto the Father from just the magical flip of the "worship" switch in a "sanctuary" to start the mood music and moving words of doxologies?

Now, not everyone will have substance to pour out in every meeting. There are times when hardships strike, and we may come to the meeting feeling like an empty shell. That's when the numerous hands in the fellowship can lift us up in our hour of need. When my former wife passed from this earth into eternity, they surrounded me in my hour of need, and it was/is genuine.

Many an institution I have tested by asking a random person about, for example, and older sister or brother so-and-so over there, and the isolation through ignorance was staggering. They don't know one another, especially in the larger groupings. Those who think that numbers make it all better, they're dead wrong. Anything over about 12 in a group, and true fellowship begins to suffer.

Does that give you a better glimpse?

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

To go one step further, we've had two main complaints from people who came and went:

1) It's not structured like a "real church"...and
2) It's not a Bible study!

If they wanted something akin to the usual fare of religion and ecclesiology, monastic trappings, mere audience style meetings, then they could go to any one of those offerings all over town, in almost every flavor they could ever want, and get their religious fix, even several times a week. I don't know if Baskin Robins is still in business, but some people like smorgasbords to choose from so that they can satisfy their palette for delectable variety.

You see, when people come to our fellowships, we expect it to be a fellowship, not a performance, and not an audienced silence of mere observers. We foster an atmosphere of openness and involvement. I could walk up to most professing christians today and ask them what TRUE fellowship is, and they will almost always point at some structure with a steeple, or a "church" with its fraternal name on the placard out front with flashing LED signage like business advertising, or they will launch into a description of their "church service", claiming they have wonderful fellowship there, and some will even point to their "cell group" meetings in homes.

That always shows to me that they don't know what TRUE fellowship really is in this plastic world filled with plastic relationships. We've even had people leave because our push for REAL, and genuine fellowship scared the daylights out of them. I have to admit that fellowship of biblical caliber is dangerous. It has a tendency to expose secret sins. I have yet to encounter anyone who was so good at concealing their secret sins that they never betrayed to all the others that there was something hidden in the context of true fellowship.

In the cradle of churchianity, all manner of sins can be concealed and nobody around the livid sinner would be any the wiser. All the cell groups I have ever been a part of were equally distanced when it came to relationships. They remained surface, as is the case with any social gathering where people's guards are up out of fear for being hurt, or their secret sins becoming apparent. Bible studies, cell groups and "church services" are so much safer. The people don't have to worry about their deeper, personal selves being ripped apart through gossip networks in churches and cell groups.

I realize you didn't ask for this much depth, but I thought it important that you understand that I'm not a part of something so shallow and depthless in scope when it comes to the inner man. No. There's more than enough of the safe and shallow depths of relationship out there. Coffee and donuts before the "service" is equally safe for all those who have things to keep secret from all others.

I'm constantly amazed at how many people simply don't want depth in their relationships with fellow believers. The programming of mere religion has become so deeply ingrained into the fiber of their beings that, dare they experience the push for deeper relationships, they run like animals from a forest fire. When new people come, we invite them to leave their religiosity outside on the doorstep, and pick it back up on their way out if they so desire.

MM

 

[Skipper]

To go one step further, we've had two main complaints from people who came and went:

1) It's not structured like a "real church"...and
2) It's not a Bible study!

If they wanted something akin to the usual fare of religion and ecclesiology, monastic trappings, mere audience style meetings, then they could go to any one of those offerings all over town, in almost every flavor they could ever want, and get their religious fix, even several times a week. I don't know if Baskin Robins is still in business, but some people like smorgasbords to choose from so that they can satisfy their palette for delectable variety.

You see, when people come to our fellowships, we expect it to be a fellowship, not a performance, and not an audienced silence of mere observers. We foster an atmosphere of openness and involvement. I could walk up to most professing christians today and ask them what TRUE fellowship is, and they will almost always point at some structure with a steeple, or a "church" with its fraternal name on the placard out front with flashing LED signage like business advertising, or they will launch into a description of their "church service", claiming they have wonderful fellowship there, and some will even point to their "cell group" meetings in homes.

That always shows to me that they don't know what TRUE fellowship really is in this plastic world filled with plastic relationships. We've even had people leave because our push for REAL, and genuine fellowship scared the daylights out of them. I have to admit that fellowship of biblical caliber is dangerous. It has a tendency to expose secret sins. I have yet to encounter anyone who was so good at concealing their secret sins that they never betrayed to all the others that there was something hidden in the context of true fellowship.

In the cradle of churchianity, all manner of sins can be concealed and nobody around the livid sinner would be any the wiser. All the cell groups I have ever been a part of were equally distanced when it came to relationships. They remained surface, as is the case with any social gathering where people's guards are up out of fear for being hurt, or their secret sins becoming apparent. Bible studies, cell groups and "church services" are so much safer. The people don't have to worry about their deeper, personal selves being ripped apart through gossip networks in churches and cell groups.

I realize you didn't ask for this much depth, but I thought it important that you understand that I'm not a part of something so shallow and depthless in scope when it comes to the inner man. No. There's more than enough of the safe and shallow depths of relationship out there. Coffee and donuts before the "service" is equally safe for all those who have things to keep secret from all others.

I'm constantly amazed at how many people simply don't want depth in their relationships with fellow believers. The programming of mere religion has become so deeply ingrained into the fiber of their beings that, dare they experience the push for deeper relationships, they run like animals from a forest fire. When new people come, we invite them to leave their religiosity outside on the doorstep, and pick it back up on their way out if they so desire.

MM

A few things in response to this:

Early in the post, you mentioned how people have a “smorgasbord” of options to choose from for a typical church service yet throughout the rest of the post, you generalize every church and every church service as being the same. Those two concepts contradict one another.

I agree that a lot of churches nowadays offer superficial messages and people generally don’t form meaningful relationships as they just sort of show up and leave. But maybe that’s what some people need right now in their walk. Maybe these larger churches serve a purpose of introducing people to the faith as a baby step. I would say most people who are just dabbling with Christianity to see what it’s all about would feel more comfortable in that type of setting rather than a home setting with a small group of people further along in their journey who have trust and rapport with each other while forcing newcomers to reveal their deepest darkest secrets in the name of “true” fellowship. Remember, sometimes it’s not for you.

I attend a church similar to the ones you seem to disdain. In my walk, I began thirsting for more so I started a men’s Bible study a few months ago. We have a core group of guys who show up and we go verse by verse and study the Word. We also discuss areas we are struggling in and seek prayer and consultation from one another. You seem to have an issue with this as well, though I’m not sure why. Why do you consider this not to be fellowship? What exactly are you doing in your home church that you seem to think is far superior to this and constitutes fellowship whereas what we’re doing does not?

Your post comes across as prideful and condescending to other believers. Saying YOU understand TRUE fellowship whereas others do not. Or if new people to your small group don’t like what you’re doing at your home church, they just don’t want REAL fellowship. The tone smacks of an air of superiority rather than one of love and accepting that some people have preferences for things that are different from yours.

Lastly, you seem to be a bit defensive about the home service you attend. You are tearing down other churches and services in an attempt to bolster your group. Could it be you have underlying feelings of inadequacy in what you’re doing? Why else would you feel the need to generalize every other church service as being inadequate and every other believer as not wanting “true fellowship” if they don’t like the way you guys do things? Perhaps if new people are fleeing, it’s the home church itself that’s the issue rather than everyone else involved. A little self-examination of your group may be warranted.

There’s no need to use such a broad brush to paint every other church and every other churchgoer. There’s no need to be so condescending to others who may not feel comfortable showing up to your small clique and suddenly being expected to share their every sin and dark secret.

It seems you have a unique perspective of what “true” fellowship is and what is expected/necessary for “true” fellowship. You talk about pushing people for deeper relationships but what exactly does that look like for you? It seems apparent to me you’re pushing too hard too fast.

While it’s important for people to have close relationships with fellow believers, confessing their sins is between them and the Lord. Not them and you. As you form new relationships with others, you will gradually notice their areas of struggles and they will gradually reveal more about where they are grappling with sin. Again, I’m not sure what you’re doing in your home church to cause new attendees to flee, but it seems to me the issue is your group rather than everyone else simply lacking the desire for deep fellowship.

 

[BibleLover]

To go one step further, we've had two main complaints from people who came and went:

1) It's not structured like a "real church"...and
2) It's not a Bible study!

If they wanted something akin to the usual fare of religion and ecclesiology, monastic trappings, mere audience style meetings, then they could go to any one of those offerings all over town, in almost every flavor they could ever want, and get their religious fix, even several times a week. I don't know if Baskin Robins is still in business, but some people like smorgasbords to choose from so that they can satisfy their palette for delectable variety.

You see, when people come to our fellowships, we expect it to be a fellowship, not a performance, and not an audienced silence of mere observers. We foster an atmosphere of openness and involvement. I could walk up to most professing christians today and ask them what TRUE fellowship is, and they will almost always point at some structure with a steeple, or a "church" with its fraternal name on the placard out front with flashing LED signage like business advertising, or they will launch into a description of their "church service", claiming they have wonderful fellowship there, and some will even point to their "cell group" meetings in homes.

That always shows to me that they don't know what TRUE fellowship really is in this plastic world filled with plastic relationships. We've even had people leave because our push for REAL, and genuine fellowship scared the daylights out of them. I have to admit that fellowship of biblical caliber is dangerous. It has a tendency to expose secret sins. I have yet to encounter anyone who was so good at concealing their secret sins that they never betrayed to all the others that there was something hidden in the context of true fellowship.

In the cradle of churchianity, all manner of sins can be concealed and nobody around the livid sinner would be any the wiser. All the cell groups I have ever been a part of were equally distanced when it came to relationships. They remained surface, as is the case with any social gathering where people's guards are up out of fear for being hurt, or their secret sins becoming apparent. Bible studies, cell groups and "church services" are so much safer. The people don't have to worry about their deeper, personal selves being ripped apart through gossip networks in churches and cell groups.

I realize you didn't ask for this much depth, but I thought it important that you understand that I'm not a part of something so shallow and depthless in scope when it comes to the inner man. No. There's more than enough of the safe and shallow depths of relationship out there. Coffee and donuts before the "service" is equally safe for all those who have things to keep secret from all others.

I'm constantly amazed at how many people simply don't want depth in their relationships with fellow believers. The programming of mere religion has become so deeply ingrained into the fiber of their beings that, dare they experience the push for deeper relationships, they run like animals from a forest fire. When new people come, we invite them to leave their religiosity outside on the doorstep, and pick it back up on their way out if they so desire.

MM

I can see how this arrangement is going to be helpful as more and more of our regular churches start kow-towing to the power of judicially enforced satanic, ungodly cultural norms. It's already getting a little more difficult to churches that don't have some kind of compromise with ungodliness whether it's adopting the gay agenda to putting their stamp of approval to political parties who sponsor abortion and the gay agenda. Your type of fellowships are already in use in Communist China by true believers. The advantages of your fellowships are the relational intimacy among members plus they can occupy the entire day and keep members' focus on God all day. God bless ya bro.

 

[Musicmaster]

A few things in response to this:

Early in the post, you mentioned how people have a “smorgasbord” of options to choose from for a typical church service yet throughout the rest of the post, you generalize every church and every church service as being the same. Those two concepts contradict one another.

I see the seeming dilemma. No, each institution has variances that give it that smorgasbord flavoring, but the constructs of the programmatic approach are generally all the same.

1) Intros and announcments
2) Music, responsive readings, maybe some dances, etc.
3) Main attraction - the sermon.
4) More music and announcements.
5) Dismissal - invitations to other following events, etc.

So, the flow is generally the same from one to the other of institutions, with variations within that flow having differing elements.

Sorry I didn't expound upon that. I took it as a given where understanding is concerned.

I agree that a lot of churches nowadays offer superficial messages and people generally don’t form meaningful relationships as they just sort of show up and leave. But maybe that’s what some people need right now in their walk. Maybe these larger churches serve a purpose of introducing people to the faith as a baby step.

If we look at the early Church, what do we see? Were their gatherings for the purpose of evangelizing, or were they there to live out mutual edification?

I dare say one will observe the latter, not the former.

Today, however, the "service" is an attempt at edification, AND a vicarious evangelism tool in the place of each believer evangelizing AND discipling new converts, fate to face. It's all been handed over to the institution and its professional staffing. Jesus never set us out to do evangelism and discipling through vicarious means. Paul stated quite emphatically the purpose for the gathering of believers, and that description did not include evangelising.

Now, please don't take me wrong. I'm not here to take away anyone's freedom to build and/or support such a superstructure institution. We all have that freedom. The problem is when people mistakenly claim that the institutional model is biblically based, when in fact it is not. It has good elements within its modeling, but it also is missing critical elements that cannot exist within the large numbers that generally characterize most institutions.

I would say most people who are just dabbling with Christianity to see what it’s all about would feel more comfortable in that type of setting rather than a home setting with a small group of people further along in their journey who have trust and rapport with each other while forcing newcomers to reveal their deepest darkest secrets in the name of “true” fellowship. Remember, sometimes it’s not for you.

Yes, but what better way for the dabbler to find out what it's really all about. The institutional model cannot give that to them. That model is a luxury. It is not a representation of where the rubber meets the road. It does indeed provide the warm fuzzy toward the weekly fulfillment of a perceived requirement, but it doesn't strike deeply into depths of the individual in a close, intimate, familial relationship with other believers. That interconnectedness is precisely the sinews of vitality the Lord intended to exist within His functioning body.

Does the institutional model have some value? Of course it does, which can be said of any-thing and any-body. Even the pharaoh had inherent value to the Lord, for the Lord used him for the Lord's own purposes. The Lord has used the institutional model mightily, but it was never His intent that the institutional model replace the intimacy He so desired to exist within His body.

I attend a church similar to the ones you seem to disdain. In my walk, I began thirsting for more so I started a men’s Bible study a few months ago. We have a core group of guys who show up and we go verse by verse and study the Word. We also discuss areas we are struggling in and seek prayer and consultation from one another. You seem to have an issue with this as well, though I’m not sure why. Why do you consider this not to be fellowship? What exactly are you doing in your home church that you seem to think is far superior to this and constitutes fellowship whereas what we’re doing does not?

I wish others would abstain from assuming that I have nothing but disdain for the institutional model. I at no time ever said that it has no value, nor that the Lord has not, nor could not, use it to His glory. It exists, He can and does use it, and it therefore serves some purposes in His Hands. The only thing that I despise is the attitude that many harbor in their mean little hearts that the institutional model is the one and only valid and viable model for the gathering of believers. That's just plain false, and a gross demonstration of utter ignorance. There are some out there who believe that nonsense, and have verbalized such to me in discussions.

Your post comes across as prideful and condescending to other believers. Saying YOU understand TRUE fellowship whereas others do not. Or if new people to your small group don’t like what you’re doing at your home church, they just don’t want REAL fellowship. The tone smacks of an air of superiority rather than one of love and accepting that some people have preferences for things that are different from yours.

Well, perhaps it's best that we drop this off now, because you appear to have injected meaning and attitudes into my statements things that simply are not there. It's great to ask for clarification, but when it becomes accusatory, that's when I bow out in order to retain the peace.

Shalome

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I can see how this arrangement is going to be helpful as more and more of our regular churches start kow-towing to the power of judicially enforced satanic, ungodly cultural norms. It's already getting a little more difficult to churches that don't have some kind of compromise with ungodliness whether it's adopting the gay agenda to putting their stamp of approval to political parties who sponsor abortion and the gay agenda. Your type of fellowships are already in use in Communist China by true believers. The advantages of your fellowships are the relational intimacy among members plus they can occupy the entire day and keep members' focus on God all day. God bless ya bro.

Thank you, brother. You've always been a voice of reason and balance.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Skipper]

I see the seeming dilemma. No, each institution has variances that give it that smorgasbord flavoring, but the constructs of the programmatic approach are generally all the same.

1) Intros and announcments
2) Music, responsive readings, maybe some dances, etc.
3) Main attraction - the sermon.
4) More music and announcements.
5) Dismissal - invitations to other following events, etc.

So, the flow is generally the same from one to the other of institutions, with variations within that flow having differing elements.

Sorry I didn't expound upon that. I took it as a given where understanding is concerned.



If we look at the early Church, what do we see? Were their gatherings for the purpose of evangelizing, or were they there to live out mutual edification?

I dare say one will observe the latter, not the former.

Today, however, the "service" is an attempt at edification, AND a vicarious evangelism tool in the place of each believer evangelizing AND discipling new converts, fate to face. It's all been handed over to the institution and its professional staffing. Jesus never set us out to do evangelism and discipling through vicarious means. Paul stated quite emphatically the purpose for the gathering of believers, and that description did not include evangelising.

Now, please don't take me wrong. I'm not here to take away anyone's freedom to build and/or support such a superstructure institution. We all have that freedom. The problem is when people mistakenly claim that the institutional model is biblically based, when in fact it is not. It has good elements within its modeling, but it also is missing critical elements that cannot exist within the large numbers that generally characterize most institutions.



Yes, but what better way for the dabbler to find out what it's really all about. The institutional model cannot give that to them. That model is a luxury. It is not a representation of where the rubber meets the road. It does indeed provide the warm fuzzy toward the weekly fulfillment of a perceived requirement, but it doesn't strike deeply into depths of the individual in a close, intimate, familial relationship with other believers. That interconnectedness is precisely the sinews of vitality the Lord intended to exist within His functioning body.

Does the institutional model have some value? Of course it does, which can be said of any-thing and any-body. Even the pharaoh had inherent value to the Lord, for the Lord used him for the Lord's own purposes. The Lord has used the institutional model mightily, but it was never His intent that the institutional model replace the intimacy He so desired to exist within His body.



I wish others would abstain from assuming that I have nothing but disdain for the institutional model. I at no time ever said that it has no value, nor that the Lord has not, nor could not, use it to His glory. It exists, He can and does use it, and it therefore serves some purposes in His Hands. The only thing that I despise is the attitude that many harbor in their mean little hearts that the institutional model is the one and only valid and viable model for the gathering of believers. That's just plain false, and a gross demonstration of utter ignorance. There are some out there who believe that nonsense, and have verbalized such to me in discussions.



Well, perhaps it's best that we drop this off now, because you appear to have injected meaning and attitudes into my statements things that simply are not there. It's great to ask for clarification, but when it becomes accusatory, that's when I bow out in order to retain the peace.

Shalome

MM

You’re trying to argue with me when, as I previously indicated, I agree with the idea of the early church roots and having smaller groups to live and grow. Again, it’s a defensive posture you’re taking though I’m not sure why.

If it bothers you that people continually interpret you as having disdain for the typical church service, maybe the issue is your way of communicating your thoughts on the matter. If you’re not trying to relay disdain for it yet people continually interpret it as such, I think it’s time to change how you communicate whatever point it is you’re trying to make.

Again, I agree with the deeper relationship concept and holding each other accountable. I disagree with your position that if someone flees from your home church, they don’t know what TRUE fellowship is.

Incidentally, I’m still waiting for you to expand on what it is you guys do that constitutes “true” fellowship versus what people do in Bible studies or small groups that isn’t “true” fellowship. These were your words, not mine.

I’m not sure what accusatory statements you’re referring to when your post was clearly condescending to other forms of church service other than the one you prefer. Again, I agree with the concepts you’re espousing but you came across as boastful in your post.

 

[bobinfaith]

We all have preferences; likes and dislikes. I’m guessing I’m not alone in letting my likes and dislikes sometimes bleed into my opinion of a church service. I don’t like this song. The music is too slow. The music is too fast. The music is too loud. I feel like I want to sit down. They’re singing ANOTHER song?!? Why is the pastor talking about this? I wish the pastor would hurry up. I can’t relate to this message at all. Why doesn’t the pastor do a better job of ______? If you ever find yourself thinking along these lines, try to remember four simple words - it’s not for you. If you don’t like a particular song or message, consider the possibility that it wasn’t for you. It was for a brother or sister in Christ in the congregation. Just because you didn’t like it or couldn’t relate doesn’t mean it didn’t serve a purpose or have an impact on someone else in the room. And for THAT, give joy! Even if you didn’t particularly care for it, give joy that it reached someone else who needed to hear it. We all have songs and sermons that may not be our cup of tea just as we have all had songs and sermons that feel like they’re being given specifically to us individually. Maybe today’s sermon wasn’t it for you but give praise to God that someone else heard what they needed to hear!

Hello Skipper;

It's Not For You can sound fundamental but it can raise serious concerns.

Many Church or House Worship attending men and women are called where they will serve God. A discipled, seasoned Christian is not to judge the Church they attend because the Pastor's sermon, Bible study, ministries and evangelism, etc...falls short. It's not for me or about me.

The best remedy is to sit down with the spiritual leader and discuss it by expressing how you feel and allow the leader to share what the appointment is for the Church. I'm surprised this doesn't happen as it should.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. Many worshipers prefer to choose where they will worship for their reasons.

Your thread makes a good point to think about and discuss further because it is serious.

I have a personal friend that pastored a Church in an open park. I don't know if the Church was registered as a 501c3 but in the eyes of God the Pastor felt called to oversee this Church daily and especially on Sundays. People from all walks attended this Church in the park, many got saved and baptized and from the testimony of Acts 1:12-14 there were human imperfections but that didn't stop the bond of One Body.

If someone attends a worship that may be a different setting and they are bonding in the fellowship and maturing in their discipleship, let's praise God!

Those who have hard knock experience in the Church should also remember that if a growing Christian walks into a new Church and faces the challenges, likes and dislikes of why they attend worship, then we must let them work it out as we have. To me it's best to get out of God's way and pray He will be their guide.

God bless you, Skipper, and your family.

 

[Major]

Romans 15:2 Let each of us please [his] neighbor for [his] good, leading to edification.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

You bring up an excellent point, and I thank you for that.

What you've said in this OP above, and what's declared in the verses in this post, are the reason I do not attend the general assembly of any institutional model organization. The things Paul instructed do not happen in most of those "service" events. One man simply cannot offer what edifies all present all the time. Nobody is that good. Those who are not being edified must adopt what you called the "not for you" attitude as a salve upon their own needs, sort of a "If you don't like it, lump it," response from those who are aware of the ugly truths of our traditions, but not willing to stand up for change and conformance to scripture.

Now, that's not to say that all church organizations have the usual milk-toast-n-wet-noodle services, but that does tend to describe the majority, based on my current experiences with them; given that I routinely visit them, or look at their web pages that betray the usual fare of the typical service, etc.

So, it's a real blessing that we all have choices from which to choose in order to find what appeals to each individual. Many people like fading into the woodwork, not being accountable to anyone but themselves, which is easy to do in the typical "service" filled with faces for the person up front to see, and the backs of all the heads for all others.

Please don't see this as a jab at any one or any thing, any more than the OP. I'm simply observing out loud that this is a multi-faceted topic in relation to an historic tradition that predates all of us here. We're talking about a model of what most call "church."

It will be wonderful to stand before the Lord's Throne and offer up worship unto Him that is pleasing to the Father. We won't be walking in and flicking on the the switch of contrived, emotional worship, not like what happens on this earth. To what extent is that happening, I don't know the percentage. What I do know is that in Heaven, it's going to be real, and it will be glorious! I praise the Lord for that.

This is a great topic, Skipper. I look forward to more.

MM

It should also be noted I think that the 1 Corth. letter was one of "Correction".

From the context, it seems the Corinthians may have been practicing something similar but far less orderly. It seems that many people were speaking in tongues or exercising other spiritual gifts at the same time. Paul will insist on two things in every service:
1. orderliness—specifically in the form of taking defined turns—and
2. everything be done for the purpose of building up the others present.

He lists things that each person may contribute, but he does not insist every person must contribute. These include a hymn, perhaps from the Psalms, a lesson, most likely from one with the gift of teaching, a revelation, perhaps by someone with the gift of prophecy.

 

[Major]

In a manner of speaking, what you describe are some of the elements of what we have.

We start with a meal together, with open discussion ranging from music, world events, spiritual/doctrinal matters, et al.

Then we do some cleanup, and move to the living room. The host generally starts with a topic of his choosing for the week, and guides a short discussion...emphasis on discussion, not Aristotelian Rhetoric most have called a "sermon" for centuries.

Then the floor is open for any and all other to share what the Spirit has brought to them through the week, what they learned from their devotions, what life presented to them that week as it relates to the word of God, a song, a psalm, a praise, a need, the possibilities are almost limitless, and we have the expectation toward each other to spend priority time in the word of God, and in prayer, and especially worshipping EVERY DAY in spirit and in truth.

That's the one item that seems the hardest for most to grasp since most associate "praise" with worship, as if they are synonymous, and therefore interchangeable, when they are not. Spirit and truth describe a way of life, which should be lived every moment of every day.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Living this each day, even when engaged in work, it's an ongoing practice each day that brings a force of worship that you can feel deep down, like filling up a huge vat that a part of your innards, that way when we enter into the corporate worship time in our fellowships, we have built up during the week a substance of worship that we can then pour out in the corporate meeting AND throughout the week. When we don't live worship during the week, how can we think that there will be anything of substance that is pleasing unto the Father from just the magical flip of the "worship" switch in a "sanctuary" to start the mood music and moving words of doxologies?

Now, not everyone will have substance to pour out in every meeting. There are times when hardships strike, and we may come to the meeting feeling like an empty shell. That's when the numerous hands in the fellowship can lift us up in our hour of need. When my former wife passed from this earth into eternity, they surrounded me in my hour of need, and it was/is genuine.

Many an institution I have tested by asking a random person about, for example, and older sister or brother so-and-so over there, and the isolation through ignorance was staggering. They don't know one another, especially in the larger groupings. Those who think that numbers make it all better, they're dead wrong. Anything over about 12 in a group, and true fellowship begins to suffer.

Does that give you a better glimpse?

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

So you are having a home Bible study program with benefits!!!!

Now what you described is exactly what Sunday morning Sunday School is at all the Baptist churches I know of.

Coffee, fellowship, prayer a song and then open Bible study.

 

[Via dolarossa]

Yeh I watched a sermon once online and was impressed with what the pastor was preaching then he started speaking in tongues at the end and I started to feel unsure because I don’t speak in tongues. Nor do I want to.

So Basically, I didn’t dump him just because I don’t like tongue talking. I still like to watch his sermons now and then. I take what I am impressed by that speaks to me sincerely and forget the rest. It works quite well actually.

 

[Musicmaster]

You’re trying to argue with me when, as I previously indicated, I agree with the idea of the early church roots and having smaller groups to live and grow. Again, it’s a defensive posture you’re taking though I’m not sure why.

If it bothers you that people continually interpret you as having disdain for the typical church service, maybe the issue is your way of communicating your thoughts on the matter. If you’re not trying to relay disdain for it yet people continually interpret it as such, I think it’s time to change how you communicate whatever point it is you’re trying to make.

Again, I agree with the deeper relationship concept and holding each other accountable. I disagree with your position that if someone flees from your home church, they don’t know what TRUE fellowship is.

Incidentally, I’m still waiting for you to expand on what it is you guys do that constitutes “true” fellowship versus what people do in Bible studies or small groups that isn’t “true” fellowship. These were your words, not mine.

I’m not sure what accusatory statements you’re referring to when your post was clearly condescending to other forms of church service other than the one you prefer. Again, I agree with the concepts you’re espousing but you came across as boastful in your post.

Skipper, you're the only one thus far who as assumed disdain in my words. Who are these "people" may I ask? Nobody else accused me of disdain, pride or condescension in this thread or any other when this topic came up.

I can see there's no resolution to this, so I will, as I had indicated, bow out from conversation in this thread with you since it seems to be a sore spot.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It should also be noted I think that the 1 Corth. letter was one of "Correction".

From the context, it seems the Corinthians may have been practicing something similar but far less orderly. It seems that many people were speaking in tongues or exercising other spiritual gifts at the same time. Paul will insist on two things in every service:
1. orderliness—specifically in the form of taking defined turns—and
2. everything be done for the purpose of building up the others present.

He lists things that each person may contribute, but he does not insist every person must contribute. These include a hymn, perhaps from the Psalms, a lesson, most likely from one with the gift of teaching, a revelation, perhaps by someone with the gift of prophecy.

Major, you made some good points. I will even admit that I too once used to believe that Paul did not intend that every person must contribute. Let's look at what he said:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

That phraseology does express an all-inclusive language, in that "Whenever," which does not leave room for any meeting exclusions, and "each of you," which, again, seems to be all-inclusive...in the sense that nobody should be excluded who has something. It even intimates that each one has something to contribute besides just warmth for the wood of a pew or plastic of a chair.

I do agree with you, however, in that Paul was not making demands that everyone must contribute all those things, but that everyone has one of those, or something else of value, to contribute that can edify the others present. If I show up and contribute only my good looks, then my presence isn't of any real value for edification or fellowship...(snicker, snort).

MM

 

[Major]

Yeh I watched a sermon once online and was impressed with what the pastor was preaching then he started speaking in tongues at the end and I started to feel unsure because I don’t speak in tongues. Nor do I want to.

So Basically, I didn’t dump him just because I don’t like tongue talking. I still like to watch his sermons now and then. I take what I am impressed by that speaks to me sincerely and forget the rest. It works quite well actually.

Be very careful.........that is the art of deception! The right hand does not know what is in the left hand!

 

[Major]

Major, you made some good points. I will even admit that I too once used to believe that Paul did not intend that every person must contribute. Let's look at what he said:

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

That phraseology does express an all-inclusive language, in that "Whenever," which does not leave room for any meeting exclusions, and "each of you," which, again, seems to be all-inclusive...in the sense that nobody should be excluded who has something. It even intimates that each one has something to contribute besides just warmth for the wood of a pew or plastic of a chair.

I do agree with you, however, in that Paul was not making demands that everyone must contribute all those things, but that everyone has one of those, or something else of value, to contribute that can edify the others present. If I show up and contribute only my good looks, then my presence isn't of any real value for edification or fellowship...(snicker, snort).

MM

As always, it is a blessing to speak with you.

All I am saying is that Paul demanded ORDER. I would guess that anyone and everyone could contribute whatever gift that they had, but it had to be in ORDER so that everyone would know what was being said or done.

Keep up the good work!