Jehovah, English or Hebrew?

[Ginger]

Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. That is why we cannot claim Jesus is the Father, even tho they are one in the same. They are not separate gods. They are One God.

I really think the H2O analogy explains it best - Three in One, all at the same time liquid/solid/vapor.
Think about it.....God remained in heaven while also becoming flesh on earth. How can that be? If God can create a substance, H2O, that can be everywhere at one time, all the time, and can take on different forms without changing, can be all three forms at once and each form can transform into the other, never chnging.....then why doubt God Himself can do all this and more. Is not the Creator far greater than His creation?

Water is not ice, but ice is water. Water is not vapor, but vapor is water.

Ginger

 

[mistmann]

Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. That is why we cannot claim Jesus is the Father, even tho they are one in the same. They are not separate gods. They are One God.

I really think the H2O analogy explains it best - Three in One, all at the same time liquid/solid/vapor.
Think about it.....God remained in heaven while also becoming flesh on earth. How can that be? If God can create a substance, H2O, that can be everywhere at one time, all the time, and can take on different forms without changing, can be all three forms at once and each form can transform into the other, never chnging.....then why doubt God Himself can do all this and more. Is not the Creator far greater than His creation?

Water is not ice, but ice is water. Water is not vapor, but vapor is water.

Ginger

Not saying you are doing this Ginger, just taking the opportunity of explaining why understanding of the " Trinity" as three persons united and not one person divided is so important.

One of the dangers of the belief that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are but different manifestations of the same being is that you make Jesus to be non-existent. Jesus just becomes YHWH by another name. if the Father was in Heaven and cannot die and Jesus is just YHWH by another name then it was not a REAL person who died on the cross for our sins but a " hologram" as it were of YHWH. Our Father was in Heaven when Jesus died on the cross, we know this because Jesus called out to Him before He died. So if Jesus is only YHWH by another name and YHWH was in Heaven at the time then nobody actually died on the cross, just a "manifestation" of YHWH who was actually in Heaven at the time.

You can see how the idea that Jesus was not a real person but just a manifestation of YHWH becomes a dangerous road to travel down apart from not being in accordance with scripture.

But Jesus IS a very real person. A real Son of God and hence also elohiym as the Father is elohiym (that is an immortal spiritual being) and also a real Son of Man ( that is, begotten of mortal flesh and blood - a real flesh and blood person).

What must be remembered is that Jesus did only the will of the Father and not His own will. He did as the Father did, He spoke as the Father spoke. THROUGH Jesus the Father spoke and acted BECAUSE Jesus set aside His own will and allowed the will and Spirit of the Father to work fully through Him. Jesus Himself has told us this in several places in the Bible. it is not difficult to understand how Jesus could truthfully declare that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father because He acted like the Father, He spoke like the Father, He loved like the Father, He had the power and authority of the Father and in His spiritual form ( as exposed at the transfiguration and in the revelation of John) He also looked like the Father.

There is a saying "like father, like son" . There is also a saying of those who are not the same person but who are identical in every way - " if you have seen one you have seen the other".

Now take a look at what Jesus said in the full context:-

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. "

Note how even here Jesus did NOT say " I am the Father and the Father is me"! Rather what He did say was "I am IN ( ie. Abide in) the Father, and the Father IN me."

BUT the truly glorious promise is that just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, WE TOO are destined to be a part of that very same oneness. For as the Father is ONE with the Son and the Son is ONE with the Father so they are to be ONE with us and we one with them:-

John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Mr. Mistmann...

It is written... "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee; rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.."

Allow me to say, I have been rightly rebuked about the beliefs of Mr. Mistmann, I am impressed with your truth.:. Let me love you for your correcting my assuming falsely about you, asking for forgiveness. Seeking to prove, I am not a scorner.

What you have written about Jesus, let me praise you for it, and claim love for you as a Brother of Christ our lord.. You interpretation of God, YHWH and Jesus, reminds me of my perceptions 30 years ago...Which has a solid base in truth rooted in faith in Jesus...I ask for your forgiveness for my harsh words towards you. I am poor of speech at making myself clear, how Judaic rooted faithful rightly hold to Monotheism and One God truth related to Jesus....

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.

 

[mistmann]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Mr. Mistmann...

It is written... "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee; rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.."

Allow me to say, I have been rightly rebuked about the beliefs of Mr. Mistmann, I am impressed with your truth.:. Let me love you for your correcting my assuming falsely about you, asking for forgiveness. Seeking to prove, I am not a scorner.

What you have written about Jesus, let me praise you for it, and claim love for you as a Brother of Christ our lord.. You interpretation of God, YHWH and Jesus, reminds me of my perceptions 30 years ago...Which has a solid base in truth rooted in faith in Jesus...I ask for your forgiveness for my harsh words towards you. I am poor of speech at making myself clear, how Judaic rooted faithful rightly hold to Monotheism and One God truth related to Jesus....

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.

May I commend you Spiritofprophecy for it is to your credit that where many would have simply apologised you have sought my forgiveness, which, I hasten to add, you certainly have.

I find that forums like this are a kind of "Damascus Road". There are those who, like Saul, begin their journey here with the intent to persecute Christians. But why they are here is not as important as the fact that they are here and have the opportunity to see how followers of Christ resolve their differences and readily give and receive forgiveness. That we can allow love to cover a multitude of accidental sins is to allow those who journey here the opportunity to encounter Christ in action. Perhaps, like Saul who became Paul, some may find it a frofoundly life-changing encounter.

Regards Misty.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

I do not like being in conflict with administrators or with Moderators, usually they seek to moderate, not take sides or seek to influence threads, beyond mere opinion.... It would seem I have been accuse of abridging the rules of forum by two moderators !

The first Point; is in the use of the Word "Blasphemy"; if one will reread my post which is consistent with my use of the term... Taking a statement, as a generic term, claiming " One can say this is Blasphemy"..." or that a term can be viewed as Blasphemy"..For the record, I never said,, your a Blasphemer, or these words of you do Blaspheme, without quantifying it with " Could be".. Saying only, that it can be seen and viewed as something which is Blaspheme. One is direct accusation, the other is third party opinion...Which I gave an opinion. Which I did not see opinion as against the rules...

Second...As one who actually reads the rules, and who actually interprets Gods words as they are written as I do also with the rules... After reading the rules, I did not find one reference of the word " Trinity" or the forum being devoted to this concept of " Tradition of men". Which devotion would be in conflict with the avowed rule. #1. " The Holy Scriptures, in its original form, is the inerrant form of God"... The word Trinity is not there in the word, lest one embellishes.

As to trinity...Rule #2...There is One God who reveals himself as Father, Son and holy Spirit. Perfectly true in my opinion, which can include a form of Trinity of perception of a one God. or..There is One God, who reveals himself to man in a Trinity of knowledge.

If the Moderators believe there is an unspoken " Silent Traditional Trinity rule".. Which is a tradition of men. Then I am not a Precept of men follower, or Traditions of men believer, but a believer in Rule # 1... The " inerrant word of God". If this forum is a forum of the precepts of men, and rules based upon these Traditions, which most Traditions have been proven to be " Anti God" Flat earth as example. Then I am good at taking hints, and will dust off my sandals and depart in peace... Also if Moderators or Administration do feel, they would wish this Member SOP " a Scripturalist ", to find another forums to fellowship and speak. I also will heed their request, and depart without rancor or recriminations. Not being where I am not wanted.

If giving my opinions is to break the rules...? or Being a Scripturalist and believer in the " inerrant word of God", not precepts or traditions of men.... Administration decision...

My opinion is that rule # 2...One God who reveals himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. is not 3 Gods who come together as one. If God is inerrant, and All knowing, he knows the word " Trinity" yet did not use it....! Can man correct God in truth..? I don't think So...God who reveals himself as Father,Son and Holy spirit, can be the One God reveals himself in Three ways to man or a Trinity revelation....

My whole premise of thread, is that Judaic interpretation which is established by God, Prophets and Jesus; can accept rule # 2, but cannot accept 3 Gods who are one. And if God cannot die, and or Know death, God is not Omnipotent, " Can do anything"...God did the unthinkable, and became flesh, made as Grass to suffer and die as the " lamb of God"...Amen..A Judaic Messianic truth.

If the " Traditional Trinity belief" what ever that might be, is one of the rules of Forum, and then not contradicting rule #1. But I could not find the " Trinity rule in the forum rules"..!

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

 

[HisManySongs]

As to trinity...Rule #2...There is One God who reveals himself as Father, Son and holy Spirit. Perfectly true in my opinion, which can include a form of Trinity of perception of a one God. or..There is One God, who reveals himself to man in a Trinity of knowledge.

If the Moderators believe there is an unspoken " Silent Traditional Trinity rule".. Which is a tradition of men. Then I am not a Precept of men follower, or Traditions of men believer, but a believer in Rule # 1... The " inerrant word of God". If this forum is a forum of the precepts of men, and rules based upon these Traditions, which most Traditions have been proven to be " Anti God" Flat earth as example. Then I am good at taking hints, and will dust off my sandals and depart in peace... Also if Moderators or Administration do feel, they would wish this Member SOP " a Scripturalist ", to find another forums to fellowship and speak. I also will heed their request, and depart without rancor or recriminations. Not being where I am not wanted.

If giving my opinions is to break the rules...? or Being a Scripturalist and believer in the " inerrant word of God", not precepts or traditions of men.... Administration decision...

My opinion is that rule # 2...One God who reveals himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. is not 3 Gods who come together as one. If God is inerrant, and All knowing, he knows the word " Trinity" yet did not use it....! Can man correct God in truth..? I don't think So...God who reveals himself as Father,Son and Holy spirit, can be the One God reveals himself in Three ways to man or a Trinity revelation....

My whole premise of thread, is that Judaic interpretation which is established by God, Prophets and Jesus; can accept rule # 2, but cannot accept 3 Gods who are one. And if God cannot die, and or Know death, God is not Omnipotent, " Can do anything"...God did the unthinkable, and became flesh, made as Grass to suffer and die as the " lamb of God"...Amen..A Judaic Messianic truth.

If the " Traditional Trinity belief" what ever that might be, is one of the rules of Forum, and then not contradicting rule #1. But I could not find the " Trinity rule in the forum rules"..!

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

The 'rule # 2' you mention [2) There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.] is not a rule but rather the second item of the Statement of Faith to which all members agree as part of their registration.

 

[mistmann]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

I do not like being in conflict with administrators or with Moderators, usually they seek to moderate, not take sides or seek to influence threads, beyond mere opinion.... It would seem I have been accuse of abridging the rules of forum by two moderators !

The first Point; is in the use of the Word "Blasphemy"; if one will reread my post which is consistent with my use of the term... Taking a statement, as a generic term, claiming " One can say this is Blasphemy"..." or that a term can be viewed as Blasphemy"..For the record, I never said,, your a Blasphemer, or these words of you do Blaspheme, without quantifying it with " Could be".. Saying only, that it can be seen and viewed as something which is Blaspheme. One is direct accusation, the other is third party opinion...Which I gave an opinion. Which I did not see opinion as against the rules...

Second...As one who actually reads the rules, and who actually interprets Gods words as they are written as I do also with the rules... After reading the rules, I did not find one reference of the word " Trinity" or the forum being devoted to this concept of " Tradition of men". Which devotion would be in conflict with the avowed rule. #1. " The Holy Scriptures, in its original form, is the inerrant form of God"... The word Trinity is not there in the word, lest one embellishes.

As to trinity...Rule #2...There is One God who reveals himself as Father, Son and holy Spirit. Perfectly true in my opinion, which can include a form of Trinity of perception of a one God. or..There is One God, who reveals himself to man in a Trinity of knowledge.

If the Moderators believe there is an unspoken " Silent Traditional Trinity rule".. Which is a tradition of men. Then I am not a Precept of men follower, or Traditions of men believer, but a believer in Rule # 1... The " inerrant word of God". If this forum is a forum of the precepts of men, and rules based upon these Traditions, which most Traditions have been proven to be " Anti God" Flat earth as example. Then I am good at taking hints, and will dust off my sandals and depart in peace... Also if Moderators or Administration do feel, they would wish this Member SOP " a Scripturalist ", to find another forums to fellowship and speak. I also will heed their request, and depart without rancor or recriminations. Not being where I am not wanted.

If giving my opinions is to break the rules...? or Being a Scripturalist and believer in the " inerrant word of God", not precepts or traditions of men.... Administration decision...

My opinion is that rule # 2...One God who reveals himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. is not 3 Gods who come together as one. If God is inerrant, and All knowing, he knows the word " Trinity" yet did not use it....! Can man correct God in truth..? I don't think So...God who reveals himself as Father,Son and Holy spirit, can be the One God reveals himself in Three ways to man or a Trinity revelation....

My whole premise of thread, is that Judaic interpretation which is established by God, Prophets and Jesus; can accept rule # 2, but cannot accept 3 Gods who are one. And if God cannot die, and or Know death, God is not Omnipotent, " Can do anything"...God did the unthinkable, and became flesh, made as Grass to suffer and die as the " lamb of God"...Amen..A Judaic Messianic truth.

If the " Traditional Trinity belief" what ever that might be, is one of the rules of Forum, and then not contradicting rule #1. But I could not find the " Trinity rule in the forum rules"..!

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

Which is easier to say The Lord reveals Himself AS the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? The Lord reveals Himself IN the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? or the Lord reveals Himself THROUGH the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?


The bottom line is that the Lord Almighty has interacted with mankind through the avenue of three persons. All three speak the words of the Lord Almighty, all three do the will of the Lord Almighty, all three act in the power and authority of the Lord Almighty. Three persons who have bound themselves one to another in total unity and who speak and act and work as ONE. So that no matter which one you interact with you interact with all three and with the one and only Lord Almighty for while there are three persons there is only ONE will and ONE power and authority, that of the Lord Almighty.

Perhaps this helps to understand.

 

[Ginger]

........... Three persons who have bound themselves one to another in total unity and who speak and act and work as ONE. So that no matter which one you interact with you interact with all three and with the one and only Lord Almighty for while there are three persons there is only ONE will and ONE power and authority, that of the Lord Almighty.

Perhaps this helps to understand.

That is not what the church fathers were teaching when the came up with the Trinity doctrine. The original Greek word "one" which Jesus used to state his relationship to the Father did not mean "one in complete agreement" or of the same mind/will. It meant One Essence.

That is why I like the water liquid/vaper/solid analogy.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

If I may, let me first thank every reader on the thread for their interest and participation in this thread; as I shall praise Jesus for their desire to wrestle with the spirit, to seek the root truths of Gods Hidden wisdom...! " It is the Glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."

If I may first speak to the word " Blaspheme".. which does seem to have a different meaning from the Bibles original (Judaic) meaning, opposed to what is the English dictionary interpretation; which is to " Curse"..This is not the Bible truth of Blaspheme; The Judaic Blaspheme is the " speak untruth related to God or his word", which would include adding to Gods words, or speaking about things as if truth, which contradict Gods words.

We Christians have a bad habit of adding too or taking away from Gods words, by interpreting out of " desires of flesh" ! To construct the scriptures in a Polytheistic concepts, separating out faith from the foundation Monotheism root. Peter actually resisted the dream from Jesus himself in spiritual dreams, being directed to allow Gentiles into the Church. Gentiles receiving baptism of the Spirit, was banned and opposed by the early Church of Jerusalem.

Back to Monotheism and Jesus as God; which Jesus is of the "God head". Head is singular, and how can their be a head of authority and in division, being not one ? If God is one, Isaiah 9:6-7; Is the definitive verses of perspective of Jesus with the " inerrant word of God". It actually says a Child born, with having names of " Wonderful Counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, and prince of peace." A child born, must be a human. But child has title or names of " everlasting Father" which is confirmation of Hebrews 7. that Jesus had not beginning, and born of flesh, yet is also the everlasting Father, and mighty God. Which Includes being of the " Godhead". Child"s or " His Kingdom shall have no end". In the end the Ultimate power, which is this child..!!! Jesus becomes the Ultimate ruler of all, authority having "No end". Isaiah 9:7.

It's really hard for Christians to believe God the Father, would become " As grass" and actually die as a man. Which act would be the Ultimate sign to man, of Gods love for man, to save man from his own sin. Include the establish Judaic truth of One God, which is to forgive sins, and only God "being good" and " sinless". These terms fit only Jesus, which the Messiah mantle belongs with the "Lamb of God" Jesus is a " Husbandman". And the Lord God himself is priced at " 30 pieces of silver". What are these wounds in thy hands? they ask the Lord, " the wounds I received when I stayed in the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:5-6.

Since I have received two reprimands from Moderators; I shall assume I am guilty and in the doghouse...! Respecting authorities to be, and properly restraining and limiting my comments in forum accordingly... With rule 5.2.... I must assume questioning these reprimands is wrong. I did believe " Help/Community rules" section did mean all sub divisions of section " Statement of faith, Mission, forum rules"... these were all under the subsection of " Community rules", which I did apply term as such.

I have enjoyed the forum, and will honor the Administrations decision of " breaking rules" and impose a self ban upon myself. Too much controversy it would seem. I shall claim love for all.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

 

[mistmann]

That is not what the church fathers were teaching when the came up with the Trinity doctrine. The original Greek word "one" which Jesus used to state his relationship to the Father did not mean "one in complete agreement" or of the same mind/will. It meant One Essence.

That is why I like the water liquid/vaper/solid analogy.

I have already said both are elohiym (of immortal spirit) but what is "essence" if not also of mind and will? Remember Satan was also elohiym but clearly not one with the Father or Jesus.

 

[mistmann]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Include the establish Judaic truth of One God, which is to forgive sins, and only God "being good" and " sinless".

If you are still with us SpiritofProphecy what intrigues me is why you uphold Judaic traditional beliefs and interpretations when Christ Jesus Himself thoroughly discredited and condemned them?

Mark 7:6 "...Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. "

Luke 12:1 "Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

Matthew 23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

It was the keepers of the Judaic TRADITIONAL beliefs that crucified Christ, why is it you keep upholding them as any kind of authority?

Jesus did not look to what was traditionally taught for His authority but what was WRITTEN on the pages of the actual scriptures. On what the Lord has declared not what the keepers of "tradition" declared.

 

[sdcougar]

Just a technical note on the Origin of "Jehovah"

YHWH or JHVH, the name of God, is know as the Tetragrammaton or four letters, as someone mentioned.

This is what is written in the Hebrew text [which is written in consonants and the vowels are supplied by the reader].

As an aid to reading, the Masoretes [from the 7th to 10th centuries A.D.] added the vowel points to the Hebrew text. When they came to Yod He Vau He [the four consonants] they put the vowel points for ADONAI [Lord] because the sacred Name was not read by them. Instead they read ADONAI, Lord.

So, to the consonants, JHVH, was added the vowels of adonai...A O Ai which gives you
JaHoVaH

Jehovah is thus a mistake, the combination of letters from two different words and never existed before the Christian era.

 

[Y'shua friend.]

There is no "J" in the Hebrew alphabet, the inserted (J) is the result of the Greek to English translation.

Yeshua friend. Shalom!
ישו חבר. שלום

 

[Arius]

There is no "J" in the Hebrew alphabet, the inserted (J) is the result of the Greek to English translation.

When the KJV was written, it had no J. The J comes from modern spelling.

But, you can't be so sure ancient Hebrew had no J. Languages change over time. In a short time, I became a J, in English. If that change happened in a short time, just a much longer time. Hebrew was a dead language for most of the last 2000 years, and almost nothing in the way of Hebrew manuscripts surviving from the first 2000 years. We really know little about ancient pronunciation. It's even worse than this, ancient Hebrew was written without vowels, making the original pronunciation all the more obscure.

When someone speaks in Hebrew today, it's a matter of "We don't know how the language sounded 3000 years ago, but let's pretend we do."

 

[Yeshua friend.]

The Greeks used an (I) and spelled it Isus, the King James scholars changed the (I) to a (J) One can not find a (J) in the Hebrew/Aramaic parchments as far back as Iyov = (Job). Y'hoshua = (Joshua) Shof'tim =(Judges) Yirmeyahu = (Jeremiah) Yo'el = (Joel) Yonah = (Jonah) Yochanan = (John) Ya'akov = (James) Y'hudah = (Jude) Yahweh = (Jehovah). YHVH, proper name He called Himself Ehyeh asher Ehyeh.= I Am that I Am. Shalom!
ישו חבר. שלום

 

[Arius]

The Greeks used an (I) and spelled it Isus, the King James scholars changed the (I) to a (J) One can not find a (J) in the Hebrew/Aramaic parchments as far back as Iyov = (Job). Y'hoshua = (Joshua) Shof'tim =(Judges) Yirmeyahu = (Jeremiah) Yo'el = (Joel) Yonah = (Jonah) Yochanan = (John) Ya'akov = (James) Y'hudah = (Jude) Yahweh = (Jehovah). YHVH, proper name He called Himself Ehyeh asher Ehyeh.= I Am that I Am. Shalom!
ישו חבר. שלום

Oh, you want to play the "Is too! Is not!" game. The King James scholars did not change the I to a J.

And, still we don't know how the words in ancient Hebrew were pronounced.

Also, the Hebrew word for name doesn't necessarily mean proper name. It seems pointless for God to have a proper name.

 

[Arius]

If I may suggest, the true name and Holy name of God is the name we use as our Lord.."Jesus"

This I agree with.

I don't object to people using "Jehovah", but this word appears to have been invented around 1100AD (and, not appearing in English until centuries later), when vowels were added to the Hebrew scripture (guesswork). The theory is that the vowels for the Hebrew word for Lord were inserted. The standard translation of JHVH, including in the Greek scriptures used by the Apostles, is Lord, or LORD.

Jesus is the only name under heaven given to man by which we may be saved.

 

[Panda]

I only caution on that answer to the extent that this is how "Oneness" churches view God, and from that perspective they view the Trinity as Heresy. All other Protestant churches view denial of Trinity to be Heresy. I don't care to open up that discussion though because on this site, we have a statement of faith that is consistent with the Trinitarian view and direct denial of that usually results in a ban. So, please exercise caution with this particular subject.