Jehovah's Witnesses

[Brother Paul]

That is a tough one MM but when I have met with a pair at my door I usually bait them by saying I have been studying the Bible and have a few questions. The non-elder is always the one that speaks up and offers to help.

First I ask them if they believe the Bible is true? They always answer yes! And I ask them do they believe it? and they always yes! Then I bring them to Deuteronomy 10:17 and ask them to read it out loud...and they read

For Jehovah your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great and mighty and awesome God, who regards not persons, nor takes reward...

So I say "My understanding is that the Bible says Jehovah God IS the Lord of all lords, is this correct?" And they always say, "It is!"

Then I say, "So Jehovah God is the God and doesn't Isaiah 45:5 say "I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God beside me." That's correct they say...

I tell them King David agrees in Psalm 136:6 that Jehovah God IS the Lord of lords...but here is my question...could you please read Revelations 17:14 out loud....And they do...it reads

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings"

So I ask "Who is the Lord of lords?" They say Jehovah! And I say, "I'm sorry could you read it again? And they do, then I ask, "But who does the Bible say is the Lord of lords in this passage..?" They ponder stumped because they know there cannot be two Lord of lords...

Unconscious conclusion?

If Jehovah IS the Lord of lords and there is none else, and the Bible which is true says the Lamb IS the Lord of lords, then the Lamb must be Jehovah!

We argue a bit but the seed is planted in the newbie...but before they leave I ask one more thing...do they obey the word of God? They say of course...I say then in who's name should we speak and act, and they say Jehovah so then I ask them to please read outloud Colossians 3:17 and ask why they do not obey the word of God? Excusing myself I say "because you do not obey the word...what can I learn from you?"...and then I close the door....even if they are still speaking...if they come back we can speak more...

God knows them that are His so plant a good seed, another will water, and God will give the increase...in due season you will reap.

In His love of course...

Paul

 

[guest4]

If you say that to them, they'll just respond by saying, "that's three gods."

Maybe all of this is just conjecture though. Perhaps The Holy Ghost would be speaking thru me and I wouldnt be speaking on my own. Then it wont matter because God would be working on thier heart.

psalm 81:10 the kjv says it best.

 

[Dave Lucas]

Illuminati a myth, really? So politicians, singers, actors/actresses, bands, brands, etc. are not involved with a secret Satanic organization that promotes the 666, all-seeing eye, pyramids, etc?

The illuminati all died a long long time ago.

Perhaps you're confusing them with The Brotherhood?

 

[Dave Lucas]

The

I don't know if there are Jehovah's Witnesses in this discussion, and if so, what I'm going to say is personal opinion and I mean it respectfully.

There are three main problems/issues I have with the JW faith.

First one is this, and I know about it firsthand: They will allow family members to die rather than give them blood transfusions which would otherwise save their lives. They do this because of the texts in Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:10, Deuteronomy 12:23, and Acts 15:28-29, but since those texts refer to EATING blood I'm not quite sure why they see it as the same thing as USING blood for medical purposes.

They also do not celebrate any birthdays, including Christmas, again for scriptural reasons - apparently two bad things happen in the Bible during birthday celebrations. One is Salome asking for the head of John the Baptist, and I forget the other. But in each case it's simply a matter of things coincidentally having bad outcomes, which didn't occur BECAUSE of the birthday. They don't see it that way, and take it as an "obvious" message that we are not to celebrate them. I've also been told that it puts self-glorification above God, although why a simple celebration of another year of life on this earth would mean you're putting yourself above God, again, you're on your own...I have no idea why they think that.

Finally, the church practices shunning and disfellowshipping, which they see as LOVING acts. I've seen whole documentaries on this subject. There is NOTHING loving about these practices, they tear the entire fabric of families apart by the roots. They do this to members whom they say have strayed - someone passes judgment and bang, they are out. No further contact from family members is permitted.

I'm not for the holiday of Christmas for two reasons. Even though I'm not part of the witnesses.

The most important one, wrong day.

The second, it was usurp a heretical roman holiday.

I have the same issue with Easter.

Having a holiday just to get new converts is deceitful. Not to mention never once did The King say celebrate my birthday.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

The


I'm not for the holiday of Christmas for two reasons. Even though I'm not part of the witnesses.

The most important one, wrong day.

The second, it was usurp a heretical roman holiday.

I have the same issue with Easter.

Having a holiday just to get new converts is deceitful. Not to mention never once did The King say celebrate my birthday.

Is the exact day really so important, though? As long as there is one designated day per year to give someone appreciation?

Also if it happens to coincide with a "heretical Roman holiday", does THAT matter, when YOU are the one who knows you are celebrating the birthday of Jesus?

I've seen this argument before, people saying "Well you think it's Christmas but it's really Saturnalia." And I think, yeah, but I've never even HEARD of Saturnalia, so is it really possible for me to be celebrating something accidentally, or celebrating something I have never even heard of?

If my experiences are from going to church and being told Dec. 25 is when we celebrate Christmas and know it as a day of celebrating Jesus' birth in addition to appreciating my family, friends and general good cheer, how does something like Saturnalia even FIGURE in the equation? I'm sure Jesus doesn't care.

 

[Dave Lucas]

Is the exact day really so important, though? As long as there is one designated day per year to give someone appreciation?

Also if it happens to coincide with a "heretical Roman holiday", does THAT matter, when YOU are the one who knows you are celebrating the birthday of Jesus?

It is deception. The King is for the Truth. I agree with The King.

I've seen this argument before, people saying "Well you think it's Christmas but it's really Saturnalia." And I think, yeah, but I've never even HEARD of Saturnalia, so is it really possible for me to be celebrating something accidentally, or celebrating something I have never even heard of?

If my experiences are from going to church and being told Dec. 25 is when we celebrate Christmas and know it as a day of celebrating Jesus' birth in addition to appreciating my family, friends and general good cheer, how does something like Saturnalia even FIGURE in the equation? I'm sure Jesus doesn't care.

Again, it is deception. That is an art of the Enemy.

If you use the arts and devices of the enemy you become the enemy.

Is that what The King teaches? Is it what he allows?

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

If you use the arts and devices of the enemy you become the enemy.

Is that what The King teaches? Is it what he allows?

No one is being deceived. It's common knowledge that many of the Christian holidays coincide with pagan celebrations as a means of wooing people. What matters is what's in your heart. If you've got Jesus in your mind as well as your heart when you are celebrating Christmas there is no deception. And it's always been the most joyous and happy time of year for me.

 

[Mitspa]

That is a tough one MM but when I have met with a pair at my door I usually bait them by saying I have been studying the Bible and have a few questions. The non-elder is always the one that speaks up and offers to help.

First I ask them if they believe the Bible is true? They always answer yes! And I ask them do they believe it? and they always yes! Then I bring them to Deuteronomy 10:17 and ask them to read it out loud...and they read

For Jehovah your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great and mighty and awesome God, who regards not persons, nor takes reward...

So I say "My understanding is that the Bible says Jehovah God IS the Lord of all lords, is this correct?" And they always say, "It is!"

Then I say, "So Jehovah God is the God and doesn't Isaiah 45:5 say "I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no God beside me." That's correct they say...

I tell them King David agrees in Psalm 136:6 that Jehovah God IS the Lord of lords...but here is my question...could you please read Revelations 17:14 out loud....And they do...it reads

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings"

So I ask "Who is the Lord of lords?" They say Jehovah! And I say, "I'm sorry could you read it again? And they do, then I ask, "But who does the Bible say is the Lord of lords in this passage..?" They ponder stumped because they know there cannot be two Lord of lords...

Unconscious conclusion?

If Jehovah IS the Lord of lords and there is none else, and the Bible which is true says the Lamb IS the Lord of lords, then the Lamb must be Jehovah!

We argue a bit but the seed is planted in the newbie...but before they leave I ask one more thing...do they obey the word of God? They say of course...I say then in who's name should we speak and act, and they say Jehovah so then I ask them to please read outloud Colossians 3:17 and ask why they do not obey the word of God? Excusing myself I say "because you do not obey the word...what can I learn from you?"...and then I close the door....even if they are still speaking...if they come back we can speak more...

God knows them that are His so plant a good seed, another will water, and God will give the increase...in due season you will reap.

In His love of course...

Paul

My wise Brother Paul...you remain a blessing on this forum...

 

[Brother Paul]

Yeah I don't care about their holiday perspective, the Bible attaches no significance whatsoever to His birthday (proper) its the nature of His birth...I do not even care about their lack of concern regarding "Trinity" (the Bible again does not say we must believe this to be saved), but this Jesus as a secondary created god thing that is another matter altogether, or that God is not the Holy Spirit, and so on...and for me the fact this organization beguiles these seekers and traps them with psycho-emotional doctrinal loops and threatens disfellowship and so on is abominable to me though in the Middle Ages the RCC acted similarly (they controlled belief or else you were punished, burned at the stake, exiled, etc.)...

We have to love them out by reasoning with them from the scriptures, but it is hard...people who are trained to only see one way are most difficult to reason with.

Take the Muslims for example,

You show them the Qur'an says Jesus was a prophet and that a prophet cannot lie and what the prophet says IS the ordinance of God (all Qur'anic Doctrine), but then it says God has no Son...but Jesus said He was God's Son (Just ask a Jew) and that is why they accused Him of blaspheme...

So then either the Qur'an is correct and He being a prophet told God's revealed truth (He is the Son of God) which means the Qur'an is incorrect when it says God has no Son, or else it is true God has no Son and thus the Qur'an is wrong because this would mean Jesus lied and was not a prophet...they look at you like a cog is stuck (sputter sputter spit spit) or else get angry because the logic is undeniable yet they cannot cease to believe, being brainwashed with this inconsistency since birth...

JWs are different though because most came out of other "Christian" denominations wether having had bad experiences or poor Biblical instruction...learning to reason with them (planting the seed) is the first step, then water your garden with prayer (during and after the planting)...giving them to God (Philippians 4:4-9)

A great resource is found in Dr. Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults...only about 28 dollars hard copy but I think it is on line and lectures are on You Tube...

Do any of you have a New World Translation? There are over 50 places where they add or re-word to support their doctrine and many passages are just lined out...but Russell failed to eliminate many, many, passages that if taken together throw serious monkey wrenches in their cognitive machine...

I showed you "Two Lords of lords or one" but there are also "Two "only one true Savior" or only one? Two "King of all the Earth" or one? Two "I Am your Redeemer, or one"? and many more...

Most of them really love God and listen to the scriptures (though for them not rightly divided)...they are not far from the Kingdom...always be praying for them while speaking to them...

in His love

Paul

 

[Polly]

The illuminati all died a long long time ago.

Perhaps you're confusing them with The Brotherhood?

What is the Brotherhood then?

I don't think celebrities and companies/corporations/brands are involved in an organization that promote the all-seeing-eye, 666, Satan, demons, witchcraft, the selling of the soul to Satan, etc.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Jehovah's Witnesses are false prophets...

Well, that is informative.

In Finland, they just give everybody outside papers about the end of the world and then sometimes they have some microphones or speakerphones and they tell everybody that the end of the world is coming soon, and then they also have done false prophecies about the end of the world coming in 2012 for example.

And they also believe in some kind of watchtower thing, and the watchtower thing sounds like the Illuminati thing...

Most conservative people talk about the end of the world as well.

Do they also believe that aliens are demons and that the UFOs use diamonds as fuel and that we cannot go into an UFO to get healed by demons and that dinosaurs live under our level and they will rise from sinkholes and lakes and it's a BIG sin to kill a bird?

I don't think so.

What is the Brotherhood then?

I don't think celebrities and companies/corporations/brands are involved in an organization that promote the all-seeing-eye, 666, Satan, demons, witchcraft, the selling of the soul to Satan, etc.

Okay.

 

[Brother Paul]

What is the Brotherhood then?

I don't think celebrities and companies/corporations/brands are involved in an organization that promote the all-seeing-eye, 666, Satan, demons, witchcraft, the selling of the soul to Satan, etc.

I don't know if its a conscious plan (as in a Brotherhood) but many of them have the same ruling anti-Christ spirit. For about three years now I am always pointing out to my wife how on most TV shows, whenever there is an alleged serious Christian being portrayed, they are always the perpetrator, pervert, or twisted criminal...its always the Bible believers that are wacky and disturbed psycho-emotionally....in the News if there are 100 Christians and or organizations doing wonderful blessed charitable things (sometimes at risk to their own lives) for free (zero tax dollars spent) they will only mention the case here and there about some single individual who robbed the flock or slept with some lady (or guy) and so on...

You probably have not noticed this prejudice being subtly imposed on the masses, but now it should stick out....Sam Donaldson ( a key Anchor) here in America once said the news has nothing to do with truth any longer its all about "Shaping public opinion". What does this mean? They "engineer" what they want the masses to have as an opinion...Europe is astute at using rhetorical propaganda to get people to think that evil os good and good is evil...like the recent decision to approve judicially approved euthanization of children in Belgium...as one example...

I just wanted to reveal this for your edification...the masses are being slowly but systematically "shaped" to believe Christians are "haters" and that the point of the mythos called the Bible is "hate" and discrimination...this is a necessary social atmosphere that will allow for the success of the person of the Anti-Christ when he is revealed...the rest of the world will feel totally justified in persecuting us and the AC will appear to be the Savior for cutting off our heads if we refuse the mark...(whatever that will be)

Be aware this is coming soon to a theatre near you....

Keep the faith and do not waver to the right or the left...

Paul

 

[Polly]

I don't know if its a conscious plan (as in a Brotherhood) but many of them have the same ruling anti-Christ spirit. For about three years now I am always pointing out to my wife how on most TV shows, whenever there is an alleged serious Christian being portrayed, they are always the perpetrator, pervert, or twisted criminal...its always the Bible believers that are wacky and disturbed psycho-emotionally....in the News if there are 100 Christians and or organizations doing wonderful blessed charitable things (sometimes at risk to their own lives) for free (zero tax dollars spent) they will only mention the case here and there about some single individual who robbed the flock or slept with some lady (or guy) and so on...

You probably have not noticed this prejudice being subtly imposed on the masses, but now it should stick out....Sam Donaldson here in America once said the news has nothing to do with truth any longer its all about "Shaping public opinion". What does this mean? They "engineer" what the want the masses to have as an opinion...

I just wanted to reveal this for your edification...the masses are being slowly but systematically "shaped" to believe Christians are "haters" and that the point of the mythos called the Bible is "hate" and discrimination...this is a necessary social atmosphere that will allow for the success of the person of the Anti-Christ when he is revealed...the rest of the world will feel totally justified in persecuting us and the AC will appear to be the Savior for cutting off our heads if we refuse the mark...(whatever that will be)

Be aware this is coming soon to a theatre near you....

Keep the faith and do not waver to the right or the left...

Paul

O_O

What movie is it?

 

[Dave Lucas]

I don't know if its a conscious plan (as in a Brotherhood) but many of them have the same ruling anti-Christ spirit. For about three years now I am always pointing out to my wife how on most TV shows, whenever there is an alleged serious Christian being portrayed, they are always the perpetrator, pervert, or twisted criminal...its always the Bible believers that are wacky and disturbed psycho-emotionally....in the News if there are 100 Christians and or organizations doing wonderful blessed charitable things (sometimes at risk to their own lives) for free (zero tax dollars spent) they will only mention the case here and there about some single individual who robbed the flock or slept with some lady (or guy) and so on...

You probably have not noticed this prejudice being subtly imposed on the masses, but now it should stick out....Sam Donaldson ( a key Anchor) here in America once said the news has nothing to do with truth any longer its all about "Shaping public opinion". What does this mean? They "engineer" what they want the masses to have as an opinion...Europe is astute at using rhetorical propaganda to get people to think that evil os good and good is evil...like the recent decision to approve judicially approved euthanization of children in Belgium...as one example...

I just wanted to reveal this for your edification...the masses are being slowly but systematically "shaped" to believe Christians are "haters" and that the point of the mythos called the Bible is "hate" and discrimination...this is a necessary social atmosphere that will allow for the success of the person of the Anti-Christ when he is revealed...the rest of the world will feel totally justified in persecuting us and the AC will appear to be the Savior for cutting off our heads if we refuse the mark...(whatever that will be)

Be aware this is coming soon to a theatre near you....

Keep the faith and do not waver to the right or the left...

Paul

Paul I hate to say this but this is nothing new on either side of the fence and is part and parcel to mankind
being of a sinful nature and holding onto it.

We were all bamboozled into fear the Soviets because first they were commies (they weren't), then they were going to kill us all with fission weapons (again they weren't). Governments love to use fear to control people. Keep them from seeing their own corruption as they hide behind patriotism and religion.

Now the Christians being bad is nothing new either. And much of that is sadly self-created by making ideals that they have no way of keeping (hypocrisy). So the leadership blathers on and on about doing this and being that making unrealistic goals for people. They often cannot keep them either.

That is why it is crucial to make everyone know that we are fallible. That we cannot condemn people or point fingers of blame.
And that we have to give pointers on how The King would handle life, not just say don't do this or that. Suggest how to do things.

Which do you think would work better?

Person is gossiping.
GOD hates gossip! Stop it! or,
If someone were to gossip about you, how would that make you feel?

Which do you think would be more productive?
WHY is it more productive?

People are going to talk bad about followers of The King. That is standard operating procedure. WHY would we be shocked, dismayed or saddened by it. The King said it would be. Be glad that it is happening. When it stops, then you can worry.

And let's try not to speak badly of the people not with The King. Follow that second command.

Instead of using the stick more than the carrot, how about we not use the stick at all and just give the carrots away?

Give to these people.
Show them the change in our lives.
Bless them at all opportunities.
Do good to them.

That's what God does.
He gives them food, money, shelter and clothing. Even when they are absolutely the worst people on the planet.

All in all, their evil is far worse for them than it is for us.

Bless them and let God handle it. For all we know there are terrible wars going on in their heads and they could not think straight to save their lives. Don't make it worse, let God sort it out.

 

[Mitspa]

I don't know if its a conscious plan (as in a Brotherhood) but many of them have the same ruling anti-Christ spirit. For about three years now I am always pointing out to my wife how on most TV shows, whenever there is an alleged serious Christian being portrayed, they are always the perpetrator, pervert, or twisted criminal...its always the Bible believers that are wacky and disturbed psycho-emotionally....in the News if there are 100 Christians and or organizations doing wonderful blessed charitable things (sometimes at risk to their own lives) for free (zero tax dollars spent) they will only mention the case here and there about some single individual who robbed the flock or slept with some lady (or guy) and so on...

You probably have not noticed this prejudice being subtly imposed on the masses, but now it should stick out....Sam Donaldson ( a key Anchor) here in America once said the news has nothing to do with truth any longer its all about "Shaping public opinion". What does this mean? They "engineer" what they want the masses to have as an opinion...Europe is astute at using rhetorical propaganda to get people to think that evil os good and good is evil...like the recent decision to approve judicially approved euthanization of children in Belgium...as one example...

I just wanted to reveal this for your edification...the masses are being slowly but systematically "shaped" to believe Christians are "haters" and that the point of the mythos called the Bible is "hate" and discrimination...this is a necessary social atmosphere that will allow for the success of the person of the Anti-Christ when he is revealed...the rest of the world will feel totally justified in persecuting us and the AC will appear to be the Savior for cutting off our heads if we refuse the mark...(whatever that will be)

Be aware this is coming soon to a theatre near you....

Keep the faith and do not waver to the right or the left...

Paul

No doubt and the attack against the scriptures will continue and increase until they are outlawed altogether as they once was.