Kind of confused, need a little clarification
- Thread starter NearertoGod
- Start date
- Status
I also find no basis for purgatory in scripture. Jesus talked explicitly about Heaven and Hell, so why would He not make it clear about purgatory. Why wouldn't He name a place, just like Heaven and Hell? And like one person said on here, If there was a purgatory, then the cross was not only cruel but pointless. He said "It is finished". The work of salvation, the passion is finished.
J. Damascene
Inactive
Even if it isn't explicitly Biblical, Purgatory is logical. Purgatory is merely another step in salvation. It in no way negates the cross- rather, it fulfills it by completing our santification.
So accepting Christ as or Savior and following Him isn't enough?
I was wondering what ya'll think of this verse...
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
This is of course talking about the day of judgement:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Works based on man's efforts hold no eternal value and will be consumed.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Works based on man's efforts hold no eternal value and will be consumed.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
It in no way seems logical to me as Jesus did a complete work on the cross.
But logic cannot comprehend God anyway
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
J. Damascene
Inactive
But when is salvation completed for us as individuals? Will Christians be any different in Heaven than they do on Earth? I think that the most important difference is that in Heaven, we will sin no more: don't you agree?
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
I don't really understand how this verse is proving what you're saying...
My wonderful sister I would recommend a study on what the grace fo God really is. There is no scripture in the entire New Testament that says we can make ourselves acceptable to God. There is also no scripture ( except those you have pulled out of context) to support your theory. Savation is by Christ alone.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
There is not now nor has there ever been one single human being worthy of salvation. There is not now or has there ever been one human being who will ever be worthy sans the grace of God. Salvation can only come form Him and our best works are as scripture declares as filthy rags in His sight.
If God Himself spared no expense to make you blameless in His sight (in Christ) why would you (void of any scriptural admonition) want to try to improve on the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit? This can never be done.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
Salvation is the gift of God. A gift is not earned but is freely bestowed o upon the object of loves affections. He starts the work, He causes us to will and to do, He finishes the work He has begun.
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
andiclare
Inactive
Good discussion, all! 
I'll read the rest of the thread in detail tomorrow, but I wanted to address one quick thing before I turn in for the night:
In fairness, Aelita never said or implied that salvation comes any other way than through Christ, and the scriptures she quoted were in their correct contexts. Through Christ and because of Christ we can be made acceptable to God. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. What does this mean, to have faith in Christ? To acknowledge that he is Lord...? No, He specifically said that wasn't it. To believe in Jesus also means we obey his commandments.
Having faith and believing: in themselves these are things we are doing. Even a passive acceptance of God's grace requires our participation.
There's one, just for starters...
I'll read the rest of the thread in detail tomorrow, but I wanted to address one quick thing before I turn in for the night:
In fairness, Aelita never said or implied that salvation comes any other way than through Christ, and the scriptures she quoted were in their correct contexts. Through Christ and because of Christ we can be made acceptable to God. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. What does this mean, to have faith in Christ? To acknowledge that he is Lord...? No, He specifically said that wasn't it. To believe in Jesus also means we obey his commandments.
Having faith and believing: in themselves these are things we are doing. Even a passive acceptance of God's grace requires our participation.
Philippians 2:12-13
There's one, just for starters...
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
Please do not misunderstand what i am saying. True faith will always produce works. It is simply not the works that make us acceptable but Grace through faith.
As far as context you would have to do a huge an mount of stretching to come up with the doctrine of purgatory without introducing spurious works.
The scripture declares plainly that to be absent from the body is to be with Jesus.
As far as context you would have to do a huge an mount of stretching to come up with the doctrine of purgatory without introducing spurious works.
The scripture declares plainly that to be absent from the body is to be with Jesus.
Christian Commando
Inactive
People, people. what does Scripture say?
"unless a man be born again, he shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven."
"If Grace be of Grace, works is no more works. But if works be of works, then Grace is no more grace, Jesus Christ died on the cross in vain."
Salvation is by the Grace of God, not by works, lest any man should boast.
Purgatory? No, absolutely not. Never has, never will. Purgatory has been taught to be a place where marginally good or sinful people went, in order to live after phys. death, for God to decide if allowed into Heaven or not. A lie of Satan.
This refers to works. No way. This is no different than believing the "Mother Mary" can do a "second works of Grace", to save people to Heaven. Both are lies.
Jesus Christ declared- "I AM the way, the Truth and the Life". "I"- Jesus only, no other, no works, etc.
Do ye not know that ye are saved by Grace thru faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
In the "Richman and Lazarus" story, Jesus showed the richman died and went strait to Hell. When Lazarus died, he was carried into the bosom of Abraham. This, at that time, was "Paradise".
Paradise was the holding place for God's True children who had died before Jesus had been sacrificed. Animal sacrifices did not take away man's sins, but only "covered" them- Gen. and God's "coats of skins" for a covering for Adam and Eve.
But, this was seperate from Heaven. Thus, when Jesus died, He proclaimed to the one thief next to Him- "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." That was the "prison" Jesus went to for 3 days and nights and ministered to them there. Why?
To let them know why He was there and what was to come for them, once He rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven. They would follow after Him to Heaven.
Matt. 12:32 clearly shows that no true Child of God could ever, ever, "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" and lose Salvation. Why? "Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world. The Holy Spirit in us, would never allow us to speak against Him while dwelling within us. Once He comes, He never leaves.
The only way it could be possible, is if a child of God quenches or grieves the Spirit enough to reject His promptings to come back to God, walking away completely and puts christ to an open shame. God will then let them go to Satan and an early grave.
I Cor. 3:15 has nothing to do with Purgatory. It speaks of the treasures we can build up- (store up) in Heaven for service of God here on earth. There are like 7-9 or more crowns we can earn in Heaven for service done here.
Believers, at the "Great White Throne Judgement", will not be judged for eternal life or death, but what treasures they will recieve or will lose in Heaven. God opens two Books in Rev. at the "GWTJ" day. the first, is the "Book of Life". The second will be of "works".
The unsaved will be judged for thier "works" to decide the level of punishment they will deal with forever, where saved Children of God will find out what treasures they will recieve or lose, based on thier works in service for God here.
The I Peter references only relate to Christ going to Paradise, not Purgatory. It was considered as "prison", because until Jesus paid the price for our sins and roseto life and ascended to god, no spirit of a sinful person, even of Old Test times, could go to heaven and be with God until the ultimate price once and for all covered this.
God tells us now, since Christ accomplished this- "to be absent from the body and present with the Lord". The spirit of God's children are cleansed of sin at phys. death and go to Heaven to be with God. Our phys. bodies are not. They lay, still tainted and decaying in the ground.
But, when Jesus comes in the Rapture and calls to us, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those who are alive, shall be caught up with them and we shall be with the Lord forever.
I pray this helps.
God bless!!
"unless a man be born again, he shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven."
"If Grace be of Grace, works is no more works. But if works be of works, then Grace is no more grace, Jesus Christ died on the cross in vain."
Salvation is by the Grace of God, not by works, lest any man should boast.
Purgatory? No, absolutely not. Never has, never will. Purgatory has been taught to be a place where marginally good or sinful people went, in order to live after phys. death, for God to decide if allowed into Heaven or not. A lie of Satan.
This refers to works. No way. This is no different than believing the "Mother Mary" can do a "second works of Grace", to save people to Heaven. Both are lies.
Jesus Christ declared- "I AM the way, the Truth and the Life". "I"- Jesus only, no other, no works, etc.
Do ye not know that ye are saved by Grace thru faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
In the "Richman and Lazarus" story, Jesus showed the richman died and went strait to Hell. When Lazarus died, he was carried into the bosom of Abraham. This, at that time, was "Paradise".
Paradise was the holding place for God's True children who had died before Jesus had been sacrificed. Animal sacrifices did not take away man's sins, but only "covered" them- Gen. and God's "coats of skins" for a covering for Adam and Eve.
But, this was seperate from Heaven. Thus, when Jesus died, He proclaimed to the one thief next to Him- "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." That was the "prison" Jesus went to for 3 days and nights and ministered to them there. Why?
To let them know why He was there and what was to come for them, once He rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven. They would follow after Him to Heaven.
Matt. 12:32 clearly shows that no true Child of God could ever, ever, "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" and lose Salvation. Why? "Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world. The Holy Spirit in us, would never allow us to speak against Him while dwelling within us. Once He comes, He never leaves.
The only way it could be possible, is if a child of God quenches or grieves the Spirit enough to reject His promptings to come back to God, walking away completely and puts christ to an open shame. God will then let them go to Satan and an early grave.
I Cor. 3:15 has nothing to do with Purgatory. It speaks of the treasures we can build up- (store up) in Heaven for service of God here on earth. There are like 7-9 or more crowns we can earn in Heaven for service done here.
Believers, at the "Great White Throne Judgement", will not be judged for eternal life or death, but what treasures they will recieve or will lose in Heaven. God opens two Books in Rev. at the "GWTJ" day. the first, is the "Book of Life". The second will be of "works".
The unsaved will be judged for thier "works" to decide the level of punishment they will deal with forever, where saved Children of God will find out what treasures they will recieve or lose, based on thier works in service for God here.
The I Peter references only relate to Christ going to Paradise, not Purgatory. It was considered as "prison", because until Jesus paid the price for our sins and roseto life and ascended to god, no spirit of a sinful person, even of Old Test times, could go to heaven and be with God until the ultimate price once and for all covered this.
God tells us now, since Christ accomplished this- "to be absent from the body and present with the Lord". The spirit of God's children are cleansed of sin at phys. death and go to Heaven to be with God. Our phys. bodies are not. They lay, still tainted and decaying in the ground.
But, when Jesus comes in the Rapture and calls to us, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those who are alive, shall be caught up with them and we shall be with the Lord forever.
I pray this helps.
God bless!!
I keep trying to say something, but as soon as I do Boanerges says it for me.
DRAT! That man!! [Kidding]
DRAT! That man!! [Kidding]
M
Mark_18
Guest
I too see it as, as soon as you're dead, you're in spirit and unaffected by time.
We can't logically picture that as time goes by on earth because our thoughts and imaginations rely on time, but that doesn't matter.
We can't logically picture that as time goes by on earth because our thoughts and imaginations rely on time, but that doesn't matter.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
I keep trying to say something, but as soon as I do Boanerges says it for me.
DRAT! That man!! [Kidding]
OOPSS that is way I sometimes go by the name b(r)other Larry.
b(r)other - brother or bother depending on how you look at it.
Maybe to you, but not to me. But then again....that doesn't matter. What is in scripture is all that matters. If it isn't in scripture.....then its probably man made. Even if it were "logical" to us, it may not be "logical" to God. Sola Scriptura.
- Status