Yes I run across these guys and gals all the time on a couple of other sites, they drive me nuts too....from my own experience most of the time one cannot reason with them...even when the evidence is right in front of them about its flaws...they will just say it is from Satan or something...the King James is the translation that is the single most cause of so many of the false doctrines being believed in Christianity today such as the eternal burning hell doctrine...or that people are born with an immortal soul....both of which are simply NOT TRUE...
Kjv Only
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As I stated previously I tend to prefer the Kjv, but that said, I am very definitely not Kjv only. With that established I am curious to know on what/which authority you base your views in particular regarding immortality of the soul, and 'the eternal burning hell'? Personally I don't have much time for the 'eternal burning hell' idea, but it needs to be replaced with something else, so over to you.
Its daft to argue about Bible translations and obvious Satan rubs his hands with glee at the fall out of it all.
Enough has been said about translations etc, but its obvious that any translation is not going to be 100% perfect, different people will want different wording depending on what theological theories and agendas they support or believe in.
If people want to study the Bible then the only decent way is to use at least a couple of different versions of Bible, preferbly Study Bibles as they will have a lot of notes and explinations to help you start, along with a copy of Strongs, which refers back to the original Greek and Hebrew words and thier meaning.
WIth modern techonolgoy this task is made easier with plenty of applications for devices and computer. On my computer I use Esword regulary http://www.e-sword.net/ its worth it just to save thumbing through Strongs numbering!
Enough has been said about translations etc, but its obvious that any translation is not going to be 100% perfect, different people will want different wording depending on what theological theories and agendas they support or believe in.
If people want to study the Bible then the only decent way is to use at least a couple of different versions of Bible, preferbly Study Bibles as they will have a lot of notes and explinations to help you start, along with a copy of Strongs, which refers back to the original Greek and Hebrew words and thier meaning.
WIth modern techonolgoy this task is made easier with plenty of applications for devices and computer. On my computer I use Esword regulary http://www.e-sword.net/ its worth it just to save thumbing through Strongs numbering!
Yes, I agree. Humans have translated and paraphrashed the Bible so many times that some people find it very difficult to decide which translation to use. And, for that reason some people decide that it is too difficult to choose a translation, so they simply choose NO translation.
So many translations to choose from makes it even all the more important for each of us to let the Holy Spirit interpret scripture for our lives.
This is exactly what I mean about the premise that it is solely/primarily man's endeavour to translate the bible into English. All these points make sense and would be agreeable as long as your premise is accepted. Just as you would also be compelled to accept my conclusion as long as you accept my premise that God ordered the King James translation. I understand you are not compelled to accept my premise, neither am I prepared to accept yours
Well the eternal burning hell doctrine and the doctrine that man is born with an immortal soul, kinda go hand in hand...the Bible makes it plain that only the saved are given the gift of everlasting life and that comes when they are resurrected...the unsaved are not given everlasting life to spend anywhere, not even in a eternal burning hell...they are are given death in the lake of fire....they are destroyed (cease to exist)...why would anyone think God keeps people alive for billions of years so that they can be tortured by fire and pain..that would mean that the unsaved also have everlasting life, ever how unpleasant it would be...the Bible speaks volumes about how the wicked will be no more, etc.....the eternal burning hell doctrine along with the immortality of the soul doctrine which are both false are the result of the Roman Catholic Church imposing its doctrine and which the Protestants simply adopted ...
Thanks for your reply Alan. I could offer a reason for believing in eternal torment, but my heart wouldn't be in it
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You do raise a good point in that theAnglican protestant church adopted some of the dogma from the roman church.ie they didn't take reformation far enough. I think Zwingli wanted to take things a bit further than Luther, but he lacked the pull to carry his reforms far enough. Luther really differed less from the roman church than did Zwingli.
But getting back to the topic, and your point about the Kjv teaching false doctrine, wouldn't you agree that the false teaching comes from the false understanding of men rather than the translation itself? When I read the Kjv, I don't see Lord BBQing the souls of the damned for all eternity, I just see that judgment is eternal, such that there will be no point in the future after judgment when the damned might find restoration.......they are gone; not even a memory of them left.
.You do raise a good point in that the
But getting back to the topic, and your point about the Kjv teaching false doctrine, wouldn't you agree that the false teaching comes from the false understanding of men rather than the translation itself? When I read the Kjv, I don't see Lord BBQing the souls of the damned for all eternity, I just see that judgment is eternal, such that there will be no point in the future after judgment when the damned might find restoration.......they are gone; not even a memory of them left.
Well I see it as a combination of both...that the KJV is not the best of translations by any means...there are way too many mistranslated words and verses...but a lot does also come from man's false understanding...but this is one reason to even if one uses the KJV he should compare it with other more accurate and better translations such as the Young's Literal Translation, the Complete Jewish Bible, the English Standard Version, the Holman Christian Standard Version, and the New American Standard Version and a few others...even the New King James Version ...yes you are right after the judgement they are gone forever....Thanks for your reply Alan. I could offer a reason for believing in eternal torment, but my heart wouldn't be in it
You do raise a good point in that theAnglicanprotestant church adopted some of the dogma from the roman church.ie they didn't take reformation far enough. I think Zwingli wanted to take things a bit further than Luther, but he lacked the pull to carry his reforms far enough. Luther really differed less from the roman church than did Zwingli.
But getting back to the topic, and your point about the Kjv teaching false doctrine, wouldn't you agree that the false teaching comes from the false understanding of men rather than the translation itself? When I read the Kjv, I don't see Lord BBQing the souls of the damned for all eternity, I just see that judgment is eternal, such that there will be no point in the future after judgment when the damned might find restoration.......they are gone; not even a memory of them left.
I must defer to Calvins statement that it is NOT the translation that is the problem but the indivual who is in error.
You make some opinions and I must say that no matter what translation I use, you are in error to them all my friend.
Your comment was...........
the unsaved are not given everlasting life to spend anywhere, not even in a eternal burning hell...they are are given death in the lake of fire....they are destroyed .
Daniel 12:2
NIV
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
Psalms 138:8.....
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
" If I go up to heaven, You are there;
if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there."
JESUS CHRIST mentioned only two ways to spend eternity in the kingdom of heaven or in outer darkness (Matt. 8:11-12), in life eternal or in everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46); in the kingdom of God or in hell fire (Mark 9:47); being saved or lost (Lk. 19:10); having everlasting life or perishing (Jn. 3:16); condemned or not condemned (Jn. 3:18); having life or death (Jn. 5:24); having the resurrection of the just or of the unjust (Jn.5:29).
THE APOSTLE JOHN mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: having life everlasting or having the wrath of God (Jn. 3:36); having eternal life or not having eternal life (I Jn. 5:11-12); those whose names are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) and those whose names arc in the book of life enter into God's presence in the heavenly Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-3 & 27).Notice, a name is either in or not in the book of life.No other alternative exists!
THE APOSTLE PETER mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: the saved have an incorruptible inheritance in heaven while the unsaved do not (I Pet. 1:3-5) the godly are delivered to a new heaven and earth while the ungodly perish inperdition and judgment (II Pet. 2:9, 3:7-9 & 13).
THE APOSTLE PAUL mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23), believers are saved while unbelievers perish (I Cor. 1:18); the justified inherit God's kingdom but the unrighteous do not (I Cor. 6:9-11); followers of God inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God, but the wrath of God comes on the disobedient (Eph. 5:1-6); believers inherit the kingdom of God, but those who don't know or obey God are punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (II Thess. 1: 5-9).
Now YOU are suggesting that there is a 3rd option and it is one where there is NO ETERNAL life, simply destruction.
Your comment was.........
"yes you are right after the judgement they are gone forever.... "
You are suggesting "ANNILATION" and There is no such thing in the Bible as Annilation of the body & soul.
You are apeaking of Annihilationism and is a belief that apart from salvationthe death of human beings results in their total destruction (annihilation) rather than their everlasting torment. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.
Some annihilationists believe the wicked will be punished for their sins in the Lake of Fire before being annihilated as it appears you are trying to do. This teaching comes from Seventh-day Adventists, and others that hell is a false doctrine of pagan origination and that teaching comes from the Jehovah's Witnesses. It stands in contrast to the traditional and long standing view of eternal torment which is taught and has been understood now for alomost 17oo years.
I have nothing to do with 7th day Adventists (almost a cult) nor Jehovah"s Witness (cult)....but your traditional long standing view of eternal torment has been wrong for the entire 1700 years...it is a pagan Roman Catholic doctrine that has no place in Christianity as it is a lie...just because it is tradition, does not make it correct, and just because Jehovah's Witness and SDAs are wrong on some things does not make them wrong on everything...Jesus says that He gives everlasting life to the saved....nowhere does He say he gives everlasting life to the unsaved....I would suggest a closer and more in depth study of Scripture if you do not believe God...
Errant teachings which are obviously exposed by Scripture need not to be contended; for truth requires the same defense as a lion.
Then you must not have studied your Bible very close.. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16...what do you think perish is...perish is not being tortured in a eternal burning hell, since they are still there and not perished...perish means perish....it does not mean to not perish.Good Grief...there are so many..>> The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8...destruction or corruption depending on what translation one uses means Annihilation...not preservation to be tortured eternally...gosh, there are so many to choose from >> They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 2 Thessalonians 1:9...eternal destruction, means that they are destroyed (annihilated) and are no more cease to exist...it does not mean to not be destroyed but kept alive in a eternal burning torture chamber....that though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever Psalms 92:7...Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 5:24....now when is the last time you saw stubble and dry grass to just keep burning and burning without ever being turned to ash...sure looks like the Bible is full of passages about annihilation...In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. Psalm 37:10....I mean the list goes on and on....
John 3:16....
New International Version (©1984)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
International Standard Version (©2008)
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.
The Greek word apollumi does not suggest annihilation is clear in that this word is employed to describe the miserable condition of the prodigal son, when separated from his loving father. In that state the son was “lost” (Luke 15:24), but he had not ceased to exist.
As Vine pointed out: “the idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (Expository Dictionary, Vol. I, p. 302). Prof. Thayer declared, with extreme clarity, that apollumi suggests “to be delivered up to eternal misery” (Greek-English Lexicon, p. 4).
GAl. 6:8
New International Version (©1984)
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The person who sows through human means will harvest decay from human means, but the person who sows in the Spirit will harvest eternal life from the Spirit.
No friend.........nothing there to suggest Aniliation. The fruit which I reap will be consistent with the seed I have sown. I cannot live my life one way and expect to receive a different kind of reward. I cannot walk this earth the way I please and expect God to be pleased in the end. If I imagine that I can, then I dupe myself and scoff at Jehovah in the process!
Verse 8 completes the thought: "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Notice that Paul describes only two kinds of sowing. Just as the Bible speaks of the prepared and the unprepared, the wise and the foolish, the obedient and the disobedient, so it speaks of the spiritually-minded and the worldly-minded. Those who sow to the flesh will reap everlasting destruction; those who sow to the spirit will reap eternal glory.
2 Thess.1:9..........
New International Version (©1984)
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
New Living Translation (©2007)
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.
English Standard Version (©2001)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
International Standard Version (©2008)
Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power,
Anilation is not here as well!!!
The word Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 for “destruction” (olethros) basically means destruction in the sense of death or ruin. Paul uses the word three other times in the New Testament.
In 1 Corinthians 5:5, Paul wrote, “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction [olethros] of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” In this instance olethros clearly does not mean physical death—that the sinner was to be handed over to Satan at which point he would die. How could Paul then have hoped for his salvation at the time of Christ’s return? Rather, Paul means that he should be handed over to Satan—put back into that realm where Satan still exercises authority, namely the world—so that his fleshly, carnal mind and disposition might be destroyed. This man’s sin, grave as it was, did not permanently move him beyond the reach of God’s forgiveness. One of the purposes of putting him out was to lead him to salvation through repentance.
In his first letter to the Thessalonians Paul warned, “While they are saying, ‘Peace and safety!’ then destruction [olethros] will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape” (5:3). And in 1 Timothy 6:9, Paul states, “But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin [olethros] and destruction.”
Sometimes in the Greek Old Testament (LXX) the word is used to refer possibly to physical death. 1 Kings 13:34 says, “This event became sin to the house of Jeroboam, even to blot it out and destroy it from off the face of the earth” (emphasis added). Ezekiel 14:16 says, “‘though these three men were in its midst, as I live,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘they could not deliver either their sons or their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but the country would be desolate. Or if I should bring a sword on that country and say, “Let the sword pass through the country and cut off man and beast from it,” even though these three men were in its midst, as I live,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘they could not deliver either their sons or their daughters, but they alone would be delivered’” (emphasis added).
The word is also used to refer to the defeat (ruin) of a nation. Jeremiah prophesied of Moab, "The sound of an outcry from Horonaim, 'Devastation and great destruction!’” (48:3, emphasis added). Of Babylon the prophet declared, “For the LORD is going to destroy Babylon, And He will make her loud noise vanish from her. And their waves will roar like many waters; The tumult of their voices sounds forth” (Jer. 51:55, emphasis added). Through Obadiah the Lord warned, "Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster” (1:13, emphasis added).
We can go on and on with each verse you list but the result will be the same. What you think is Anniliation is simply a lack of Biblical learning.
THERE IS NO ANNILIATION OF THE BODY AND SOUL FROM EXISTANCE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.
HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
This topic has been well discussed and nothing further is to be gained. It will be closed with prejudice.
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