Last eight chapters of Ezekiel.

#22
Hi @Seedsower,

Interesting discussion & I have appreciated reading it. I do agree with Major as to the commemorative aspect of the sacrifices. People in the millennium will need to learn of God`s ways & what was needed for them to be restored to God.

`Many nations shall come & say, "Come & let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, & we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, & the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.` (Micah 4: 2)

Marilyn.
 
#23
Hi @Seedsower,

Interesting discussion & I have appreciated reading it. I do agree with Major as to the commemorative aspect of the sacrifices. People in the millennium will need to learn of God`s ways & what was needed for them to be restored to God.

`Many nations shall come & say, "Come & let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, & we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, & the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.` (Micah 4: 2)

Marilyn.
Thanks Marilyn, I have heard this interpretation many times and whilst appreciating it do not find it altogether convincing. For me Christ Himself will be literally present, so what's the need for commemorative sacrifices as we will have five wounds in the actual body of Christ to eternally remind us? Also scripture makes it plain (to me) that the sacrificial system has been fulfilled. If you like, the type and anti-type have been fully revealed. Hebrews makes that plain I think. As for the point that the sacrifices will be Jewish, yes I see that point but in Him there is no Jew or Gentile so how can that be? To interpret literally (for me) raises too many questions. My big problem is that if we interpret symbolically then what does it all mean? My thanks to all who have contributed thus far.

Pete <><
 
#25
Thanks Marilyn, I have heard this interpretation many times and whilst appreciating it do not find it altogether convincing. For me Christ Himself will be literally present, so what's the need for commemorative sacrifices as we will have five wounds in the actual body of Christ to eternally remind us? Also scripture makes it plain (to me) that the sacrificial system has been fulfilled. If you like, the type and anti-type have been fully revealed. Hebrews makes that plain I think. As for the point that the sacrifices will be Jewish, yes I see that point but in Him there is no Jew or Gentile so how can that be? To interpret literally (for me) raises too many questions. My big problem is that if we interpret symbolically then what does it all mean? My thanks to all who have contributed thus far.

Pete <><
Hi Seedsower,

You say that Christ will be literally present. What scriptures do you have to believe that, please?

Marilyn.
 
#26
Hi Seedsower,

You say that Christ will be literally present. What scriptures do you have to believe that, please?

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn,
Here are the scriptures you asked for: Isa. 9:6,7
As you know Isaiah is termed the Messianic prophet and here speaks of the millennium as he does in other places.

Blessings: Pete <><
 
#27
Animal sacrifices were an atonement for sin not a remedy as Hebrews tells us. So, if it is symbolic, then what of?
The sacrifice or more so...the setting free of greed and pride. Sacrifice is to be only of self, as the vessel full with God's light has no room for the material, fleshly wants of man.

One who wholly believes and as such follows and act a wholly towards the direction of GOD has no need for any attachment to any material thing.

 
#28
Hebrews 10:4 ..............
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

A few verses later, in verse 11...........
"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins."

The animal sacrifices have a different purpose than the once-and-for all death of Christ. The significance of the death of Christ is not minimized by the animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple, because such sacrifices are not intended to take away sin.

The animal sacrifices were, and will be, tests of obedience as well as a way of maintaining fellowship with God for the Jew and gentile proselytes living in the Kingdom Age. The death of Christ does not do away with all ritual. The death of Christ has not done away with the Lord’s Supper. That’s a ritual. The death of Christ has not done away with going to church. We are to regularly gather with the people of God. These animal sacrifices are ritual—another kind of ritual—but ritual nevertheless. And there is still a place and function for ritual.

Then IMO, it needs to be remembered that the Millennial Kingdom is about Israel. There is a promised land in which Israel dwells in peace and security. The Millennial Age is not the Church Age. We shouldn’t seek to understand its features in terms of the Church Age. During the Millennium, the Church Age is no more. Even though outward submission to these outward ceremonies and rituals will not be proof of a new heart, such ceremonies will exhibit a spirit of submission to the government of the Millennial King, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sacrifice is not to be often or in vain. As Christ payed one time for our sins and rose up into a new life, wholly with the Father, so too are we to be baptised, and circumcised of the spirit but once, and be born anew and changed being washed clean and having separated ourselves from the wants of the flesh.
 
#29
Hi Marilyn,
Here are the scriptures you asked for: Isa. 9:6,7
As you know Isaiah is termed the Messianic prophet and here speaks of the millennium as he does in other places.

Blessings: Pete <><
Hi Seedsower,

Yes I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ will be upon the throne of David, (Is. 9: 7) however it does not say where He will be reigning from. You would need more scriptures to establish that, I believe.

Marilyn.
 
#30
Hi Seedsower,

Yes I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ will be upon the throne of David, (Is. 9: 7) however it does not say where He will be reigning from. You would need more scriptures to establish that, I believe.

Marilyn.
Hi Marilyn,

The throne of David is in Jerusalem. When Jerusalem was freed in 1948, David Ben-Gurion the founder and first Prime Minister was offered the throne, so was Albert Einstein, both refused. One of them said, I forget which, "leave it to the one whose right it is". That throne stands empty in Jerusalem to this day waiting for the only person who can lawfully claim it. It is the classic Pre-millenniumist position.
 
#31
Hi @Seedsower,

I realise that this has been a `classic pre-position,` however although I am a pre- trib/millenniumist I was not taught that. So I bringing some thoughts to light that you may not have been shown.

I realise that our Lord is the rightful inheritor of the throne of David - born of the house of David, the tribe of Judah & the nation of Israel. However He is also King of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the ages, etc. King of all kings.

For example, the Queen of England is queen over Australia, where I live, but she does not reside in my country town or anywhere in Australia. Her authority is here & throughout our courts. However she resides in England & her seat of authority is there. Thus I am showing you that a king/Queen does not have to be in a particular place to have authority over it.

So do you know other scriptures that clearly show that the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who has been seated,` far above all` ruling physically on the earth & not over it from His seat of power in the 3rd heaven?

Marilyn.
 
#32
Chris, I would be honored to give you my impressions and verses that I have derived my opinions from.

Hebrews 10:4 says that the blood of animals only "covered" over the sins of men until The Lamb of God would give His blood as the complete atonement which cleanses us of sin. I am sure we all know and understand that fact. Neither keeping the Law or giving animal sacrifices saved anyone. It was all by faith. The animal blood was a type of what Jesus would ecentually do.

John 1:29........
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Zech 14:16-18..........
“And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

Zech 14:v.21 ...........
“Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

Isa 66:23 .............
"And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.

Isa. 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Sabbath, it also teaches we will keep the New Moon festival! This is on earth in the Millennium period- not in heaven."

If the Sabbath and feast days and the sacrifices are done away with in Christ how do we reconcile these two seemingly contradictory positions? How can there be a return to the sacrificial system without taking away from the meritorious sacrifice of Christ?

Millennial Israel will have at its center the Temple. Sacrifices according to Ezek. 40:38-39, will continually be done during the Kingdom Age as seen in Ezekiel 45:13 – 46:15. The key IMO is the fact that the millennial offerings are distinctly Jewish nature, of Jewish history and will be administered by Jews, their commemorative purpose will be embraced by Gentiles who will join in celebration of the millennial King who will be on earth.

IMO this is what is taught to us in Zechariah 8 v.23..........
'In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him who is a Jew, saying, We will go with you for we have heard that God is with you'.

Now........ it should not be mistaken for a reinstitution of Mosaic law system, since Moses sacrificial system did not take away sin but Jesus' last sacrifice did.

The problem is easily solved if we view them as being COMMEMORATIVE rather than EFFICACIOUS.

The sacrifices will be a memorial, just as communion is practiced today looking back. They will not be propitiation, or efficacious (they will have no power to redeem) but are a reminder of what took place. The reason this will be instituted is because there will be many unbelievers born in the Millennial period, they will be sinners that will need to understand the sacrifice Christ did. Since his sacrifice is the final one, that cannot be repeated the types he fulfilled will be illustrative of his accomplishment. Just as the church is commanded to continue the Lord's Supper until he comes.
Hi @Major,

I acknowledge each evidential Scripture that you have given, and praise God for them. I also appreciate that the sacrifices will be made in acknowledgement of the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ to which they look 'back'; and that it is Israel as a nation which is in view.

The points you raised regarding the keeping of what is termed, 'the Lord's Supper', and of 'the Sabbath day', I will not comment on here.

Thank you again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
#33
Hello @Seedsower [email protected] C,

Your continued consideration of the reign of Christ during the millennium, and where the Messiah will be during that reign is interesting. Looking at the vision of Ezekiel, the verses below indicate that the Messiah will reign from Jerusalem.


'And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east:
and His voice was like a noise of many waters:
and the earth shined with His glory.'

(Eze.43:2)

'And the glory of the LORD came into the house
by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court;
and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.'
And I heard Him speaking unto me out of the house;
and the man stood by me.
And He said unto me,
"Son of man, the place of My throne,
and the place of the soles of My feet,

where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, ... "'( 'for ever' being 'unto the ages')
(Ezek. 43:4-7a)

'Then brought He me the way of the north gate before the house:
and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD:
and I fell upon my face.'

(Eze.44:4)

I, like Seedsower, need to hear the evidence that you can provide, Marilyn, as to where the Lord will reign from during this period. Would you be kind enough to furnish us with verses that we can consider, in order to come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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#34
Hi @Seedsower,

I realise that this has been a `classic pre-position,` however although I am a pre- trib/millenniumist I was not taught that. So I bringing some thoughts to light that you may not have been shown.

I realise that our Lord is the rightful inheritor of the throne of David - born of the house of David, the tribe of Judah & the nation of Israel. However He is also King of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the ages, etc. King of all kings.

For example, the Queen of England is queen over Australia, where I live, but she does not reside in my country town or anywhere in Australia. Her authority is here & throughout our courts. However she resides in England & her seat of authority is there. Thus I am showing you that a king/Queen does not have to be in a particular place to have authority over it.

So do you know other scriptures that clearly show that the Lord Jesus Christ, the one who has been seated,` far above all` ruling physically on the earth & not over it from His seat of power in the 3rd heaven?

Marilyn.
The interpretation is literal. Where is the literal throne of David but in Jerusalem. There is not another mentioned in scripture. As for additional scriptur: Zechariah. 14: 4-9. If the whole chapter is read I think the context becomes plain. If Jesus reigns from heaven, the position becomes closer to Amillenniumism.
 
#35
Hi @Major,

I acknowledge each evidential Scripture that you have given, and praise God for them. I also appreciate that the sacrifices will be made in acknowledgement of the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ to which they look 'back'; and that it is Israel as a nation which is in view.

The points you raised regarding the keeping of what is termed, 'the Lord's Supper', and of 'the Sabbath day', I will not comment on here.

Thank you again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
No problem Chris. Be well.
 
#36
The interpretation is literal. Where is the literal throne of David but in Jerusalem. There is not another mentioned in scripture. As for additional scriptur: Zechariah. 14: 4-9. If the whole chapter is read I think the context becomes plain. If Jesus reigns from heaven, the position becomes closer to Amillenniumism.
Hi @Seedsower,

I can assure you that I do not believe in Amilleniumism. This false teaching says that there is no millennium & that the present dispensation of the Kingdom of God will be followed immediately by the Kingdom of God in its consummate & eternal form.


I certainly believe there is a millennium where Christ rules through Israel & the nations go up to Jerusalem to learn of God & His ways.

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, & shall be exalted above the hills; & peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come & say, “Come & let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, & we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion the law shall go forth, & the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.` (Micah 4: 1 & 2)


And I certainly believe that the Lord will come down with His angelic hosts & destroy Israel`s enemies. His feet will touch the Mount of Olives which we are told will split in half & fresh water will flow, east & west. He will then go over the valley of Jehoshaphat to Jerusalem where He will meet with those in Judah, the house of David & the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They will recognize Him, by the Holy Spirit & mourn for Him. (Zech. 14: 1 – 9, & 12: 7 – 11)

The Lord then gathers the nations before Him & judges them. Those who looked after the Jews when they were persecuted will be able to go into the millennial reign of Israel. (Joel 3: 1 & 2, Matt. 25: 31 – 46)

Then the Lord will set up His rulership through Israel. He anoints a man called David to be the regent king & priests to also rule in Jerusalem.

`Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; & it is the time of Jacob`s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it…..they shall serve the Lord their God, & David their king, whom I will raise up for them.` (Jer. 30: 7 – 9)

“Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all the nation,….& I will take some of them for priests & Levites,” says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 20 & 21)

Then I believe the Lord will return to the highest heaven where He will rule overall.

`Oh clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the Lord most High is awesome; he is a great King over all the earth. He will subdue the peoples under us, & the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us, the excellence of Jacob whom He loves.

God has gone UP with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! For God is the King of all the earth; sing praises with understanding.

God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. The princes of the people have gathered together, the people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God: He is greatly exalted.` (Ps. 47)


Marilyn.
 
Amens/Likes: Complete
#37
Hello @Seedsower [email protected] C,

Your continued consideration of the reign of Christ during the millennium, and where the Messiah will be during that reign is interesting. Looking at the vision of Ezekiel, the verses below indicate that the Messiah will reign from Jerusalem.


'And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east:
and His voice was like a noise of many waters:
and the earth shined with His glory.'

(Eze.43:2)

'And the glory of the LORD came into the house
by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court;
and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.'
And I heard Him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
And He said unto me,

"Son of man, the place of My throne,
and the place of the soles of My feet,

where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, ... "'( 'for ever' being 'unto the ages')
(Ezek. 43:4-7a)

'Then brought He me the way of the north gate before the house:
and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD:
and I fell upon my face.'

(Eze.44:4)

I, like Seedsower, need to hear the evidence that you can provide, Marilyn, as to where the Lord will reign from during this period. Would you be kind enough to furnish us with verses that we can consider, in order to come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi @Complete,

It would be my pleasure to share with you why I believe the Lord will reign from on high.


Now we know from scripture that God`s throne is in the highest heaven.

`Indeed heaven & the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God…` (Deut. 10: 14)


And when Christ rose from the dead & ascended into the highest heaven He was given the place at the right hand of the Father on His very throne.

`God…seated Him (Christ) at His right hand in the heavenly places far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet…` (Eph. 1: 20 – 22)


That position of authority & power is far above all in this age & the one to come, plus all things are under His feet. The Holy Spirit gave the prophet Isaiah a revelation of this –

`Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, & the earth is my footstool.” (Isa. 66: 1)

The prophet Ezekiel (as you pointed out) also spoke of the Lord`s feet in regards to His authority & rule.

"Son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, ... "'(Ezek 43:4-7)


This is part of the `all things under His feet,` as God said. The other areas that are under the Lord`s `feet,` His authority, are, the New Jerusalem & the third heaven. Each of these realms under the Lordship of Christ, will have specific people in rulership there. Each realm had the `throne,` the authority of the Lord there.

Now the Lord, God, (as we know) is omnipresent, & then in His glorified body He can go to each of those realms. But the seat of His power is in the Godhead & that we know is over all.

`Heaven is my throne…` the seat of His power, - the Godhead, `& the earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

Marilyn.
 
Amens/Likes: Complete
#40
Thank you @Marilyn C,

Your reply is full and clear, and I appreciate it very much.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Thanks Marilyn.

What you appear to have done to arrive at your conclusion is to put together verses from old & New Testaments without regard to the context. This breaks the rules of hermeneutics and leads to error. Look at the verses you cite and ask yourself, when was this written, to whom, why was it written and in what circumstances. These are not my rules but Miles Coverdale's. However, I do find them invaluable for determining context. Thanks for your reply and contribution to the thread.