Law Vs Grace!!!

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

That's true, but you can't know Christ and not obey God's Law.
Law and grace can not be seperated. Law and grace are two sides of the same coin.
I know this is a bit old, but I would still like to respond if you don't mind. I think that this is an important issue that we face today "are we still to follow the law"? Well I think the answer is yes and know. The more I study the Bible the more I realize that there is a place for both under the new testament.

Paul wrote on the subject in Romans 6 - 8 he starts off talking about the law late in chapter six saying "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (verse 14) Put simply here says that if you're saved then you really don't have to stress over keeping the law perfectly because God remembers that we are but dust. In the OT the spirit of God could come and go as He chose we see that a lot in OT books, but now Christ has come and Paul is simply saying the spirit will not leave you anymore, when you're saved that's it.

Paul then continues by saying "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." (verse 15) Paul is just saying look just because you are not under this grace doesn't mean you can just sin and do whatever you like ((as some people want to believe)). He says later on 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. "You served sin and you didn't know what right was that is why you had the law" 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. "If you're saved you don't have to worry about how good you didn't do" 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. "Now you're free from sin and you are servants to God and you can produce good fruit and be a good tree. Plus you have everlasting life if you mess up you still go to heaven."
Now in Romans 7 the word law appears in almost every single verse and Paul talks about the law and how that with the law he was still sinning and that the law was not going to save him (only faith in Jesus Christ can do that), but interestingly enough he still talks about the law later on in a more positive in verse 22 he wrote For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: This I think is where Paul is saying "Look I'm saved I don't have to follow the law, but because I'm saved I want to follow the law" (remember however they're parts of the law that the NT clearly says no longer stands such as sacrifices Matthew 9:13,Romans 12:1, Ephesians 5:2, and others) Basically I think that we are to still follow the parts of the law unless Christ (or others from the NT) clearly says do not follow.

James also wrote a good bit about the law and about works part of the law was these works you worked because of the law and of course James 2:20 says "But wilt though know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" and James 2:26 says "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." So what does James mean when he says this?

Well first read all the verses in between he ask a couple of question to poke and prod at people to basically say "look so and so (from the OT) did this, but that still didn't justify him in Gods eyes." James is saying there is a balance yes the works are past, but you work because you have the faith, not that you work for the faith.

I think that to some extent we are still to follow the OT the parts of the OT that the NT doesn't reject. All we who are now saved are still called to be "Gods peculiar people" and we need to act as so, I mean just read some of the OT laws that think of what would happen if we followed them. Some of the laws were if you agree to look after a neighbors ox and it dies you repay it, and if you agree to look after a neighbors ox and kill it on purpose you repay 10x, follow that law and you could end the whole insurance scam.

No one from the NT ever complete rejects the laws because Christ didn't come to destroy the law, but to complete it.
that makes me think to ask a question I have not given much thought to yet
as I could still need to go through the book of Romans a few more times

does faith come first ? or grace ?
Faith first.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
Rom 10:13-14

Before we are saved through grace (Ephe 2:5), we must believe first. And that's having faith first.
Thank you John Jervis for answering that most important question

Jesus the Christ is our tree of eternal life

the reason for him going to the cross was most crucial

it is what Jesus did on the cross that sets us free from the law

God made a perfect plan for fallen man ,in that plan he intended that mercy would have victory over Judgment

through and by the grace of God and the cross of Christ

we all can have the hope and faith of victory

victory that conquers the sin nature

the sin nature is conquered in fallen man only by and through what Jesus did on the cross

God in his awesome GRACE empowered a man named Aurthur Blessit to carry the message of the cross to every country around the world

his story is quite AMAZING!!!

I believe it is time for all Christians to understand that there is victory in Jesus and the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross

is all effective and powerful !
Ive pondered the question

what is the ultimate Law of God ?

How many countless ways did Jesus fulfill it when he arose after the crucifixion ?

by the law Jesus was put to death because he claimed to be the son of God

he arose from the tomb because.... HE WAS THE SON OF GOD

what was fulfilled that the law missed seeing in it's Judgment order ?

God is TRULY a GOD OF ORDER and in control

it was the law of man that failed to recognize what the law of God ordered

so what do you say the ultimate law of God is ?

what was fulfilled by it ?

this is a important question asked

I believe it is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. If you do this than everything else falls into place because of your love you want to please him and do his will.
I wasn't going to enter in to this thread but when I saw this statement I had to respond . It is simple and says it all . If we love God we will keep His commandments .... no question about it cause the Holy Spirit will direct our path and guide and with His grace which abounds over the law . Why do we think just because it is the OT it is not relevant in our day . If we believe the Bible we cannot separate the OT and the NT .... We believe the whole Bible .

Like are you going to say ..... I can kill because it is the old law and was abolished , or I can steal cause that is the old law , or I can lie .... I don't hink so and that is the point so like Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to abolish it . and that's grace.
I believe it is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. If you do this than everything else falls into place because of your love you want to please him and do his will.
Right. Because that is the FIRST commandment and we must do what is first before we can do anything else.

Mrk 12:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Dusty said:
Like are you going to say ..... I can kill because it is the old law and was abolished , or I can steal cause that is the old law , or I can lie .... I don't hink so and that is the point so like Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to abolish it . and that's grace.
And its because of His grace we can keep these commandments through His LOVE, which will not work any ill toward anyone.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And its because of His grace we can keep these commandments through His LOVE, which will not work any ill toward anyone
Exactly . But I have heard people so often say but that's OT just like tithing ( and please I don't want to open a can of worms here ) but everything was written and inspired by God and if we beleive the Bible then we need to believe it's entire context . from cover to cover .
The spirit of God doesn't demand much of us, but he does demand that we have FAITH in the cross of Christ ( John 16:13-14)
Listen to what Paul said ... " For the law ( this is the law by which the spirit works BTw)
of the spirit ( Holy Spirit) of life

( the Holy Spirit garantees all the life that comes from Christ as a result of the cross ) IN CHRIST JESUS ...... what Jesus did at the cross
has made me FREE from the law of sin and death ( ROMANS 8:2 )


Staff member
Good stuff, good reminder. Jesus' fulfillment also encourages us to apply the application of repentance daily. We all battle with shunning obedience. Some of us don't want to let go of our personal sins. Jesus' fulfillment allows us to lessen the burden of sin in our lives.

I hate the sins in my life and when I can share this with our Father, repenting from my heart, what a relief. It took me years to understand the grace of being saved. Now I receive God's tugging of conviction and spiritual self consciousness when I stray. Praise Him for that.

Your brother in Christ Jesus.
Loved your post, Bob!!

You speak about hating the sins in your life - way to go!!! - and even used the word "repent"!! Not a very popular one today, when people are mostly invited to come to Jesus because God loves them, rather than recognising that over and over Acts calls people to REPENT, with God's love not mentioned in even one case, i.e., to repent of all of our sin committed against Almighty God!!!

In the first ever Christian sermon, when Peter was asked by those in considerable mind and heart distress, "What should be do?" he commenced his reply with the word "Repent"!!

Jesus also on repentance: "Repent or you will all likewise perish!" Luke 13:3b and repeated in 5b - definitely a word for today's 'easy' generation!!

Bless you greatly in your walk, brother!

- BM
LAW V.S Grace.................

GodSpeaks, Pastor Gary, adonaicole, and of course Dusty. Have it as I understood it. (Not that I can't use more understanding)

All the Law hang on those two commandments. Love God, Love neighbor.

Then we have 1 John 3:23 Have faith in the name of Jesus.

His name is above all names, and it was faith in his name Peter pulled that crippled man up at Gate Beautiful. Something to think about.

The Love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Ghost. So there is supernatural Help to keep these commandments. Without being born again, it would be impossible to do. Those that know God, love their brother and Sister in Christ.

Commandments like not eating pork, or shellfish, or keeping a special day for God (Sabbath) do not fall under those love commands, unless you just feel it's wrong to be mean to pigs. People are the main issue here. Committing adultery with your neighbors wife is not walking in love, and breaking the Law.

Rom 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Now some take this scripture and say we are no longer under the Law. That is not what the scripture said.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul was talking about the time between Adam and Moses. Moses was given the Law, but because of Adams transgression, death still had dominance.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

In Christ Jesus, We receive the abundance of Grace and the gift of Righteousness. The Law, still judges the rest of the World.

We are also now under a new Law, while not transgressing the Old Law which is summed up. Love God, love neighbor and have faith in the name of Jesus. All the Law hang on these first two.

New Law?
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

It is written that the Just shall live by faith.......

The Law is still in effect today, but as a believer in Christ Jesus, we are under the Law of grace, and Faith. (John 1:17) (Rom 4:16) (Rom 5:20) (Rom 6:14-15)

Does this mean we can't break the Law??? NO........... even more so, our standards must be higher, than what was given to Moses. They were not born again, and did not have the Spirit of truth on them and in them. The Love of God, and new Nature was not part of their make up. We have so many more tools to work with.

Royal Law of Love:

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James gives us some examples of what would be considered breaking the Law. Playing favorites (Respecter of Persons) would be considered breaking the Royal Law of Love, and becoming a transgressor Of the Law.

Breaking the Law brings punishment or death. All sin leads to death. This is not just spiritual death. NO, things will start to fall apart for you long before the death shows up. Your finances, mental health, physical health, children, marriage, will all be effected. The good things in your life, will start to die, and become less.

The Law was given to Moses, and a list of things that come with breaking the Law is also listed in Deut chapter 28. These things are the effect of sin, or breaking the Royal Law.

The Curse of the Law or as James said, Transgression of the Royal Law which all the Law and prophets hang.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

You can read the long list yourself. but here are some of them that are listed.

Blindness, poverty, Pestilence, Spouse sleeping with another, Crops won't grow, Enemies or people rise against you, Hemorrhoids, itching, Skin conditions, Mortgage payments not made (someone else taking your house), Children taken, (Missing), sore joints, Mold, bug infestation, Every form of sickness known to man and not known....................................................................

All these things were meant to destroy you completely, as it is written all sin leads to DEATH. None of it was meant to teach us anything, this is part of the curse of the Law. It was punishment for breaking God's Word and not hearkening unto his voice. Sickness is punishment!!!!!

Isa 1:19
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The Good news!!!!!!!

Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy].(2)
Isa 53:5
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.

Jesus took the Punishment that we deserved!!!!!!! This is why "By his stripes we are healed" is not just some spiritual thing. Why? because sickness was under the Curse of breaking the Law. Also, the Holy Ghost did not interpret this scripture as just some (Spiritual Healing) The Holy Ghost should know.

Mat 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

More Good news!!!!

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Dusty mentioned Tithing.................What Law did Jesus mention when talking about that?

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Good enough for me. My Lord has spoken................ God gets the tenth, as he is the one that supplies my needs.

Be Blessed.

Saying it's the will of God for you to be sick, is like saying it must be The will of God that you commit sins
Keith Moore


Staff member
Just qouting two areas of the scripture:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

See: Matthew 22:36-40 - PassageLookup - New International Version -

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

See: Colossians 2 - PassageLookup - New International Version -

I believe that the laws that were meant to save us cannot fulfill it because we have so corrupted and twisted and took advantage of it after we received it from God. During Jesus' ministry, our savior was attacked by the same religious leaders who were looked upon as keeping the laws of God which they were probably doing but only to show others. God wants us to change from the inside out not from outside in. This was something that we totally missed on receiving the laws. Jesus says the greatest commandment is to Love God and the second one is to love others. They bring about a change in the inside and reflects in our actions as well.

Regarding salvation:
It is by grace of God only that we can be saved. God gave us a new beginning and we don't need to look back. As the scripture says it, He took our place and He fulfilled the laws and now we live by grace.

Laws or any traditions are no longer important to us. It is our relationship with God and how we live as a Christian that matters.


Staff member
Jesus Christ has fulfilled the laws. We don't need to redo it.

Just to add to what I was saying before:

If we are still trying to be perfect with God by obeying the laws given to Moses then the very purpose of Christ dying for our sins past, present and future has become totally useless. Jesus died so we are free from ALL rules and bondages.

So there are two option for us:

1. Either we try and fulfill the laws (in which case we no longer believe in Christ's death and resurrection for us and according to Paul no one is justified before God by the law. See Galatians 3:11)
2. or receive Jesus who has already fullfilled it for us. (Galatians 3:13 explains how Jesus took OUR place and fulfilled the laws)

We as Christians no longer work to fulfill the laws but no we work out of our love and faith in Jesus and our love to everyone around us. The Holy Spirit now guides us to what how we need to live our lives.
Hi brother Jeff!

Those were two wonderful posts!! Both clarifying and timely in this thread.

Timely by setting out so clearly the vast difference between the Law in the Old Testament (Covenant) and Jesus fulfilling it in the New Testament (Covenant) - which so many people just don't get. We now live under the New Covenant in His precious blood. Your Scriptures were great too! Today we do things because we want to - because we Love Him!! To HAVE to do this and do that from the Old Covenant is GONE!

Paul spells it out in Galatians Ch 5. V. 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free. V. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised [i.e., tries to keep a part of the law] that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. V. 4 You have become separated (severed) from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Such a person has made Jesus' sacrifice of no effect!! (very serious!)

Of course the whole Bible is the Word of God, but the Old Covenant is NOT the same as the New Covenant that we now ALL live under. So, wonderfully, we don't need to follow a whole great pile of things OT people had to. As an example, read the OT and see how they HAD to follow an incredibly complex set of rules as to tithing (tithing is never taught in the NT). If you tithe according to the OT you place yourself under the law with consequences as in v. 3.

Instead, under NT grace, we have absolute freewill giving - showing God our love! The tithe has gone with the rest. Why do churches teaching tithing not understand we're not under law. I've even heard them state we're robbing God if we don't tithe! (from Malachi 3) How shocking: that's LAW teaching!!!)

Jeff, you SEPARATED the Old from the New and Law from Grace. Wow!! I truly hope that many who've not understood this separation will now both SEE and begin to LIVE it.

Bless you, brother!

- BM

EDIT: In Matthew 23:23 which I just noticed in a post above, Jesus was making a point to OT Scribes and Pharisees, who WERE still under the law. Jesus had not yet died, the Church had not yet started, the NT not yet written!

He was NOT telling us - New Covenant people - to tithe, OR to keep the Law! (If He was, then both Galatians and Colossians are WRONG!!)

It is SO important for me and us all to take note of time and context in His Holy Word - or we so easily tell others things that are wrong!!
Under the Law means Tithe??

He was NOT telling us - New Covenant people - to tithe, OR to keep the Law! (If He was, then both Galatians and Colossians are WRONG!!)
Jesus never told us NOT to tithe, and Galatians and Colossians never told us to stop Tithing. We are mixing up keeping the law with tithing. Not one scripture tells us not to tithe.

A discussion like this (As it's been debated over and over enough already) can take many pages of forums with nobody changing their mind. I think we can get in Error if we attempt to force people to Tithe or Not tithe based on fear. For example......... your quote.

If you tithe according to the OT you place yourself under the law with consequences as in v. 3.
You say tithing brings Consequences!!!

What is OT tithing? To keep it simple, we give a 10% of what we make money wise. So, every source of income that comes in, we give the tenth to God. No big deal, we pay taxes also.

Jesus made two references to Tithing. Now we can say he had yet to establish the New Covenant and that hard set in stone 10% was only before he went to the Cross. You would think that if that Hard 10% set in stone tithing was important, then it would have been mentioned afterward. The truth is, it wasn't.

What we do see is something we don't see in (MOST) of those that are against tithing. I said most, not all. We see everyone sell all their goods and bring EVERYTHING to the church. Now, how many have followed that example?

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

We are told to bring something to give, and not out of Necessity which would be just giving out of fear of breaking the Law, or told if you don't give, God won't bless you. This could extend way past what 10% would be for you. We don't just want to hold on to that (Tithing Law) and short God, if more is laid on our heart to give.

Why I Tithe:

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

God's things must be first. If you get a paycheck and figure bills or your needs before God, then God can't be first and you don't qualify for the other things being added to you. We are Born again, and all things become new, putting God first in everything. Giving the Tenth for me is a way to say. "God your first." I don't stop there, we also set money aside in case it's needed for the Kingdom latter.

IN that famous Malachi Scripture, God was just not talking to the priest.

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

My stance is that every scripture is for reproof and Doctrine, not just some of them, or the ones I decide should (Pass Away) God never Changes. I can see by the new Commandants that cover the whole law would now make it possible to eat pork, but it's still not right to kill, steal, or commit adultery. To do so would bring you under the curse of the Law. Why, those things break that love command. Tithing does not break the Love command, and if everyone at least did that, churches would be enabled to do so much more than they can now. It takes Money to preach this Gospel.

I also want to qualify for being blessed with no room to receive it, and I don't want my things to wear out and break before their time. He said he would rebuke the devourer for our sake.

Mal 3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

God has not changed, and I want to qualify for those things he said I can have. I tithe because it's a sure way of putting God first. God supply's all my needs, not the Job, the Job is just seed for giving, and I am tremendously blessed.

So, tithe if you want or don't want. Just make sure you do it with a cheerful heart and are convinced by scripture that you should.

2Co 9:8
And God is able to make all grace (every favor and [3] earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need [4] be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation].

Be blessed.