Life After People
- Thread starter Phoneman777
- Start date
Correct!
You may not be the best looking guy in the crowd, but you are certainly the most well spoken.
I myself am nothing more than an ole country boy but I can recognize those who know what they are talking about and we are in agreement.
He is following the teachings of Ellen G. White and the SDA church.
She/they have rejected the understood and verified historical account of Antiochus as the "little horn" in Daniel 8:9-14.
Antiochus came up from the FOUR generals of Alexander according to Daniel.
The coming Antichrist of Daniel 7 will come up out of the Revived Roman Empire of the last days.
Daniel 8 is Antiochus and chapter 7 is the yet future A/C.
7:24 says...."And the TEN horns out of this kingdom are ten kings THAT SHALL ARISE"..............
b: and another shall rise after them (The 10 horns) and HE (the A/C) shall be diverse from the first and he shall subdue three kings.
"ANOTHER" is the 11th horn which is also called the "little horn". This will be the son of perdition or the Beast or the Anti-Christ.
Antiochus came up out of FOUR not TEN.
Yes - I can/could see that. His post shows that Antiochus could not be the antiChrist and on that (I think?) everyone agrees! Where we don't all agree is that Antiochus IS the horn spoken of in Daniel 8 - which is a different argument. As you, Major point out - Antiochus comes out of the 4 Greek rulers, specifically Selucid - and that the he-goat is Greek. The ram is Medo (little horn)-Persian (big horn). Antiochus is considered by many to be the antiChrist of the OT and before Christ - a foreshadow of the AC in end times. The temple Antiochus blasphemed was cleansed by Christ attending the temple for the festival of lights (John 10:22). The date of the cleansing is well-established as Dec. 25th 165 BC. Counting back 2300 days brings you specifically to Antiochus at 171 BC.
Edit* I mean to say Christ acknowledges the cleansing already having taken place as the festival of lights commemorates the rededication after the cleansing.
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When Daniel asks for understanding, Gabriel tells that the he-goat is Greek! Daniel predicts both Antiochus and the AC of end days. Antiochus and the AC's power is led by Satan. Antiochus died of internal intestinal problems - not by the hand of man - the AC dies by Christ's hand. (not by man either). Daniel predicts Antiochus, 350 yrs. before it happens. He predicts the AC at end times. The error is in trying to make the horn of Chapt 7 match the horn of Chapt 8. The 4th beast cannot be described - the he-goat is described.
Yes, the answer to whether it's horns or winds is given at the bottom, if you take the time to read my post. Grammatical, syntactical, and contextual evidence points to the four winds, NOT the four generals who divided Greece.
Also, since you acknowledge that Epimanes arose as the eighth king of the Seleucid region (eighth of about 25+), then you yourself have disqualified Epimanes as a candidate for the "little horn", seeing that the "little horn" is said to arise at the "latter time" of the reign of the four horn kings.
Fair enough, but it just doesn't seem logical for God to issue the most fearful warning in all the Bible - to not accept the Mark of the Beast - and yet not make it possible for us to identify the Beast and his Mark so as to avoid accepting it. Furthermore, it just doesn't seem logical for such a warning to be issued to the church if it is to be taken away before the warning can even be heeded.
The verse says "70 weeks are "determined" (Hebrew: "Chathak" which means "cut off" or "amputate"), and you are confusing that with "in the midst of the week Messiah is cut off" which comes later. The 70 weeks are "amputated" from the larger prophecy of 2300 days. It is inconsistent for you to claim that the 70 weeks are symbolic for 490 years while at the same time claiming that the 2300 days are just days, especially since the one is "cut off" from the other. "Consistency, thou art a jewel".
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Major, your failure to address my Biblical points as to why Epimanes cannot be the "little horn" of Daniel 8 exposes you for what you are: a hopelessly devoted Jesuit Futurist who stubbornly holds fast to an indefensible doctrine, and who for some reason seems to believe that this one doctrine should be relied upon while the rest of those found in what Luther described as the "Roman dunghill of decretals" should be summarily dismissed.
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Your points were addressed. The failure is that you can not see beyond the EGW errors of interpretation.
But somehow it is not they way when you changed DAYS to YEARS.
People always seemed to know half of history, and to get it confused with the other half.
- Jane Haddam
Amen.....Praise the Lord!
The problem is that the people who adhere to EGW teaching, the SDA denomination consciously choose to separate the Medo-Persian Empire.
They treat it as TWO separate Empires when in fact it was ONE.
The SDA want to blame the RCC for all the errors and wrongs of the world and this is one of the ways to get that done by making the O.T.
A/C come out of Rome and not Greece where the Scriptures clearly say that he (Antiocous) came out of.
As I understand it, the Medo Empire was contemporary with Babylon when Babylon was at it's height of power and never held a world position to rank with Babylon until it joined with Persia. Medo-Persia was the bear that crushed Babylon. The bear is described as unbalanced with 3 ribs in it's mouth ( Babylon, Eygpt, & Lydia). Again - there are 2 arms on the torso (Medo & Persia) and 2 legs (Byzantine (Constantinople)and European (Rome) for the 4th beast. Scripture tells us that the Ram was Medo-Persia and the he-goat was Greek
http://www.gotquestions.org/Medo-Persian-empire.html
Question: "What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?"
Answer:The Medo-Persians, led byKing Cyrus II, invaded Babylonia from the east in June of 539 B.C. and captured its capital, Babylon, in July of the same year. In biblical chronology, this occurred near the end of theBabylonian exile. Within a short time,Danielbecame a trusted advisor to the new Medo-Persian Empire. This kingdom of the Medes and the Persians was later ruled by Artaxerxes II, or Ahasuerus, who marriedEsther. Today, Persia is essentially synonymous with modern Iran, and this was not so different in ancient times. However, Persia as an ancientkingdom, especially when referenced along with Media, encompassed Egypt in the west to parts of India in the east, and included Asia Minor from the eastern border of Greece to Tajikistan.
The Medo-Persian Empire Foretold
Isaiah,Jeremiahand Daniel all prophesied that the Medes and the Persians would overtake the Babylonian Empire. Isaiah quoted God as saying, “See, I will stir up against them the Medes. . . . Their bows will strike down the young men” (Isaiah 13:17-18). Another prophecy said that the Medes would expand beyond Babylonia and affect all nations (Jeremiah 51:28). Jeremiah also provides the reason for the Medo-Persian ascendancy: “to destroy Babylon” and gain “vengeance for [God’s] temple” (Jeremiah 51:11). Daniel interpreted adreamwhich also foretold the fall of Babylon.
The Writing on the Wall
Daniel also warned of Babylon’s demise on the eve of its fall, as recorded inDaniel 5. King Belshazzar, called “king” because he was left in charge of political affairs while his father was away at war, was using the gold and silver utensils from thetempleas drinking vessels in a night of debauchery. “Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall” (Daniel 5:5). The frightened king summoned Daniel to the banquet hall to interpret the writing. Daniel’s inspired interpretation was dire: God had pronounced judgment on Babylon, and the kingdom would be divided. By morning, “Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom” (Daniel 5:30-31).
End of the Exile
Before the Babylonian exile even began, God told Jeremiah that Judah would “become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (Jeremiah 25:11). Ezra and others recorded that “in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia [539 B.C.], in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus” (Ezra 1:1), and Cyrus allowed all the Jews to return to Judah. Not only did Cyrus release the Jews, but he also returned the stolen temple articles and paid for the Jews’ rebuilding efforts from the royal treasury (Ezra 6:4-5). This was a monumental time in Israel’s history, as Jerusalem and the temple were rebuilt and the Law was reinstituted.
Daniel
Daniel was prominent in the Medo-Persian Empire and a trusted advisor to King Darius. However, after being placed as head of the satraps (governors, of sorts), Daniel was hated by some of them for his quick ascent. They laid a legal trap for Daniel that should have gotten him killed, for he was thrown into the infamouslions’ den. He survived, however, by God’s intervention, and he continued to prophesy, rule, and provide counsel in that foreign land (Daniel 6:28).
Mordecai and Esther
Another key event in the history of Israel also occurred in Persia. Thebook of Estherdescribes the origin of theFeast of Purimand how the Jews were spared mass destruction. When Cyrus released the Jews to their homeland, not all of them elected to return to Judah (Esther 3:8). King Artaxerxes (or “Ahasuerus,” as he is called in Esther) reigned from 404-359 B.C. and likely had little background on his government’s history with the Jews. So, when his top advisor, Haman, accused the Jews of being routinely disobedient to the king’s laws, Artaxerxes believed him and agreed to Haman’s plan of genocide against the Jews. Queen Esther, herself a Jewess, had been chosen queen of the empire without disclosing her origin. In a series of remarkable events, plainly evincing God’s providence, Esther was able to expose Haman’s vile motives. Not only were the Jews spared destruction, but Esther’s uncle Mordecai was given Haman’s place of honor.
Conclusion
God uses individuals and empires to accomplish His will. Certainly, the Medo-Persian Empire is a case in point. God used this empire to set His captive people free, fund the rebuilding of the temple, and encourage His children that they are never forsaken.
Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Medo-Persian-empire.html#ixzz3LshADeKj
http://www.gotquestions.org/Medo-Persian-empire.html
Question: "What is the significance of the Medo-Persian Empire in biblical history?"
Answer:The Medo-Persians, led byKing Cyrus II, invaded Babylonia from the east in June of 539 B.C. and captured its capital, Babylon, in July of the same year. In biblical chronology, this occurred near the end of theBabylonian exile. Within a short time,Danielbecame a trusted advisor to the new Medo-Persian Empire. This kingdom of the Medes and the Persians was later ruled by Artaxerxes II, or Ahasuerus, who marriedEsther. Today, Persia is essentially synonymous with modern Iran, and this was not so different in ancient times. However, Persia as an ancientkingdom, especially when referenced along with Media, encompassed Egypt in the west to parts of India in the east, and included Asia Minor from the eastern border of Greece to Tajikistan.
The Medo-Persian Empire Foretold
Isaiah,Jeremiahand Daniel all prophesied that the Medes and the Persians would overtake the Babylonian Empire. Isaiah quoted God as saying, “See, I will stir up against them the Medes. . . . Their bows will strike down the young men” (Isaiah 13:17-18). Another prophecy said that the Medes would expand beyond Babylonia and affect all nations (Jeremiah 51:28). Jeremiah also provides the reason for the Medo-Persian ascendancy: “to destroy Babylon” and gain “vengeance for [God’s] temple” (Jeremiah 51:11). Daniel interpreted adreamwhich also foretold the fall of Babylon.
The Writing on the Wall
Daniel also warned of Babylon’s demise on the eve of its fall, as recorded inDaniel 5. King Belshazzar, called “king” because he was left in charge of political affairs while his father was away at war, was using the gold and silver utensils from thetempleas drinking vessels in a night of debauchery. “Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall” (Daniel 5:5). The frightened king summoned Daniel to the banquet hall to interpret the writing. Daniel’s inspired interpretation was dire: God had pronounced judgment on Babylon, and the kingdom would be divided. By morning, “Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom” (Daniel 5:30-31).
End of the Exile
Before the Babylonian exile even began, God told Jeremiah that Judah would “become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (Jeremiah 25:11). Ezra and others recorded that “in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia [539 B.C.], in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus” (Ezra 1:1), and Cyrus allowed all the Jews to return to Judah. Not only did Cyrus release the Jews, but he also returned the stolen temple articles and paid for the Jews’ rebuilding efforts from the royal treasury (Ezra 6:4-5). This was a monumental time in Israel’s history, as Jerusalem and the temple were rebuilt and the Law was reinstituted.
Daniel
Daniel was prominent in the Medo-Persian Empire and a trusted advisor to King Darius. However, after being placed as head of the satraps (governors, of sorts), Daniel was hated by some of them for his quick ascent. They laid a legal trap for Daniel that should have gotten him killed, for he was thrown into the infamouslions’ den. He survived, however, by God’s intervention, and he continued to prophesy, rule, and provide counsel in that foreign land (Daniel 6:28).
Mordecai and Esther
Another key event in the history of Israel also occurred in Persia. Thebook of Estherdescribes the origin of theFeast of Purimand how the Jews were spared mass destruction. When Cyrus released the Jews to their homeland, not all of them elected to return to Judah (Esther 3:8). King Artaxerxes (or “Ahasuerus,” as he is called in Esther) reigned from 404-359 B.C. and likely had little background on his government’s history with the Jews. So, when his top advisor, Haman, accused the Jews of being routinely disobedient to the king’s laws, Artaxerxes believed him and agreed to Haman’s plan of genocide against the Jews. Queen Esther, herself a Jewess, had been chosen queen of the empire without disclosing her origin. In a series of remarkable events, plainly evincing God’s providence, Esther was able to expose Haman’s vile motives. Not only were the Jews spared destruction, but Esther’s uncle Mordecai was given Haman’s place of honor.
Conclusion
God uses individuals and empires to accomplish His will. Certainly, the Medo-Persian Empire is a case in point. God used this empire to set His captive people free, fund the rebuilding of the temple, and encourage His children that they are never forsaken.
Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Medo-Persian-empire.html#ixzz3LshADeKj
All good stuff!!! AND, Haman was hanged on the gallows he had intended to hang Mordecai on.
Major, you did NOT address my points in post # 29. Put up or shut up. I've pointed out from Scripture why Epimanes the Chump is not the "little horn", and if I'm wrong, then address each point as to why that is so. Should be simple for someone so confident in his position, right?
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Well, fortunately, God isn't limited to what seems logical to us, amen? I've often been grateful for that, especially considering where my own "logic" has brought me at times.
I expect there are many implications in your post about correct end time timelines and such, so without entering into that debate, I'll simply observe that there is sufficient detail in 1 John, 2 Thess and Revelation about the events you've mentioned that it's not an affront to our faith in God's justice and compassion, as though He would leave anyone without ample resources to identify these events when they take place. What would be hard to reconcile, though, is if you needed a PhD in ancient history and ancient Hebrew translation in order to recognize these events. Let the academics spend their lives debating out such things. Let's just focus on living out our lives as disciples of Christ
His ways are definitely not our ways. Yet, He says to us, "Come now, and let us reason together." Therefore, there is the need for us to recognize those times when God expects us to understand His Word through the Holy Spirit's appeal to our reason and logic ("Turn ye, turn ye, for why will you die, O house of Israel?"/ "If any man worship the beast...the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God") and when the Holy Spirit appeals to our faith alone ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him").
If the topic at hand were as important as the context of that quotation (Isaiah 1:18), I would agree with you, but I think I'll have to be satisfied to call this a nonessential matter. If you can somehow manage to use reasoning to reach any sort of definitive conclusion about what exactly this prophecy means, you're a much smarter person that I am.
I suppose you'll have to decide for yourself about just how important this issue is in a practical way in how we live as disciples of Christ, and how insistent you really need to be that everyone conforms to your beliefs about it.