Many Christians Have Blasphemed The Holy Spirit.

Thanks Mykuhl.
It could also be said, "How hard it is for those that trust in poverty to enter into the kingdom of God."
Despite the constant condemnation of the so called prosperity gospel, in my mind there is an even greater bondage in the church to the poverty gospel.
Yo! - now is that not the truth.
 
I'll let Francis explain, but I am seeing people almost fall over themselves to declare basically that poverty is holy, by denying the FACT that God wants to continually bless and bring abundance into His people's lives. Why? Not for just our enjoyment (although He loves to do that, too), but so that the world around us can be blessed by us.
I'll be honest, I do not know of anyone claiming poverty to be holy, but, of people being enslaved by it, yes.
Now, once you are enslaved by anything, that something is your master, if something other than God is your master, then God, YHVH God is not your master.
Mmmm... I can see a problem right there.
Francis Drake has rightly brought to light the flip side of the coin, so to say.
 
If by obligations you mean the law, then that's right we are no longer bound by the law. But, this does not mean we are not obligated to live righteously: for Christ did not come to do abolish/destroy the law but to fulfill it. We walk in righteousness and do good works not by our own power but by the power/enabling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit bears the good fruit.
And here also we find His rest, where we find our rest.
 
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I'll be honest, I do not know of anyone claiming poverty to be holy, but, of people being enslaved by it, yes.
Now, once you are enslaved by anything, that something is your master, if something other than God is your master, then God, YHVH God is not your master.
Mmmm... I can see a problem right there.
Francis Drake has rightly brought to light the flip side of the coin, so to say.
Some people consider their lack as a point of humility...false pride comes out of that mindset.
 
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Cturtle

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That reminds me of something that happened decades ago.
A church friend came to me because he was struggling in his business. As we talked, he came up with the following nonsense. "I believe that God is keeping me in poverty so that I always have to turn to him for everything, instead of being able to do what I want to do."
I pointed out to him what James said.-
James2v14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

My friend gloried in his poverty because it made him feel righteous, self righteous, but as I pointed out, if anyone came to him hungry and in need, he had absolutely nothing to give other than the pious advice, "Go in peace, keep warm and well fed."

As Jesus said in Matthew9v29 "Be it unto you according to your faith."

My friend had abundant faith for being poor, and that is exactly what he always got. In no way was he being kept in poverty by God.
In their manic condemnation of the so called "prosperity gospel," many christians have adopted abundant faith for poverty, thus poverty is what they get.

Even if my friend wanted to help someone in need, he would first have to go away and pray for provision, which was unlikely to come because of his belief in poverty.

As a businessman, I did a lot of ministry and counseling with fellow businessmen to help them understand how the Lord would bless them within their business life. Indeed we saw many businessmen have their lives turn around as God intervened.

One day I was asked to call someone in another town who was in trouble financially. I called him and introduced myself. I was met with a tirade of dogma as he launched himself against this "evil prosperity gospel." I had not even spoken a word!
As I tried to encourage him to come to our monthly business fellowship meetings, he kept going back to the same mantra. I tried to give him some testimonies but he was deaf to any good thing I could say. He was emphatic that the purpose of the gospel was solely to get people to heaven, and that it was never God's purpose that we should receive any material blessings at his hand.

As I parted from the conversation, I simply said to him, "Well my friend, be it unto you according to your faith." He was determined that his God wanted him to be poor, and that was his constant experience.
And that is exactly why the devil is perverting the gospel and attacking the truth. If we all had enough for ourselves and plenty left over to give to others....then there would be no poverty, or people going without food or clothes or whatever. We as the Body of Christ would be doing what God has called us all to do.

The sad part is that the devil is keeping a lot of people in direct disobedience to God, with the lies that he has put forth.

Thank You for sharing francis!
 

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That being the case, what point is there in teaching anything at all. If true, your stance needs to be applied to every last comment made on every other thread on this forum, and in every church sermon throughout the world. We should perhaps just leave everyone to their bondages.

And as for my "friend", (he was unknown to me), if you go back and read the comment you will see what I did. He utterly rejected everything he presumed I stood for and was not prepared to countenance any other thought, so I simply left him to the bondage that he believed in.

I do not make it my business to convince anyone against their freewill choices. If people wish to engage in debate, conversation or discussion on a controversial subject then yes I will happily join in. If their mind is closed, then they will reap the fruit of their faith, for good or bad.
That was the purpose of my comment. If people condemn belief in the abundant provision of God, then they will reap the fruit of that.
Good point....all we can do is to tell them the truth....give them the truth of the Word of God and allow the Holy Spirit, and the living Word do the rest. God's Words say that His Word does not return unto Him void, and He knows how to water the seed once we obediently plant it. He definately is Big enough!
 
Good point....all we can do is to tell them the truth....give them the truth of the Word of God and allow the Holy Spirit, and the living Word do the rest. God's Words say that His Word does not return unto Him void, and He knows how to water the seed once we obediently plant it. He definately is Big enough!
Amen... I do agree.....

Encourage or Remind.... instead of Despise and Judge....

The Poor should not judge the Rich: instead to remind....

The Rich should not despise the Poor: instead to encourage….

Check out the word being used by Rich to the Poor: is there despise?

Check out the words used by the Poor to the Rich: is there judgmental?
 
That being the case, what point is there in teaching anything at all. If true, your stance needs to be applied to every last comment made on every other thread on this forum, and in every church sermon throughout the world. We should perhaps just leave everyone to their bondages.
Opps, seems you are trying to answer my question: Are we going to change his mind?

Of course! a fully persuaded can remind or encourage another that is also fully persuaded!

As I see it: What you said above is LIMITING, because your post#137 mentioned Romans 14 as about JUDGING ( a negative rule)

It is more than that, as i see it: it is about ACCEPTING (a positive Rule)

Romans 14 seen as a negative rule “do not judge, do not despise” is limiting… PASSIVE

The positive rule is “to remind, to encourage”…..ACTIVE

There is a world of difference between “do not do unto others” (passive, negative rule)….

while the Teacher teach us “do unto others”…. a positive rule: ACTIVE...

Love is always ACTIVE…
 

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Amen... I do agree.....

Encourage or Remind.... instead of Despise and Judge....

The Poor should not judge the Rich: instead to remind....

The Rich should not despise the Poor: instead to encourage….

Check out the word being used by Rich to the Poor: is there despise?

Check out the words used by the Poor to the Rich: is there judgmental?
Good point! Work together to encourage and remind each other of what the Word of God says....and thus be at peace with one another instead of allowing division to get in there and cause problems!
blessings
 
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Opps, seems you are trying to answer my question: Are we going to change his mind?

Of course! a fully persuaded can remind or encourage another that is also fully persuaded!

As I see it: What you said above is LIMITING, because your post#137 mentioned Romans 14 as about JUDGING ( a negative rule)

It is more than that, as i see it: it is about ACCEPTING (a positive Rule)

Romans 14 seen as a negative rule “do not judge, do not despise” is limiting… PASSIVE

The positive rule is “to remind, to encourage”…..ACTIVE

There is a world of difference between “do not do unto others” (passive, negative rule)….

while the Teacher teach us “do unto others”…. a positive rule: ACTIVE...

Love is always ACTIVE…
It seems to me that you have made what is very simple, into something very complicated, and I suggest you try applying your theory to Paul's writings elsewhere.
Gal1v6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This is hardly passive is it!

I resisted your request as to what I thought Romans14 was about, because I correctly perceived you were setting a trap. You were looking for someone to fall into it so you could go off on a pet subject. You now tell me that Romans14 is not about judging others, but accepting them. That is about as sensible as arguing if a coin has the king/president's head on it or whether it has 50 cents/£5. For your information, coins have two sides just like Romans 14.
Romans14v13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

As far as I am concerned, from its beginning this point scoring diatribe has no connection with my two testimonies (post129) related to people being bound with poverty. I neither condemned, judged nor despised those I ministered to. I was there to encourage them and present them with truth, leaving them to make their own choices.
 
As far as I am concerned, from its beginning this point scoring diatribe has no connection with my two testimonies (post129) related to people being bound with poverty. I neither condemned, judged nor despised those I ministered to. I was there to encourage them and present them with truth, leaving them to make their own choices.
Sorry for that, I did judge on appearance…. I plan to post a general comment: but that word "mantra" got me....
On Acceptance: Accepting we are: Christians towards one another…the cross, Jesus Christ birth, death and resurrection is not to be compromised…

On the "diatribe" : am into Logic, I think : )..... nothing personal, purely analyzing premises and conclusions....

Romans 15:7
Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
 
Ok, am going personal here : )

When I say “am into Logic”….. I enjoy to analyze Faith, Love, Humility…. that is: concepts, ideas….

Am I into practicing it? that is a different story….

Precisely I said on another thread: I enjoy reading post promoting Faith…

I rather have Faith… than Logic...