New theology

[ruperik]

Interesting. I enjoyed reading that, thanks.

Now you got me thinking, so here'r my thoughts so far -

The way I see the Kingdom, is that no flesh is part of the Kingdom. It's all spiritual. If the spiritual realm is what's real, then I don't think any of this physical creation is actually in the Kingdom. Those who are saved are spiritually seated in heavenly places. Their spirit is in the Kingdom, because they've been adopted and placed there by God. My view is that also in the Kingdom is all that is of God. Including everything good about even the worst people. Anything not of God is in the Kingdom of Satan. Physically, we're mixed up a bunch of each, but what makes us in the Kingdom of God or not is whether or not we're adopted and truly His children. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan are absolutely separated spiritually - physical creation is like an actual space between each, not really residing anywhere in either Kingdom. It's here that our physical selves take from the Kingdom of our choice and use the spiritual things of it to affect this spiritually physical world. The physical affects are just what we see most clearly, it's our environment for now. The Kingdom of God then forms us and there are physical changes, but the way I see it, the physical changes are only the advancing of the Kingdom of God by spiritual things they cause/bring. These physical changes are good and all, but remain separated from the actual Kingdoms and melt away in the end.

The physical is just here now because it's how we see and interact and what not. It's our environment, but not where our spirits actually reside. In my view spirits and anything spiritual is not in the physical world, nothing spiritual is part of it. You just have us in heaven with God, Others in Satan's Kingdom with him by 'default', and the physical is just our temporary, clouded view of both of these Kingdoms, where we have our only opportunities in all eternity to call people over here to God's Kingdom before the pathway melts away - the ultimate opportunity going with it. So I think literally, the Kingdoms are always separated, it's just God and not God - just the creation is the temporary ability to view both, and opportunity to choose, to show others these Kingdoms...etc. If there is no time in heaven, then it's only logical to say that ANYONE who is/ ends up saved, time aside - their spirit is in God's Kingdom, and anyone who is not, theirs is in Satan's. We just don't know it, but it is written. I wouldn't say people go from one Kingdom to the other, you know what I mean? We have to deal with time now, and it's how the spirits who end up in heaven come to be so, but my view is there's no transfers - nothing of God's ever being out of the Kingdom and nothing not of Him ever being in. If you consider the Kingdoms, then it's BEEN DONE. Time being only part of creation. Our opportunity. If we're in Christ, we've been in heaven for eternity right? God doesn't change. His son is eternal. We're of Him. Nothing has changed, we're just for a blink - in the created place where we get to decide. So I guess everything always was and always has been, this creation just blinds us and boggles our mind with the silly idea of time. ;p As long as we're in time, though, we gotta do what we gotta do. And trying to understand how the Kingdoms collide is silly and probably impossible since we can't apply time to God and His Kingdom. And it's done by God's hand, we just gotta yield to Him to reveal the Kingdom as much as possible and get people realizing the limited time offer. We need to get the good stuff and flaunt it in Jesus' name, not confuse people with doctrine. No offense, but I think we just blow hot air when we try to apply time to the eternal things and make theories of it. Let's apply time to what we perceive the eternal things as - for we are not seeing them for what they are - so that theories and ideas are then relevant to our physical selves. No offense meant, I don't know much about some of the bigger pictures painted by the bible, I just have a feeling some people put their physical heads into eternity where they don't work and progress is an illusion.

I think some people ponder the eternal things, only to paint a picture that isn't reality, then it's applied to their way of thinking and how they think things get done, and they're unproductive for God's Kingdom because they're basing their efforts on a false image of what their work is going towards.

i could have misread you here, but it sounds like you believe the spirit resides in heaven while we are still on earth. from what i can gather from the bible, our body is our vessel on earth. this does not imply that our spirit resides in heaven, but rather that it resides in our bodies for the time being.

saying that our spirits actually are in heaven for eternity raises several problems. for one, i am quite sure that sin can't exist in heaven, but if our spirits are in heaven while our bodies are in the real world, then isn't sin being introduced to heaven via the link between our bodies and our spirit? i don't think you can deny there is a link...otherwise we couldn't move, eat, speak, hear, etc. you also don't recognize the shaping nature of the world on both our bodies AND our spirits. i firmly believe that God shapes us body and soul through the world. everything from the experiences we have to the people we meet change us, possibly forever. our spirits are not impervious to our environment.

i believe the kingdom in heaven and the kingdom on earth have differences. when we pray, we are praying for the kingdom on earth to be like the kingdom in heaven, but that does not mean it will be. some things in prayer are answered as they are, some things are answered differently then we expected, and some things serve to instruct us. prayer is a strange thing. you never know what is going to happen when you do it. it is quite powerful.

i have only read the first page of comments, so i will now continue with the rest. if i have repeated what someone else said already, i apologize.

David

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

While I am not getting into those implications I would mentioned that our new inner man (spirit) is sinless.

 

[Kevin]

Do you know which Scriptures are viewed to support the first idea?

Hi Ginger,

I have not found any scriptures that actually define that there are two kingdoms. There are references to kingdom of men etc but this in context just refers to the geographical kingdoms man has established on earth and are not reference to the Kingdom of God.

The belief in two kingdoms fighting against each other, actually come from gnostic and greek thinking and have filtered through society ever since.

If you know of any scriptures that support a two kingdom belief, please let me know as I am quite intrigued with this study.

I base all of my christian belief on what Christ taught about various subjects.

If we look at what the bible teaches about satan, he was thrown out of heaven and sent to earth. This does not mean that he rules this earth or kingdom. Jesus refered to him as a prince of this world, not a king. Jesus is king therefore satan is under Jesus' authority. Satan has no kingdom, he is not in charge of hell, God is. Hell is designed for satan and his fellow fallen angels. Satan is not in charge of Hades or Sheol, God is. The bible talks about the angels which are chained up in Hades awaiting final judgement.

We should not underestimate the power and intelligence of satan, but we serve somebody much greater and more powerful than satan. If we operate in obedience, love and the authority of Jesus Christ, satan will flee from us. It is not by our power but that of Jesus Christ.

Who has more authority the prince of this world or a child of God?



Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength
Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies,
Eph 1:21 far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age.



1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

Joh 19:10 Then Pilate said to him, Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to crucify you, and I have authority to release you?
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.

 

[revlynn]

Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion (kingdom) of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves

Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." (Notice Jesus did not say that this was not true. He simply quoted the Scripture that we are only to worship God.)

Question: Both John the Baptist and Jesus Himself began their ministries by proclaiming "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." If everybody is already in the Kingdom of God, why did they bother? Jesus taught us to pray, "Your Kingdom come." Again, if God's Kingdom was all there was, why did He ask us to pray this?

These are only a couple of examples. The tension between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness is right through the Bible.

blessings,

Lynn

 

[Vex]

They are called 'Manifest Sons of God' or 'Kingdom now' theologies. Does anybody have any information on these theologies as I am struggling to find reliable resources.

Those are Pentecostal spins on traditional Dominion theology. The only thing new about them is the Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism had its start in the 20th century.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

I am non denominal but I can definitely say Pentecostalism had it's start in the Book of Acts.

 

[Vex]

I am non denominal but I can definitely say Pentecostalism had it's start in the Book of Acts.

Believing your beliefs to be based on the Bible is a different thing from when those beliefs actually became popular among Christians. The Pentecostal movement didn't get going until the 20th century. Pentecostals themselves often point to 20th century events as the trigger of the Pentecostal movement, like the legendary Azusa Street Revival. E.g. in 1900, there was no Assemblies of God church or other charismatic denomination that I know of (denominations that had "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in their statement of belief, as something separate from salvation).

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

I am quite sure that the moving of the Holy Spirit has been with the Church since the beginning. I do agree that the Pentecostal denominations are relatively young. The Church lost much through religiosity in the dark ages and these things have been slowly restored to the body of Christ. Starting with Martin Luther the Word of God was given anew to the populous and as the end times grow nearer we are seeing more and more of the manifest outpourings of the Holy Spirit.

This is an interesting link on the subject if anyone cares to read about some of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Churches history.

TONGUES THROUGHOUT CHURCH HISTORY

Much love and many blessings, BL.

 

[Kevin]

Those are Pentecostal spins on traditional Dominion theology. The only thing new about them is the Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism had its start in the 20th century.

Incorrect, all of the pentecostal churches in the USA refused to have any connection with the dominion theologians. If you do some research into who preaches dominion theology you will find that many stand alone and are not affiliated to any particular body or group of churches. Like I have posted earlier, they all seem to feed off each other and rely on each other for support. They also seem to have endless resources which enables them to get major media coverage, especially on the internet. This has now influenced many of the pentecostal churches teachings because of the influence it has outside of church circles. The Assemblies of God in the USA still does not recognise these theologians.

 

[Kevin]

Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion (kingdom) of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves

Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." (Notice Jesus did not say that this was not true. He simply quoted the Scripture that we are only to worship God.)

Question: Both John the Baptist and Jesus Himself began their ministries by proclaiming "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." If everybody is already in the Kingdom of God, why did they bother? Jesus taught us to pray, "Your Kingdom come." Again, if God's Kingdom was all there was, why did He ask us to pray this?

These are only a couple of examples. The tension between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness is right through the Bible.

blessings,

Lynn

Interesting, You make a good point.

Does God have authority over the 'kingdom of satan' ?

The bible talks about the various kingdoms that man has estasblished on earth. Are they true kingdoms or are they still under the control of God? Satan said he could give all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, but was he lying? Does he really have the authority to hand over mans kingdoms or do they already belong to Jesus?

If everything is under the control of God then how many true kingdoms are there?

In the passages of scripture you mentioned was Jesus trying to illustrate how many kingdoms there are or was he using the word kingdom so man could understand what He was talking about?

The word kingdom can also mean gospel, when Jesus said that the kingdom of God is at hand, He could have been telling them that God was actually standing right in front of them speaking to them.

I believe this topic on kingdom theology could go very deep and I do not have the theological background to do it justice. It would be interesting to get all the different theologians on this site to give their input.

 

[revlynn]

Surely, if satan had been lying, Jesus would have been quick to point it out. And surely even satan would not have been brazen - and stupid - enough to offer God the Son something that was not his to give.

"Gospel" means "good news". It does not mean "kingdom." "Kingdom" means "rule," it does not mean "good news." If in saying "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" Jesus meant that God was standing in front of them speaking to them, what did John the Baptist mean when he used the same words? Jesus was God in the flesh, but John wasn't.

It is impossible to read the Bible honestly without seeing that the world is divided into those who choose to live under the rule of God and those that choose to live under the rule of satan (or have been deceived into living under his rule.) Whether or not we want to describe the latter as a "true kingdom", Jesus referred to it as a kingdom and compared it to the Kingdom of God. If Jesus says it, that's good enough for me - I'll sort out the semantics when I get to heaven.

blessings,

Lynn

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

Just some random thoughts-

Some things we have positionally, some experientialy. Positionally I am seated with Christ and yet experientialy I am still here on this earth.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Jesus kingdom is not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ just prior to His return:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

Satan has a kingdom :
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Those who do not follow Christ walk in the footsteps of Adam and have indeed surrendered their authority or position (again like Adam) to the kingdom of darkness.

We indeed have authority and we can be used to build His kingdom but only at His direct leading and total dependence on Him will this be accomplished. We are Christ's hands, feet, ears, eyes, etc on this earth but He is the head and nothing done without the head commanding it has any eternal value.

 

[Kevin]

Below are extracts from Vines Dictionary.

Kingdom
<1,,932,basileia>
is primarily an abstract noun, denoting "sovereignty, royal power, dominion," e.g., Rev_17:18, translated "(which) reigneth," lit., "hath a kingdom" (RV marg.); then, by metonymy, a concrete noun, denoting the territory or people over whom a king rules, e.g., Mat_4:8; Mar_3:24. It is used especially of the "kingdom" of God and of Christ.
"The Kingdom of God is (a) the sphere of God's rule, Psa_22:28; Psa_145:13; Dan_4:25; Luk_1:52; Rom_13:1-2. Since, however, this earth is the scene of universal rebellion against God, e.g., Luk_4:5-6; 1Jo_5:19; Rev_11:15-18, the "kingdom" of God is (b) the sphere in which, at any given time, His rule is acknowledged. God has not relinquished His sovereignty in the face of rebellion, demoniac and human, but has declared His purpose to establish it, Dan_2:44; Dan_7:14; 1Co_15:24-25. Meantime, seeking willing obedience, He gave His law to a nation and appointed kings to administer His "kingdom" over it, 1Ch_28:5. Israel, however, though declaring still a nominal allegiance shared in the common rebellion, Isa_1:2-4, and, after they had rejected the Son of God, Joh_1:11 (cp. Mat_21:33-43), were "cast away," Rom_11:15, Rom_11:20, Rom_11:25. Henceforth God calls upon men everywhere, without distinction of race or nationality, to submit voluntarily to His rule. Thus the "kingdom" is said to be "in mystery" now, Mar_4:11, that is, it does not come within the range of the natural powers of observation, Luk_17:20, but is spiritually discerned, Joh_3:3 (cp. 1Co_2:14). When, hereafter, God asserts His rule universally, then the "kingdom" will be in glory, that is, it will be manifest to all; cp. Mat_25:31-34; Phi_2:9-11; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:18.
"Thus, speaking generally, references to the Kingdom fall into two classes, the first, in which it is viewed as present and involving suffering for those who enter it, 2Th_1:5; the second, in which it is viewed as future and is associated with reward, Mat_25:34, and glory, Mat_13:43. See also Act_14:22.
"The fundamental principle of the Kingdom is declared in the words of the Lord spoken in the midst of a company of Pharisees, "the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you," Luk_17:21, marg., that is, where the King is, there is the Kingdom. Thus at the present time and so far as this earth is concerned, where the King is and where His rule is acknowledged, is, first, in the heart of the individual believer, Act_4:19; Eph_3:17; 1Pe_3:15; and then in the churches of God, 1Co_12:3, 1Co_12:5, 1Co_12:11; 1Co_14:37; cp. Col_1:27, where for "in" read "among."
"Now, the King and His rule being refused, those who enter the Kingdom of God are brought into conflict with all who disown its allegiance, as well as with the desire for ease, and the dislike of suffering and unpopularity, natural to all. On the other hand, subjects of the Kingdom are the objects of the care of God, Mat_6:33, and of the rejected King, Heb_13:5.
"Entrance into the Kingdom of God is by the new birth, Mat_18:3; Joh_3:5, for nothing that a man may be by nature, or can attain to by any form of self-culture, avails in the spiritual realm. And as the new nature, received in the new birth, is made evident by obedience, it is further said that only such as do the will of God shall enter into His Kingdom, Mat_7:21, where, however, the context shows that the reference is to the future, as in 2Pe_1:10-11. Cp. also 1Co_6:9-10; Gal_5:21; Eph_5:5.
"The expression 'Kingdom of God' occurs four times in Matthew, 'Kingdom of the Heavens' usually taking its place. The latter (cp. Dan_4:26) does not occur elsewhere in NT, but see 2Ti_4:18, "His heavenly Kingdom." ... This Kingdom is identical with the Kingdom of the Father (cp. Mat_26:29 with Mar_14:25), and with the Kingdom of the Son (cp. Luk_22:30). Thus there is but one Kingdom, variously described: of the Son of Man, Mat_13:41; of Jesus, Rev_1:9; of Christ Jesus, 2Ti_4:1; "of Christ and God," Eph_5:5; "of our Lord, and of His Christ," Rev_11:15; "of our Lord, and of His Christ," Rev_11:15; "of our God, and the authority of His Christ," Rev_12:10; "of the Son of His love," Col_1:13.
"Concerning the future, the Lord taught His disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come," Mat_6:10, where the verb is in the point tense, precluding the notion of gradual progress and development, and implying a sudden catastrophe as declared in 2Th_2:8.
"Concerning the present, that a man is of the Kingdom of God is not shown in the punctilious observance of ordinances, which are external and material, but in the deeper matters of the heart, which are spiritual and essential, viz., 'righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit,' Rom_14:17." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 68-70.]
"With regard to the expressions "the Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of the Heavens," while they are often used interchangeably, it does not follow that in every case they mean exactly the same and are quite identical.
"The Apostle Paul often speaks of the Kingdom of God, not dispensationally but morally, e.g., in Rom_14:17; 1Co_4:20, but never so of the Kingdom of Heaven. 'God' is not the equivalent of 'the heavens.' He is everywhere and above all dispensations, whereas 'the heavens' are distinguished from the earth, until the Kingdom comes in judgment and power and glory (Rev_11:15, RV) when rule in heaven and on earth will be one.
"While, then, the sphere of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are at times identical, yet the one term cannot be used indiscriminately for the other. In the 'Kingdom of Heaven' (32 times in Matt.), heaven is in antithesis to earth, and the phrase is limited to the Kingdom in its earthly aspect for the time being, and is used only dispensationally and in connection with Israel. In the 'Kingdom of God', in its broader aspect, God is in antithesis to 'man' or 'the world,' and the term signifies the entire sphere of God's rule and action in relation to the world. It has a moral and spiritual force and is a general term for the Kingdom at any time. The Kingdom of Heaven is always the Kingdom of God, but the Kingdom of God is not limited to the Kingdom of Heaven, until in their final form, they become identical; e.g., Rev_11:15, RV; Joh_3:5; Rev_12:10." (An Extract).

 

[Kevin]

Surely, if satan had been lying, Jesus would have been quick to point it out. And surely even satan would not have been brazen - and stupid - enough to offer God the Son something that was not his to give.

"Gospel" means "good news". It does not mean "kingdom." "Kingdom" means "rule," it does not mean "good news." If in saying "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" Jesus meant that God was standing in front of them speaking to them, what did John the Baptist mean when he used the same words? Jesus was God in the flesh, but John wasn't.

It is impossible to read the Bible honestly without seeing that the world is divided into those who choose to live under the rule of God and those that choose to live under the rule of satan (or have been deceived into living under his rule.) Whether or not we want to describe the latter as a "true kingdom", Jesus referred to it as a kingdom and compared it to the Kingdom of God. If Jesus says it, that's good enough for me - I'll sort out the semantics when I get to heaven.

blessings,

Lynn

Thanks Lynn,

Satan used the same tactics on Jesus as he did on adam and eve. He lied!

Sorry maybe I was not clear, when I meant kingdom can mean the gospel, I meant it in the context of the scripture when Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, this can mean the gospel (good news) is at hand.

I do not think we will ever truely understand Gods kingdom until we actually see all things as He does (if that is possible). This is probably one of the reasons Jesus described it in parables.

The reason I originaly started this thread was to dig a bit deeper into dominion theologies which are creeping into many churches today, and one of the issues they have is their understanding of the kingdom of God.

All I know from the Bible is that Gods authority is over all things. God rules over the earth just as He does over the spiritual, therefore all rulers (kingdoms) are actually under Gods authority, therefore in effect there is only one true kingdom, one true ruler, and that is the Kingdom of God. God allows evil to co-exist with good (parable of the wheat and the tares) up to a point and when Gods kingdom comes to fulfillment then evil and righteousness will be separated for ever.

 

[revlynn]

Sorry, Kevin, but I simply do not believe that Jesus, God in the flesh, would be stupid enough to believe a lie. Do you?

Nor do I believe that satan would be stupid enough to lie to Him. When satan said that the kingdoms of this world were his to give, he was telling the truth.

When God created mankind, He placed our original parents on earth with a mandate to "fill the earth, subdue it and rule over it." (Genesis 1:28) In other words, He set them as His vice-regents on earth. When satan deceived them into obeying him rather than God, they effectively handed that rulership to him. The world became, as it were, a rebel state within the overarching Kingdom of God. Your quote from Vine refers to the Kingodm of God as "the sphere of God's rule." That being the case, then surely the "sphere of satan's rule" can be referred to as the kingdom of satan. Can you really deny that satan rules over the hearts and minds of a vast number of people in this world, and has done so throughout history?

What Jesus did at the Cross, far beyond simply achieving our salvation, was to reclaim this world as part of the kingdom of God. Hence Colossians 2:15 - "Having disarmed principalities and powers He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing ove them by the cross." The picture is that of a Roman triumph, where the conquering general would ride into town with the princes of the countries he had overthrown, stripped and chained to his chariot wheels, so that everyone could see that he had defeated them.

Let me say very clearly that I believe that God is the ultimate and absolute sovereign, and in the long run it is His will that will be done. However, he has given us free will and the right to choose whose rule we will live under.

Jesus spoke about two kingdoms. For me, that settles it: There are two kingdoms. There are those who choose to live under the rule of God, and those who choose to live under the rule of satan (or, as I said in my earlier post, are deceived into living under it.)

Jesus also spoke of those who were "sons of the devil" (John 8:42-47) and "sons of the evil one". (Matt 13:38-38 - "He answered, 'The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.' ")

You say "dominion theologies" are "creeping into many churches today." Perhaps it is because some people are finally seeing what the Bible has said all along.

It is obvious we are not going to agree on this. Therefore I will not be responding again in this thread.

blessings,

Lynn

 

[Ramsey]

Sorry, Kevin, but I simply do not believe that Jesus, God in the flesh, would be stupid enough to believe a lie. Do you?

Nor do I believe that satan would be stupid enough to lie to Him. When satan said that the kingdoms of this world were his to give, he was telling the truth.

When God created mankind, He placed our original parents on earth with a mandate to "fill the earth, subdue it and rule over it." (Genesis 1:28) In other words, He set them as His vice-regents on earth. When satan deceived them into obeying him rather than God, they effectively handed that rulership to him. The world became, as it were, a rebel state within the overarching Kingdom of God. Your quote from Vine refers to the Kingodm of God as "the sphere of God's rule." That being the case, then surely the "sphere of satan's rule" can be referred to as the kingdom of satan. Can you really deny that satan rules over the hearts and minds of a vast number of people in this world, and has done so throughout history?

What Jesus did at the Cross, far beyond simply achieving our salvation, was to reclaim this world as part of the kingdom of God. Hence Colossians 2:15 - "Having disarmed principalities and powers He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing ove them by the cross." The picture is that of a Roman triumph, where the conquering general would ride into town with the princes of the countries he had overthrown, stripped and chained to his chariot wheels, so that everyone could see that he had defeated them.

Let me say very clearly that I believe that God is the ultimate and absolute sovereign, and in the long run it is His will that will be done. However, he has given us free will and the right to choose whose rule we will live under.

Jesus spoke about two kingdoms. For me, that settles it: There are two kingdoms. There are those who choose to live under the rule of God, and those who choose to live under the rule of satan (or, as I said in my earlier post, are deceived into living under it.)

Jesus also spoke of those who were "sons of the devil" (John 8:42-47) and "sons of the evil one". (Matt 13:38-38 - "He answered, 'The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.' ")

You say "dominion theologies" are "creeping into many churches today." Perhaps it is because some people are finally seeing what the Bible has said all along.

It is obvious we are not going to agree on this. Therefore I will not be responding again in this thread.

blessings,

Lynn

I agree.
It's all explained in the Bible.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

This thread has been well discussed . Everyone has stated their views and no one is changing their minds.

With that in mind, it is the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained and the thread will be closed.

If anyone wishes to add something to this thread that is of a differing viewpoint and has not already been covered, please let anyone on the Moderator Team know, and reopening of this thread will be considered.

We thank all who participated.