Offices of ministry

Major said:
I agree!
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Do those who are pastors, teachers start out as such? Did they not all start out as a disciple and had to learn just just like every one else, before they were put into a place of teaching or pastoring others? The work of the "ministry" is not or will it ever be just to those who are in the five fold ministry, as these all are suppose to teach upcoming believers to "do the work of the ministry" which is the "building of the body of Christ". The five fold ministry does not do this, that job was given to all those in the body of Christ to do it together as each one does it's part.
 
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CCW95A said:
Do those who are pastors, teachers start out as such? Did they not all start out as a disciple and had to learn just just like every one else, before they were put into a place of teaching or pastoring others? The work of the "ministry" is not or will it ever be just to those who are in the five fold ministry, as these all are suppose to teach upcoming believers to "do the work of the ministry" which is the "building of the body of Christ". The five fold ministry does not do this, that job was given to all those in the body of Christ to do it together as each one does it's part.
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Sorry brother but that is just another way to say that there are apostles today and I can not support that teaching.
 
You do not have to be a 'Prophet' to prophecy .
For there is a distinction between the "gifts" of prophecy which the Holy Spirit gives as severally as He wills.
and the ministry of a Prophet as listed in Ephesians .
An Apostle surely must be more than one who is sent to preach the Gospel. For all children of God are so sent and "as the Father sent me so send I you"
The scriptures speak about the "foundations of the Apostles and the Prophets" Jesus being the cornerstone .
It would be true then to say that in some way they lay the foundations where as others build on them.
That is not given to every man for obvious reasons .
For the foundations to any building or structure have to be VERY exact with little or rather no leeway of error . For whatever is laid down as foundational whether in truth or error will be 'multiplied ' as the structure is built on it.
if in error then sooner or later that structure will fail. For what seemed a minor thing in the foundations is more and more manifested as you go along not only to be an error but brings the whole structure into disrepute .
The very fact that the scriptures warn the people of God of false prophets and apsotles is an indicator of the last days . That many of Gods people seemed taken with them bewitched or "seduced..." by their performances and big swelling words their puffed up and deceptive utterances and "doctrines of devils" making merchandise of Gods people means that the foundations they have been laying will in the lives of the people believing their errors be as built on sand.
Jesus said they who hear my words either then directly or by the Apostles and doeth them ,I will liken unto them as wise men " that DUG DEEP and built his house upon a rock.,........"

"I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" said Jesus .
The tabernacle made with hands was to be made of such exactitude that to do differently brought death or would to the builders.
How much the more then the temple not made with hands?
The church needs true prophets who will not be popular . "For which of the prophets did you not stone?"
and it needs true Apostles . That Paul said were like or considered " the off scouring of the earth " who in passing were all killed as well .and John who was not was still if tradition is true was put in a vat of boiling oil.
No man in his right mind would seek the posts. For they are vales of tears and much grief .
But they are called of God , made by God and enabled by God to do the work of God that no man can will or do. In of and by himself .
and in spite of the grief and tears and labour .They no doubt have a joy that very few experience and a fellowship with God while open to all few again enjoy. To comfort them.
They must suffer without the camp. Even as Moses did and the Lord.
But will ensure that THE Church of God will be perfected and presented to the Lord as a chaste virgin unspotted by the world nor unclean with idolitory .
For that with the others is the call of God and the work of God they are given to do.
To those who suggest we do not need them today are mistaken then for the reasons given at least in part . For every generation has a tendency to drift and go off kilter and build as if there was no foundation thinking they are the foundations and the truth is what they say it is .
Primarily the Apostles and Prophets ensure otherwise and all the other ministers teach and minister the truth of it .Locally and or in its various applications with them under God.

in Christ
gerald
 
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Marilyn C said:
Hi @Major,

It is so good to see the way you & Cturtle relate. A good example to us all. Now I do understand what you are saying here -




However have you considered that `the requirement for the apostolic ministry to have been with Jesus during His ministry,` was for the 12 apostles – pre-ascension, only.

`Therefore, all these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in & out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day that He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)

It was needed for the 12 (with Matthias) to be witnesses of Christ`s life, death & resurrection. These 12 apostles will be the rulers over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

Now when Christ ascended He Himself gave - `some to be apostles….` (Eph. 4: 11) These ascension or Headship ministry, came after Christ`s ascension & thus have a different purpose than the 12 pre-ascension apostles.

Yes both witness to the fact of Christ`s ascension, but only the 12 were able to verify by being eye witnesses. The later Apostles although did not physically walk with Jesus, do have His Holy Spirit & Christ`s own apostolic ministry.


Marilyn.
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After that the Holy Spirit shall come "Ye shall be my witnesses"
If they who saw him in the flesh were not as blessed as those who did not see him in the flesh but still believed how is it that the qualification of an apostles is to be witnesses to his death and ressurection?
Know ye not that in our bodies we carry both the death and the resurection of Jesus Christ?
and thus bare witness to both?
I do by my life and if needs must by my death bear witness to the death and resurection of the Lord.
For "I am crucified with Christ."
and therefore dead to sin .
being dead "
I am buried with Christ"
and am by the grace of God manifesting the resurection of Christ also .In some measure and growing .
"For the body is dead because of sin, but if the same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in me (which He does) then He will also quicken my mortal body ..."
Then I am His witness even as he said it .
There is then more to this than meets the eye . As to an Apostle . For Saul of Tarsus was a man" out of time" and was not counted among them . Yet God called him to be an Apostle and was "by the will of God "
In truth he is the pattern of an Apostle that if any come after will in some measure have to follow .

in Christ
gerald
 
Sometimes (perhaps more and more frequently now) I wonder if it's not especially helpful to think of these things as "offices of ministry" exactly. Perhaps, "equipings" may be a more accurate term?

This is why:

God will raise up whoever He chooses to do his work, not (necessarily) the people we elect or name to an office. We may elect a person to be "the pastor" of a church, but God will still raise up the people (maybe not just one person) He wants to in that local church to do the actual work of pastoring. Sometimes I wonder if naming people to offices can actually hinder the work of the Spirit. I suspect that in this passage, Paul is just naming some examples of ways God might equip people for ministry, not making a comprehensive list of official offices that all have specific definitions... but hey, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Just something I've been thinking about based on some observations I've been making in churches. Like, how many times has the official "pastor" of a church actually been a pastor to me? Maybe never, in some churches. But God has still led me to people in those local churches who have "pastored" me. The Spirit can equip anyone to do or be anything at any time for any amount of time, and I don't think the ways we are doing God's work always (or ever) has to be named with a title. I'm just not sure it's the intention here to think of these as "offices" and ensure precise definitions of their functions.
 
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