Ok Let's Talk About It...pierced Ears And Tattoos?

Okay folk, so I sense that some people want to theorize; while others - maybe with the motive of the value of tattoo design witness in view - look at it more from a pragmatic perspective.

Fact is, at 18 these days, so many young men and women get tattooed for their birthday that I guess, when some Christian young people wish to show that they are starting out in life with some witness ink, many parents will at least be glad that they are thus motivated, whether or not they would do it themselves.

Blessings.
 
From a pragmatic perspective, faith related designs make very effective conversation-starters. Motive counts for a lot, I think. I met a guy who had the entire John 3:16 text tattooed on his arm. I'm sure it has led to many conversations.
Click to expand...

Bro, I see where you are coming from, but maybe we can look at it another way, ...conversations, but did they produce conversions?

Paul said to the Corinthians entrenched in debauchery, "I preached to you the Gospel and not with the wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect. Paul didn't talk about John 3:16, he didn't talk about the Roman road, which are good in their context, but no, he preached, "you are a sinners going to hell, Christ was crucified for you on the Cross (according to Scriptures), was buried, and rose again the third day (according to Scriptures)," that, he tells us, is the Gospel and there is a "power" when using it while evangelizing that is not found in other Scriptures.

However, Paul did try evangelizing with "wisdom of words" on Mars Hill and he was heckled and dismissed with very few conversions.

So personally, I want for myself and you (preferable more than a conversation starter) is what Daniel prophesied for us, "they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the heavens; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan 12:3

Blessings,

Gene
 
JustPassingThru said:
Bro, I see where you are coming from, but maybe we can look at it another way, ...conversations, but did they produce conversions?

Paul said to the Corinthians entrenched in debauchery, "I preached to you the Gospel and not with the wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect. Paul didn't talk about John 3:16, he didn't talk about the Roman road, which are good in their context, but no, he preached, "you are a sinners going to hell, Christ was crucified for you on the Cross (according to Scriptures), was buried, and rose again the third day (according to Scriptures)," that, he tells us, is the Gospel and there is a "power" when using it while evangelizing that is not found in other Scriptures.

However, Paul did try evangelizing with "wisdom of words" on Mars Hill and he was heckled and dismissed with very few conversions.

So personally, I want for myself and you (preferable more than a conversation starter) is what Daniel prophesied for us, "they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the heavens; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan 12:3

Blessings,

Gene
Click to expand...

It's the kind of 'link in a chain' situation that may lead to blessing; hard to discount.

One doesn't have to know the end from the beginning before having a conviction that it may lead to witness opportunties, anyway.

Blessings.
 
I will try to state my OPINION again more clearly without any possible 'glibness':

Tattoos and the like fall into that category of things that the Bible doesn't specifically address for believers in our present age.

So you have to look back at the scripture that is contextually applicable. In this case, we are most likely dealing with the human body in general and the applied purpose and design for it. We are taught in scripture that the human 'body' is the temple of the Holy Spirit, created by God as He desired.

We are also taught to 'follow' Christ's lead; to become an ambassador to Christ. When we chose to carry the Christian banner as our 'colors' if you will, we are to do it God's way.

When people start down the road with 'the Bible doesn't say not to do it'; it is a justification for their fleshly sin nature. Teaching this type of doctrine is very close-if not the same- as teaching false doctrine. Which the Bible clearly says NOT to do.

Therefore; 'taking heed to ourselves', we should not teach that anything-including tattoos- is 'okay' just because we cannot prove or disprove anything on the subject.

So as gently and as loving as I can say it: I do not condone the teaching of anything that would contradict the teachings on keeping our bodies 'Holy and acceptable' before God for any reason.

I do not condemn anyone for having tattoos; but to teach defacing of the body is 'okay' under the "Christian Marque" is just plain....

well that's your-opinion I guess.

We all sin, (WE-myself included); but to follow truth is to fight the sin-not promote it-even if we put it in our man-made 'grey area'. I overeat-I know I am wrong-and I fight it. But I seem to lose a lot more than I win. Will you condemn me for it? Will Christ? I am convicted through the Holy Spirit to do what is right-but I give up the battle to my flesh. Sorry....

But to say it is okay to for me to tell other people to go ahead and overeat-fatten up the temple- that would be sin on my part.
 
Farouk- your angle is about seed planting the Gospel using body art as a tool; correct?

And you feel that it is acceptable to do so; correct?

Would you agree this is your opinion?
 
JustPassingThru said:
The word "woven" is the Hebrew word raw-qam', Strong's #H7551, used 9 times in the Old Testament, 6 times "needlework," 2 times "embroiderer" and 1 time "woven."
The word "frame" in your translation is o'-tsem, Strong's #H6108 which means body.
The word depth in you translation is takh-tee', Strong''s #H8482 which is used figuratively of a woman's womb and the word earth is simple to understand, "...and the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground."
Click to expand...


No problem with the actual wording at all, just the way you framed it. God/Jesus was actually doing the 'knitting' when in fact that is NOT what happens, unless you believe He also makes sick, evil and congenitally deformed people?


JustPassingThru said:
If that's the way you think, then what do you do with these, Ps 51:5, Ge 5:3, conceived in sin and born with a sin nature, and I didn't say we are perfect in any way.
Click to expand...


I have no problem with what Psalm 51:5 says, as it is a song based on guilty and repentant feelings after David sinned. Not everything in the Bible establishes a fact or principle of God. Many things convey the nature or feelings of the writer. Have you read Lamentations lately? I don't see what you're getting at in Gen 5:3?


JustPassingThru said:
Doesn't that kinda refute what you are saying about God not being there when we are growing in our mother's womb?
Click to expand...



Well that's not what I said, but in any event David is talking about the Omnipresent nature of God, and NOT being hidden doesn't mean God was there as well.
 
It's not every Christian's means of witness. But if we waited until perfection had been achieved in every witness-motivated endeavor before doing it, we would probably not do much at all.

And is IS a proven effective conversation-starter.

The fact that some Christians prefer not to do it, doesn't nullify its proven effectiveness in witness for others.

Blessings.
 
No problem with the actual wording at all, just the way you framed it. God/Jesus was actually doing the 'knitting' when in fact that is NOT what happens, unless you believe He also makes sick, evil and congenitally deformed people?
Click to expand...

So if Jesus is not doing the "knitting" then who is? Col 1:16

And to make your answers more credible how about backing up what you say with Scripture.

I have no problem with what Psalm 51:5 says, as it is a song based on guilty and repentant feelings after David sinned. Not everything in the Bible establishes a fact or principle of God. Many things convey the nature or feelings of the writer. Have you read Lamentations lately? I don't see what you're getting at in Gen 5:3?
Click to expand...

Inspired by the Holy Spirit. so don't you think He knew what He was directing David to write?

Gen 5:3 tells us that Adam passed his fallen nature down to progeny.

Well that's not what I said, but in any event David is talking about the Omnipresent nature of God, and NOT being hidden doesn't mean God was there as well.
Click to expand...

?????

First you say God is Omnipresent and then are you saying there are places He isn't?

So tell me, when did God start numbering the hairs on my head, in the womb or after my birth?

Gene
 
It's not every Christian's means of witness. But if we waited until perfection had been achieved in every witness-motivated endeavor before doing it, we would probably not do much at all.

And is IS a proven effective conversation-starter.

The fact that some Christians prefer not to do it, doesn't nullify its proven effectiveness in witness for others.
Click to expand...


There is a Divine plan that Jesus taught for evangelizing, Mat 13:15, we start with Eph 2:1, man is dead in his trespasses and sin, dead man can't see, hear, think/rationalize or receive, the first step is praying for a person's eye's (spiritual) to be opened so that they can see their spiritual condition, lost going to Hell, then when they become cognizant of their dilemma we pray for their ears to be opened to "hear" the Gospel, then we pray that their intelligence would be opened so that they could understand the Truth of the Gospel, after that we pray for God to open their heart (Acts 16:14) so that they can receive (John 1:12-13) Jesus as Lord and Savior, now I humbly ask what part a tattoo would play in this?

I don't have a problem with anyone having a tattoo, my problem is thinking we can use a tattoo as an attention grabber that is more powerful than saying, "Do you know Jesus loves you and unless you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will die in your sins and spend Eternity in Hell."

Isn't this kind of thinking what is making the Church in America so ineffective today?

I mean, I've read missionary reports of missionaries in China that just say Jesus loves you and that provokes a question of, "how can I have/know that love," and then the Gospel is presented and souls are saved and added to the Kingdom, the same thing is happening in Africa, Russia, Iraq, Iran, ...and all without the aid of tattoos.

Gene
 
JustPassingThru said:
There is a Divine plan that Jesus taught for evangelizing, Mat 13:15, we start with Eph 2:1, man is dead in his trespasses and sin, dead man can't see, hear, think/rationalize or receive, the first step is praying for a person's eye's (spiritual) to be opened so that they can see their spiritual condition, lost going to Hell, then when they become cognizant of their dilemma we pray for their ears to be opened to "hear" the Gospel, then we pray that their intelligence would be opened so that they could understand the Truth of the Gospel, after that we pray for God to open their heart (Acts 16:14) so that they can receive (John 1:12-13) Jesus as Lord and Savior, now I humbly ask what part a tattoo would play in this?

I don't have a problem with anyone having a tattoo, my problem is thinking we can use a tattoo as an attention grabber that is more powerful that saying, "Do you know Jesus loves you and unless you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will die in your sins and spend Eternity in Hell."

Isn't this kind of thinking what is making the Church in America so ineffective today?

I mean, I've read missionary reports of missionaries in China that just say Jesus loves you and that provokes a question of, "how can I have/know that love," and then the Gospel is presented and souls are saved and added to the Kingdom, the same thing is happening in Africa, Russia, Iraq, Iran, ...and all without the aid of tattoos.

Gene
Click to expand...

A Scripture reference displayed, for example.

'John 3:16'.

Or the word 'forgiven'.

Or the Christian fish sign: <><

All could evoke questions and ideal lead-ins.

Anywhere else, such displays would presumably be positively viewed.

I have a hard time thinking that they can be positively viewed, except as tattoos.

Blessings.
 
I do not find piercings or tattoos necessary for any type of Christian witness. Honestly, to make such a claim is a HUGE stretch. Yes, they can be tools, but overall, I think that if all of Christianity had remained unified behind a "clean" appearance, our message to the world would be a lot less confusing. Most of the hypocrisy that people like to point to when attacking Christians comes from the fact that some speak against such practices while others openly do them. It's not true hypocrisy, but we lack unity to a level that I've never encountered with any other group or religion. For this same reason, I also feel that it would be better if all Christians denied alcohol (without trying to force the entire world to ban it). It sends a confusing message when so many are so heavily against it, but then others aren't. At the same time, permitting alcohol would have the same effect, but would be harder to support because of the lives it has destroyed.

However, once again, there has to be a line. We can make the claim that any activity that isn't worthy of Christ is therefore to be avoided. Take that to the extreme and suddenly you have to go live in a cave somewhere. One way or another, there is a line. So where is that line? Is it with piercings? Is it with Television? Is it with buying food from a grocery story that hired teens that might be using that money to buy drugs? It is with using the Internet that continuously has been the number one purveyor of porn since the first few servers went live?

The way I see it, there are few activities that we can do that can be completely sanctified. We are told to be in the world, but not of the world. I've seen that interpreted to mean so many things, I think I've lost track of what I originally thought when I heard it. I do not have the slightest problem with anyone who is convicted to avoid piercing, or eating meat, or any other activity in which humans can participate. The problem always comes when we try to force our convictions on others. It simply doesn't work. We are literally fighting against the Holy Spirit. We are saying that we don't trust the Holy Spirit, because if we did, we wouldn't have to be so emotional about it. We can easily state our views without being emotional, but the frustration bleeds through as a person who doesn't even understand their own convictions. Again, I don't mind not always understanding my own convictions. I'm not greater than the Holy Spirit who is charged with revealing sin, I do not have to understand, only obey. I only ask that nobody else try to be the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit reveals sin, and we try to call out slivers in the eyes of others, then are we not acting as the Holy Spirit? Would that not be Blasphemy? Walk softly always so as not to offend the little ones in Christ as you may actually be the thorns that strangle their seeds.
 
Stan said:
This is kinda like the debates/discussions I used to have about rock music way back in the seventies when I got saved, but let's go for it. WHY or WHY NOT is it acceptable?
Click to expand...
Wild music, opposite sex clothing and haircuts cannot be compared due to the permanence / tainting and scarring nature of tattoos and piercings.

Our body is the temple of God. If you were a Jewish high priest, would you graffiti the holy grail? We can fix the holy grail. We can dress it with fine cloth. We can dust and varnish it. But dare we graffiti it. Did God really need to tell the high priests not to do that?

History shows us that tattoos and piercings were rife amongst pagan tribes and amongst the rebellious individuals of the last century. I don't picture an elder at any traditional church giving his approval.

I will accept that in these days it is certainly possible to get tattoos and piercings with no ill intentions to God. But I firmly believe that as we mature and respect God and our body more, we should stop. The world clearly does it for intimadation, insecurity, pride, vanity, pagan culture and rebellion against God and how He made us. If we say our motivation is different, then what of the blur we create knowing the 'worlds' motivation?
 
I always laugh when I hear the "graffiti" argument. Has that ever convinced anyone?

Though, I am inclined to agree that I don't really see mature Christians getting tattoos and piercings. That seems like something more for the newer generations. However, I also remember the way I am often treated by Christians simply because of my tattoos. It creates a gulf at times.
 
Banarenth said:
For this same reason, I also feel that it would be better if all Christians denied alcohol (without trying to force the entire world to ban it). It sends a confusing message when so many are so heavily against it, but then others aren't. At the same time, permitting alcohol would have the same effect, but would be harder to support because of the lives it has destroyed.
Click to expand...
Agreed. For me it has always been the revelry that follows drinking. A Christian will never beat his wife, swear at his family or start a fight with some stranger if his head is dizzy. If I drink I choose my company well and limit my intake.
Banarenth said:
Walk softly always so as not to offend the little ones in Christ as you may actually be the thorns that strangle their seeds.
Click to expand...
That is true but needs to be accompanied with Proverbs 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 1 Tim 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers. 1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.

It is quite a balancing act.
Banarenth said:
I always laugh when I hear the "graffiti" argument. Has that ever convinced anyone?
Click to expand...
:) Its the perfect parallel to draw though.
 
It's not THAT much of a balancing act. It is compassionate to point out something that is harming a brother, such as sin. It is entirely a different thing to just ride them about it at every opportunity. Sadly, we have a lot of the second, but very few of the first. I see far too many children being stepped on while the daddy's (and those wanting to be daddy's) battle it out.

The graffiti parallel only works from your perspective though, that's why I laugh. It reminds me of political discussions that caricaturize the opposing viewpoint.
 
Interesting discussion; I think it shows again that on the one hand some Christians like to theorize deeply about a matter such as tattoos (even whether other Christians 'ought' to have faith related designs); on the other, some Christians tend to look at the matter pragmatically and figure that a faith based tattoo design (whether a Bible ref., or Christian fish sign on a wrist or ankle, etc.) will most likely be a very effective conversation-starter in witness.

The levels of this discussion seem thus to occur simultaneously but differently.

Blessings.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top