Original Sin

Phoneman777 said:
I don't think we are born condemned for Adam's sin, rather, I think we come under condemnation when we knowingly (and inevitably) choose to sin. David speaks of the "sinful nature" that Adam's original sin passed to his mother, of whom he was born. The Catholic church has always taught that babies are born condemned by Adam's sin and need to be baptized to "wash away original sin", lest they die condemned. In the past, regional bans of religious rites, such as infant baptism, over an entire area were effective in frightening the people into pressuring the out of line secular authority to resubmit to the supreme authority of the church, at which time it was lifted. Protestants interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus removed the guilt of original sin from us the instant that it passed to us when he stepped in between it and Adam and Eve in promising to take the guilt upon Himself at Calvary.
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Interesting. Do you think that 1 Corinthians 7:14 talks about children being born forgiven because of the faith of one of their parents? Of course that if this were the case those children would still need repentance and conversion in the future, once their reason is strong enough to understand these concepts. However, they would be saved (in every sense of the word) during their infancy because of the faith of one (or both) of their parents. Is this what you believe?
 
Major said:
Acts 17:26...........
“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth”.

WHY??? Because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was THE result of sin. It occurred two ways.

First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship.

Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

Romans 5:18-19 says,........
"through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners."

We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam we are already born spiritually dead (separated from God) and die physically.

1 Cor. 15:22...........
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”

Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard.

Gal 3:19...............
“Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.”

Rom. 5:20-21............
“Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature.
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Thanks Major. And how do you interpret verses such as Deuteronomy 24:16 (perhaps a purely legalistic verse with no theological relevance) and Ezekiel 18:20 (this one is more difficult to understand within the paradigm of the doctrine of the original sin).
 
tezriLi said:
Oh, man. That was years ago. I would be glad to try to find my notes, however, if you'll remind me. I am almost ready to go home from work with a terrific headache . . . .

EZRI -- READ PAGE 2 HERE!!
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Oh, man. They don't make Bibles very well, and I kind of go through them. I am not sure I can find that one, but maybe I can find one that I rewrote the notes in . . . . I'll try to find something, but I think that those here probably put such references in their posts . . . .
 
tezriLi said:
Oh, man. They don't make Bibles very well, and I kind of go through them. I am not sure I can find that one, but maybe I can find one that I rewrote the notes in . . . . I'll try to find something, but I think that those here probably put such references in their posts . . . .
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Thanks. Don't worry. I believe that most of the relevant verses will be quoted during the discussion, as you said.
 
SergioL said:
Thanks Major. And how do you interpret verses such as Deuteronomy 24:16 (perhaps a purely legalistic verse with no theological relevance) and Ezekiel 18:20 (this one is more difficult to understand within the paradigm of the doctrine of the original sin).
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Good question.

IMO, neither one speaks to the specific doctrine of "Original sin.' It would be an error to try and force the context of either to validate something that they do not speak to.

In Deut., Moses is speaking and giving the Law on how to live. He prohibits further injustices such as taking the life of the son for the crimes of his father or vice versa. The Lord teaches that everyone shall be punished for his own crime, which of course underscores the necessity of personal responsibility.

In Ezekiel, the principle that a son should not suffer for the sins of the father was established in that Deut. verse and also in 2 Kings 14:6. I can see where the question could have arisen from when Ex. 20:5 refers to children of the 3rd and 4th generation suffering for the sins of their fathers.

It is true that children tend to inherit and follow the example of their fathers. BUT.........in such a case, the sin would be their own and they would be suffering for their own sin. Therefore......the principle of individual accountability is affirmed and confirmed.
 
CCW95A said:
If someone is innocent were would God send someone? All aborted and very young children who do not fully comprehend the difference between right and wrong go to be with the Lord.
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Agreed.....babies go to be with God and there is no sin with God ... so babies have no sin.
 
Major said:
Good question.

IMO, neither one speaks to the specific doctrine of "Original sin.' It would be an error to try and force the context of either to validate something that they do not speak to.

In Deut., Moses is speaking and giving the Law on how to live. He prohibits further injustices such as taking the life of the son for the crimes of his father or vice versa. The Lord teaches that everyone shall be punished for his own crime, which of course underscores the necessity of personal responsibility.

In Ezekiel, the principle that a son should not suffer for the sins of the father was established in that Deut. verse and also in 2 Kings 14:6. I can see where the question could have arisen from when Ex. 20:5 refers to children of the 3rd and 4th generation suffering for the sins of their fathers.

It is true that children tend to inherit and follow the example of their fathers. BUT.........in such a case, the sin would be their own and they would be suffering for their own sin. Therefore......the principle of individual accountability is affirmed and confirmed.
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One other thing that should, in my opinion, be considered. When the L-rd says He will visit the sins of the fathers upon the offspring, it is good to study the word, visit. Basically, it means to go to the situation with the intention of helping. When G-d visits the sins of the fathers, He "goes to" the offspring to see if they are rejecting the wrong-doing, then He sets up the offspring with everything He, the Omniscient One, knows they will need to change things. If He "goes to" them and finds that they don't even care or that they are intent on doing the same ol' same ol', He just lets them have their choice.
 
KingJ said:
Agreed.....babies go to be with God and there is no sin with God ... so babies have no sin.
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The only way a baby can have no sin is if the Holy Spirit would come upon a woman and then give birth to that child.
Even when we were still in our sins, God gave us life and raised us up together, and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ!!

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
 
CCW95A said:
The only way a baby can have no sin is if the Holy Spirit would come upon a woman and then give birth to that child.
Even when we were still in our sins, God gave us life and raised us up together, and made us sit together in Heavenly places in Christ!!

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
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Where do we find your comment in the Bible................

"The only way a baby can have no sin is if the Holy Spirit would come upon a woman and then give birth to that child.".
 
Major said:
Where do we find your comment in the Bible................

"The only way a baby can have no sin is if the Holy Spirit would come upon a woman and then give birth to that child.".
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Did not Jesus come into the world this way?
 
CCW95A said:
Did Jesus come into the world this way?
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That baby was the Son of God incarnate. He was sinless BEFORE His incarnation, after it and all through His life.

Kings question was......" So now babies that die don't go to heaven?"

While I understand what you are saying, it really does not speak to his comment.
 
Major said:
That baby was the Son of God incarnate. He was sinless BEFORE His incarnation, after it and all through His life.

Kings question was......" So now babies that die don't go to heaven?"

While I understand what you are saying, it really does not speak to his comment.
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While we know everybody dies who is born on planet earth, and every person found in the Kingdom of God will have had the blood of Jesus Christ applied to them, no matter what age they come into his Kingdom. Some would think infants are sinless while in the womb, which I do not believe is the case. The life of the flesh is in the blood, and the blood comes from the father not the mother. Being born of the Holy Spirit would be the only way for one to be born without sin. This is what actually happens when someone becomes born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Christ now is our new life who is sinless in us. All children who do not fully comprehend the difference between right and wrong go to be with the Lord if they die young.
 
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OK - I don't want to enter this argument, really - but where does it say, in scripture, all babies go to heaven? And CW, I have real empathy for you because you are presenting as a politician who won't kiss babies (grin). I would like to think all babies go to heaven and afterall Jesus did say "let the children come to me". Billy Joel swiped an old homily, " only the good die young." If there wasn't a grain of truth, someone would have run over Hitler's mother when she was pregnant. I don't know where babies go when they die, but I hope heaven.
 
Major said:
And the Catholic church has been wrong for almost 2000 years in their practice of infant baptism.

A sinner must make a conscious choice to accept the Lord Jesus THEN be baptized which validates his choice.

I must disagree with your comment of........
" Protestants interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus removed the guilt of original sin from us the instant that it passed to us when he stepped in between it and Adam and Eve in promising to take the guilt upon Himself at Calvary."

All humans suffer the consequence of Adam’s sin (Rom. 5:12). And as a result of Christ’s atoning death, and our obedience to him (Rom. 6:17-18), we are “reckoned” as righteous before God (Rom. 4:5). In a manner of speaking, his perfect sacrifice was “credited to our account”.
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I only disagree with you on this point, for just as the OT sinners were saved by grace (not by works of the sacrificial system) looking forward to the promise of the cross and we by looking back to it, the condemnation that passed to us from Adam was instantly removed when Jesus stepped in and promised to be our Savior.
 
If someone (babies) have not consciously sinned, they would still have original sin taint. Which one could assume was removed by physical death. They would have to be considered "righteous", right?
 
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