Pisteuo, the Greek word used148 times in the NT for the verb form of the Greek word and noun Pistis. Pistis is used 145 times in the NT. I would like to discuss if the church as a whole really understands what the true meaning of Pisteuo is. The Greek definition (Vines) " A personal surrender to Him (our lives) and a life inspired by such surrender. Straight forward definition but doesn't seem to be taught in the church as the act of Faith that starts, maintains, and completes the covenant relationship that Christ prepared for the called out ones on the cross. Any comments on why this is? In Christ, Jay.
pisteuo
- Thread starter faither
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Hello faither;
Thank you for sharing an interesting thread. I have a comment and question.
I believe both terms when researched deeper are used almost double for each word in so many variable ways in the New Testament, however, good sound Biblical teaching and preaching should always arrive at the core definitions of Pisteuo and Pistis.
What is your personal experience with the straightforward definition of these words not being taught, or preached as the Act of Faith? I'm really interested in knowing your witness or view to this in today's Church.
God bless you, brother.
Bob
Thank you for sharing an interesting thread. I have a comment and question.
I believe both terms when researched deeper are used almost double for each word in so many variable ways in the New Testament, however, good sound Biblical teaching and preaching should always arrive at the core definitions of Pisteuo and Pistis.
What is your personal experience with the straightforward definition of these words not being taught, or preached as the Act of Faith? I'm really interested in knowing your witness or view to this in today's Church.
God bless you, brother.
Bob
Hi Bob,
First i would like to make an amends to the part of the other thread that didn't align with the rules here. I'm guessing it was the statement where i said i didn't think there were very many in the state i was referring to. I should have quoted the scripture Mat 7:14 where it states narrow is the gate and few find it.
The best way to understand and see the problem in the pulpits concerning Pisteuo is simply to have the actual experience. When one has the experience the eyes and heart open to a new reality. this reality not only gives discernment and insight into ourselves, but also gives discernment a insight into everything around you. In 38 years of living in this state of being, I've only known of one bible teacher that got it right. I know this only because of having the experience first.
If your interested, i can lay out for you how the church has lost the true meaning of Faith , specifically the verb form Pisteuo.
jay
Good morning, faither;
Thank you for your good post and articulating what you're saying. I understand, Jay.
First, God bless you for residing in LB for 38 years. My wife and I have resided in the SF Bay Area for 38 years. Prior to that I grew up in San Diego where I received my grounding as a Christian babe. I have a good memory and remember believing every sermon or lesson by the pastor or teacher. With all love and respect to them, as I grew in my discipleship and ministry, I developed questions from a past sermon or Bible study, in particular to what you are sharing.
Nothing beats hard knocks experience in our walk with Jesus, aside from sharing our story. I Believe this prepares us for the narrow gate.
I would say Christian Forum Site is comprised of seasoned Christians and for that I'm still learning. For the most part we have enjoyed good civil and open fellowship here. (From time to time, one or two may stray but the other 99 remain in fellowship.)
Two reasons; Jesus teaches us, “Those who have an ear to hear let them hear” 7 times in Revelation, 3 times in Matthew, 3 times in Mark and 2 times in Luke. The other is receiving what a brother or sister is sharing in a thread or post.
I (we) are interested in you sharing your experience and how the Church has lost the true meaning of Faith.
God bless you, faither, keep writing.
Bob
My dear brother, it is an excellent message and is the basic of our faith. It is great to see you posting again here.
As for the "message".......the fact that a person trusts Jesus means that obedience results from trust/faith. Now, such a distinction is extremely important because: our salvation is rooted in trust/believe and NOT obedience. It is the confusion of this point that results in legalism and pharisaism!
Thanks major, it's been a long time.
I understand that obedience comes from Him inside, not me doing it. If i'm continually surrendering my life to Him "pisteuo" and living this life as if it's not mine but His now to the best of my ability, the biblical Christian will appear so to speak.
I understand that obedience comes from Him inside, not me doing it. If i'm continually surrendering my life to Him "pisteuo" and living this life as if it's not mine but His now to the best of my ability, the biblical Christian will appear so to speak.
Agreed. Christ living through us is the goal.
Hi Bob,
Following up a little on your post here.
I grew up in long beach for 28 years, then moved to southern Oregon for a few years then moved to the mid west and have been here or abouts for 30+ years. I've moved 28 times in my life so far.
I've been trying to carry this message of what i consider to be the true act of faithing that saves. Started 30 years ago in the discussion sites only to be pummeled beyond recognition. I can count on one hand the people who agreed with it. You can imagine my surprise when what seemed like more than a few agreed with what i was trying to communicate here. Is that one of the rules now that there no disagreeing with each other,lol.
I think you and i can agree that there is a big problem in the churches today thinking "just believing" equals salvation in Christ.
In my dream church, when one called out by the Father entered, i would direct them to a repentant act, such as the change of direction from theirs life to the door of my building. Then, i would simply tell them that nothing in here can be theirs until they start the journey of Faith. Which as ive described in the Pisteuo threads is a continually surrendered life, and a life inspired by such surrender. Nothing God has said, done, or has promised can be theirs until they've at least started this mandated part of the salvation journey. And even then won't be theirs until He accepts the surrendered life.
Without possibly breaking a rule explaining how the salvation process is done in the churches today, what do you think Bob? do you think as i do that the true understanding of how the application of faithing is understood is lost ?
Thanks again for not pummeling me lol.
jay
Hello "faither;"
I just figured it out, you're a "faith 'er." I also thought I read somewhere you had lived in LB for 38 years?
I blue and red - lighted your post where it hones in to the teaching of pisteuo.
In today's Church there exist serious areas that have become misunderstood and lost.
I think of the charges Jesus had to five of the seven Churches in Revelation 2 and 3 that impact pisteuo.
At Ephesus in Revelation 2:4, 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
At Pergamum in Revelation 2:14, 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam,
At Thyatira in Revelation 2:20, 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
At Sardis in Revelation 3:1b, “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
At Laodicea in Revelation 3:16, 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
These charges weren't just aimed at the Churches in Revelation but reflect in today's times. We need to do a self check in our Churches, however, the perspective I personally receive in Revelation 2 and 3 is how patient Jesus is, to all of us.
Each of our Churches has broken spirits but are also blessed with strong spirits. The strong spirits take Jesus' teachings to the next level by emulating God's Agape Love, Pisteuo Faith Building, Patience Endurance and Building Up each other.
I also dream of a perfect Church but the Bible teaches the Church will be perfected through Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:14, 14 and above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness. - ASV
God bless everyone.
Bob
Hi Bob,
In my understanding it all depends on the "call of the Father", nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them, the called out ones.
The mentioned the patience of Jesus, but i think it's the patience of the Father that we depend on the most. There could come a day when it's one day to late, and He just lets us have what we choose.
He's looking for those who will choose a life of Pisteuo, A continually surrendered life to His son Jesus the anointed messiah.
jay
Good morning, faither;
I agree with you, "the call of the Father." "The calling" is a true appointment from God. I'll add, whereas "led to" is the prompting of the Holy Spirit, for example, the individual prays and then makes a personal decision. There is a distinction.
You brought up John 14:6. I'm curious and interested in knowing, how does this tie in to our discussion?
"The patience of the Father is what we depend on the most." I agree with you, faither.
It's my intention to point out the patience of Christ which is one of the critical interpretations in His messages to the Churches, and very important, how these disciplines tie in with pisteuo.
"Choosing a life of pisteuo, a continued surrender life to His Son Jesus the Anointed Messiah." This has already been established in our discussion. I feel we're on the same page, faither.
God bless you, brother.
Bob
Faith and faithing, most of us have never heard the word faithing before.
In the original Greek texts we have the word "Pistis" , where we get our English word "Faith". Pistis is used 245 times in the NT.
Pistis, has a corresponding verb, "pisteuo." Pisteuo is used 248 times in the NT.
The problem occures when the translators need a corresponding verb to our English word Faith like the Greek does for Pistis. The English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun Faith like the Greek does.
So, the translators forced to choose a word to translate pisteuo didn't have the words they needed to correctly communicate pisteuo. Those words that should have been available to the translators are the words faithe, faither, and faithing.
Nor because those words are not in the English language, and the English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun Faith like the Greek does, they had to choose words that would come close. They chose the words believe, believer, and believing.
The problem with choosing those words are that pisteuo, or NT saving Faith is an act, "based upon a belief," sustained by confidence. Believing is a part of NT saving Faith, but taken on it's own is error.
The Vines Greek dictionary gives us the definition, " pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."
The Strong's gives the disclaimer," pisteuo means NOT just to believe."
With this ground work laid out, lets talk about how pisteuo is applied.
J
The words believe, believer, and believing, are not corresponding verbs to the noun Faith like in the Greek, they are corresponding verbs to the noun"belief" which is different than what the Greek texts are communicating to us.
Here is the salvation process the way i understand it, using saving Faith, pisteuo correctly.
I'll use the words "gate" and "steps" for a framework for this. I'm not saying there are accual gates or steps.
These are the things that must happen in our salvation journey, and must happen in the correct order.
Step1: The world or field.
A) Here Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
B) The drawing of the Father starts here.
C) We are called out to be saints here.
D) A small group of people are called out from among a larger group that aren't called.
E) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
F) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet.
G) No prayer or worship acceptable here yet.
H) repentance, or the turning from our way to the way of the caller starts here.
I) At this beginning stage , the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.
Step 2: Gate 1 or the altar.
A) First act of pisteuo happens here, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
B) A genuine surrendered life and will are offered her, with life decisions that support such surrender.
C) Here, the offering or surrendered life is deemed genuine or not by Christ.
D) No saving Faith yet at this point.
E) Prayer and worship are not acceptable yet, not His without His Spirit.
F) Alternative paths are formed at this point to go over or around the alter to no avail, (the believe and recieve theology).
Step 3: Parable of the sower or the testing ground.
A) Christ Himself is the seed, the called out ones are the soil.
B) This stage is a proving or testing ground.
C) The surrendered life is put on the altar to be tested here.
D) Decisions are made here that support the fact we really have turned over our life and will to God.
E) 3 of the 4 soils will fail here.
F) For one soil, Christ is being formed in his heart by faithing. "pisteuo"
G) A grafting process begins here.
H) no prayer or worship acceptable here yet.
I) Gods paradoxical truths start to form here.
Step 4: Gate 2 or the accepted sacrifice.
A) Here , the one soils surrendered life and will has been accepted.
B) The Spirit of Christ is sealed into us here, making us a temple of the Holy Spirit.
C) For the first time, He is in us, and we are in Him.
D) A spiritual awakening happens here.
E) Gods nature begins to flow.
F) The kind of giving that can't be imitated starts here.
G) Prayer and worship are acceptable here now.
H) Praying without ceasing starts here.
I) The mind of Christ and His presence begins to take hold.
J) A called out one, the accepted one soil can only go through this gate one time.
Step5: The product.
A) Here God is producing "faithers", that are responding with "saving faith."
B) Here, the precondition has been met.
C) Here, a continual state of surrendering our lives to Him will consume us.
D) Here is not a destination.
E) We are i a continual state of being perfected here.
F) We should expect the nature of Christ and His word to continuously flow through us.
G) Here, we are His , and He is ours. We are in a state where it's harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
H) Here, Rom 7:14-21 is in effect. we have been separated from our sinful nature, by Grace through pisteuo.
The response to the call of the Father is simple, "A personal surrender to Him. and a life inspired by such surrender."
I say that because many read this a say it's to complicated. I don't intend it to be. It's kind of like looking under the hood of a car. Turning the key to start it is simple, understanding how it runs is a deeper subject, and why i posted this to share.
For those 3 that failed, as long as the Father continues to call a person, they can begin this process again.
J
I'll use the words "gate" and "steps" for a framework for this. I'm not saying there are accual gates or steps.
These are the things that must happen in our salvation journey, and must happen in the correct order.
Step1: The world or field.
A) Here Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
B) The drawing of the Father starts here.
C) We are called out to be saints here.
D) A small group of people are called out from among a larger group that aren't called.
E) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
F) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet.
G) No prayer or worship acceptable here yet.
H) repentance, or the turning from our way to the way of the caller starts here.
I) At this beginning stage , the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.
Step 2: Gate 1 or the altar.
A) First act of pisteuo happens here, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
B) A genuine surrendered life and will are offered her, with life decisions that support such surrender.
C) Here, the offering or surrendered life is deemed genuine or not by Christ.
D) No saving Faith yet at this point.
E) Prayer and worship are not acceptable yet, not His without His Spirit.
F) Alternative paths are formed at this point to go over or around the alter to no avail, (the believe and recieve theology).
Step 3: Parable of the sower or the testing ground.
A) Christ Himself is the seed, the called out ones are the soil.
B) This stage is a proving or testing ground.
C) The surrendered life is put on the altar to be tested here.
D) Decisions are made here that support the fact we really have turned over our life and will to God.
E) 3 of the 4 soils will fail here.
F) For one soil, Christ is being formed in his heart by faithing. "pisteuo"
G) A grafting process begins here.
H) no prayer or worship acceptable here yet.
I) Gods paradoxical truths start to form here.
Step 4: Gate 2 or the accepted sacrifice.
A) Here , the one soils surrendered life and will has been accepted.
B) The Spirit of Christ is sealed into us here, making us a temple of the Holy Spirit.
C) For the first time, He is in us, and we are in Him.
D) A spiritual awakening happens here.
E) Gods nature begins to flow.
F) The kind of giving that can't be imitated starts here.
G) Prayer and worship are acceptable here now.
H) Praying without ceasing starts here.
I) The mind of Christ and His presence begins to take hold.
J) A called out one, the accepted one soil can only go through this gate one time.
Step5: The product.
A) Here God is producing "faithers", that are responding with "saving faith."
B) Here, the precondition has been met.
C) Here, a continual state of surrendering our lives to Him will consume us.
D) Here is not a destination.
E) We are i a continual state of being perfected here.
F) We should expect the nature of Christ and His word to continuously flow through us.
G) Here, we are His , and He is ours. We are in a state where it's harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
H) Here, Rom 7:14-21 is in effect. we have been separated from our sinful nature, by Grace through pisteuo.
The response to the call of the Father is simple, "A personal surrender to Him. and a life inspired by such surrender."
I say that because many read this a say it's to complicated. I don't intend it to be. It's kind of like looking under the hood of a car. Turning the key to start it is simple, understanding how it runs is a deeper subject, and why i posted this to share.
For those 3 that failed, as long as the Father continues to call a person, they can begin this process again.
J
Hello faither;
By chance was your sharing on the discipline of Pisteuo from Dr. Gene Scott?
He's the one that i learned about pisteuo from. But that piece of the puzzle added to my experience, started a 35 years burning desire to know what happened, and how it happened. He is the only one, in my life, that I've ever heard teach about pisteuo correctly. Being given that information and desire, i feel truly like the watchman that must decide to warn others or not. This is me warning others.
Not sure i would call it a discipline, it's just the correct application of Faith towards Christ.
I don't know you from Adam Bob, but there's something special about you. For 35 years i've waited for someone exposed to this understanding to simply ask the right question. You just asked one of them, thank you.
J
I should disclose this to you Bob and the others, Dr. Gene Scott taught about Faith and faithing into depths never seen before. He taught the A, B, C, s of Faith.
An act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. That teaching was the puzzle piece that allowed me to connect the "Vines" Greek definition of pisteuo to the salvation process. And like i said before, i had the experience first, accidentally by my perspective. So i was kind of learning about this backwards so to speak.
The understanding about pisteuo and the Vines definition of pisteuo are my understandings. The salvation process, my understanding, I look at it like this. Jesus was the first goer, then, there was a second goer, a third, and so on. I was blessed in that with Dr. Scott devoting his life to the scriptures like never seen before, he was able to get a good view of that first goer that is ahead.
My blessing is that God gave me a gift, and at the same time was given the honor of standing on the shoulders of Dr. Scott. So i don't want to say this teaching is by Dr. Scott if it's not. Hope this clarifies that.
J