Poll on hell

[Abdicate]

I submit that sleep does not mean a metaphor. There is no scripture that states otherwise. I see no reason to believe that death is any different in the NT than the OT...

Job 10:18-22 NIV “Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. 19If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! 20Are not my few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy 21before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and utter darkness, 22to the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness.”
Job 14:10-15 NIV But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. 11As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep. 13“If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. 15You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.
Psa 6:4-5 NIV Turn, Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psa 30:9 NIV "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Psa 88:9-12 NIV my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, Lord, every day; I spread out my hands to you. 10Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? 11Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ? 12Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Isa 38:18 NIV For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness
Isa 53:12 NIV Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

WARNING: Soul Sleep is false doctrine and banned on this forum. Please cease immediately.

http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/topics-which-may-not-be-discussed.39785/

 

[Euphemia]

Of course breath and wind doesn't have a shape or body. God the Father does not obtain a body, because the Father is a spirit. Our spirits are but breath and wind because God breathed the breath of life into us. When you study scripture always go to the Hebrew and Greek. As you can see in John 3:8, "pneuma" is used both for wind and spirit..http://biblehub.com/text/john/3-8.htm

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."



In order to understand the passage correctly, you must expand on its context.

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.



God is simple, and his message is simple. Sleep is just that, it is sleep.

Job 14:12 so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

Psalm 13:3 NIV Look on me and answer, LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

Matt 9:23-24 When Jesus entered the synagogue leader’s house and saw the noisy crowd and people playing pipes, 24he said, “Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him.

Acts 7:54-60 NIV When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

It is because man is simple that the metaphor for death is "sleep".

 

[Euphemia]

God the Father is a spirit being because He is the origin of life. The reason that we die is because God takes the breath of life out of us and then gives it back at the first resurrection. How do we live with God in heaven without the breath of life. How does that work?

When our born again spirits leave our bodies, we stop breathing. Our spirits go immediately to heaven.

 

[Major]

You guys seem to be flirting with a few forbidden topics.
The incident of Lazarus and the rich man is interesting, yet I have never yet read any comment on the fact that the only one crying out for water is that one rich man. If the traditional picture of hell was correct, I would expect that there would be lots and lots of anguished souls all crying out for some water. So, if it is just a parable, OK, but if it was a cameo of life in the pit then it is suggestive of eternal isolation (solitary confinement)...thoughts?

I thought so as well and was surprised even at the name of the thread........"Poll on Hell".

IMO the only reason why there are 3 people named is because they are the only ones who matter in the story.

Is Luke 16 a parabel??? NO!

Is the lake of fire isolation and torments eternally???? IMO, YES!

Psalm 9:17 WARNS...
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

Now if "hell" only means the grave, then this Scripture makes absolutely no sense at all, because the righteous and the wicked would go to the SAME place. Why would God say that the wicked are going to Hell, if the righteous are going to the same place? Obviously, "hell" (Hebrew: Sheol) means much more.
We can infer that the wicked are going to be punished in eternity. This is clearly evidenced by other Scriptures, such as Matthew 25:46.........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

 

[Major]

Someone else said that? Who? It's in Luke 16:24. Wind and breath is translated spirit in Hebrew and Greek. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.

Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Man is not a spirit, rather he has a spirit.

Genesis 2:7......
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,
and man became a living soul".

Seems to me that is saying God gave man a physical , psychological and SPIRITUAL makeup. We have built into us the capacity to have a relationship with God because we are spirtual as is He. Is n't that what seperates us from everything else????

 

[ATP]

Hades is not the grave from what I can see, remember Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire, so what is death then. Hades are temp hell for unbelievers before judgement occurs. Our you think not?

Sheol is OT, Sheol is translated Hades in the NT. Both refer to "grave" or the "realm of the dead".

I agree with Euphemia, our earthly bodies may die, the spirit within is goes on forever.

What are your thoughts on post 376.

Something else, how did the rich man recognise both Lazarus and Abraham if they were only a wind like spirit. No, they must look like they did on earth, Abraham also recognised the rich man as he was in Hades, so he surely looked like he used to. So all three must have received bodies looking like is used to be on earth, and yet, different.

Because it was only a story about the demise of the priesthood.

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

WARNING: Soul Sleep is false doctrine and banned on this forum. Please cease immediately.

http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/topics-which-may-not-be-discussed.39785/

Yes, let's all stop learning and asking questions about scripture. That is a no no.

It is because man is simple that the metaphor for death is "sleep". When our born again spirits leave our bodies, we stop breathing. Our spirits go immediately to heaven.

What are your thoughts on post 376.

Is Lu parabel??? NO!

Again, why didn't Luke use Gehenna or the Lake of Fire in his story then? Since spirits are considered breath and wind, how does breath and wind have a finger and a tongue?

We can infer that the wicked are going to be punished in eternity. This is clearly evidenced by other Scriptures, such as .........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I believe he was using picture language similar too..

Dan 12:2 / Isa 66:24 SCRIPT

The "worms" are mentioned in connection with the dead bodies, because they hasten the decomposition and represent the ignominy of corpses deprived of burial (Jer 25:33; Is 14:11; Job 7:5; 17:14; Acts 12:23). The figure of the fire that is not quenched is used frequently in Scripture to signify a fire that consumes (Ezek 20:47-48) and reduces to nothing (Am 5:5-6; Matt 3:12).

The Hebrew term deraon translated "contempt" also appears in Isaiah 66:24 in which it is translated "loathsome". The image of an unquencheable fire is simply designed to convey the thought of being completely burned up or consumed. It has nothing to do with the everlasting punishment of immortal souls. The passage speaks clearly of "dead bodies" which are consumed and not of immortal souls which are tormented eternally.

Isa 66:24 NIV "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome (deraon) to all mankind."

Dan 12:2 NIV Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt (deraon).

- ATP

 

[ModeratorTeam]

Due to the poor behavior taking place in this thread in the past 3 or 4 pages, this thread is being halted at this point. If the original thread starter wishes to discuss options in re-opening this thread, please PM any Moderator.






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