Whether there is a rapture or not, it's not in my immediate mind as it once was. My focus is on the here and now and doing God's will. One observation that stands out for me is where in the bible does God ever excuse believers from not going through, or witnessing his judgement? Noah, Lot, the Exodus were examples of God's judgement being unleashed on the wicked, yet the only people saved were those who followed and obeyed God. Believers will endure the tribulation period as well, but those with faithful obedience to the Lord will be protected from his wrath. And if I have to suffer because of my believes, God give me strength. If Jesus had to suffer for us, why shouldn't we have to suffer for him? If I am miraculously taken away pre, mid, post, amen then. Point is, always be prepared, always be prepared.
Pre-mid-post Trib And Why? (scriptural Evidence)
- Thread starter Servant in San Jose
- Start date
RYAN! It has been some time since we have heard from you. Good to hear from you again!
Are you well?
To your concern though, wasn't the Red Sea a picture of God delivering His people FROM the certain death from Pharoh?
Did't God remove Noah and ALL the saved before His judgment fell on the earth?
Didn't God do the same with Lot?
Those are types or pictures where God saved His chosen before tribulation and He will do the same thing at the Rapture.
Remember........the Tribulation is all about the nation of Israel NOT the church of believers.
I agree with you my friend.
Rev. 4 and 5 are what is called "parenthetical". They give a description of events which are running along with the chronological order of the Revelation of Jesus.
The scene in Rev. 4 is the throne room of God and the revelation of Christ as the Lion.
Then Rev. 5 is the picture of the Lamb of God.
Rev. 6 then returns to that order with the explination of events takes place on the earth.
Hi Major, interesting concept - how do you get to that?
Thanks for the kind welcome back. All is well, just learning more about our Lord everyday. Noah was blameless and righteous among his people of the time and found favor with God. He was commanded to build the Ark over a 120 year period. And what did Noah do? Genesis 6:22 " Noah did everything just as God commanded him." Noah and his family were sheltered in the Ark. But come on, how pleasant of an experience was it for them? It sure wasn't the ocean liners of today!
Lot, now this was an interesting character. He was so worried about keeping the angels safe, he even offered his daughters to the wicked people of Sodom to keep them from raping the angels. In Genesis 19 we see that God still found favor in Lot for him to be saved, but he practically had to be dragged out of that place.
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”
The Israelites in Egypt were spared during Passover because they obeyed the Lord as in Genesis 12. 12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.
Exodus 14 descibes the parting of the Red Sea and saving his choosen people supernaturally. The point I'm making is the people were all physically there to experience it, but not necessarily be on the receiving end of his judgement. By God's grace and mercy, he will save us from his judgements. But from the examples here, the Lord still had his people physically there when imparting judgement. They were just supernaturally protected by God's hand. But we have to walk the talk and be obedient to him to be spared.
Lot, now this was an interesting character. He was so worried about keeping the angels safe, he even offered his daughters to the wicked people of Sodom to keep them from raping the angels. In Genesis 19 we see that God still found favor in Lot for him to be saved, but he practically had to be dragged out of that place.
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”
The Israelites in Egypt were spared during Passover because they obeyed the Lord as in Genesis 12. 12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.
Exodus 14 descibes the parting of the Red Sea and saving his choosen people supernaturally. The point I'm making is the people were all physically there to experience it, but not necessarily be on the receiving end of his judgement. By God's grace and mercy, he will save us from his judgements. But from the examples here, the Lord still had his people physically there when imparting judgement. They were just supernaturally protected by God's hand. But we have to walk the talk and be obedient to him to be spared.
Not my concept Kevin, just allowing the Scriptures to explain themselves.
In Jeremiah 30:7 the tribulation is considered from the nation Israel’s point of view and is called "the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble." It is a unique time of trouble ("none is like it") just as our Lord said in Matthew 24:21.
Rom. 11:25-29
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,“The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” 27 “And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable,"
It is apparent from the above Scripturethat God is not finished with Israel. Paul tells us that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. This is so the Gentiles can be included in the covenantal faithfulness of God in his redemptive work. This was prophesied in Gen. 12:3 and repeated in Ga;. 3:8. In those two verses, God says that in Abraham all the nations will be blessed. Paul quotes Gen. 12:3 in Galatians and calls it the gospel!
Is God finished with Israel?
Amillennialists, those who reject the idea of a future millennium of Christ reigning on earth in Jerusalem, say yes. In fact, they believe all Israel's promises were fulfilled at the cross when Jesus died and that a new set of promises began with the church begining on Pentecost. This view has serious weaknesses. It is also called Replacement Theology.
The church is the church and Israel is Israel and the church has not replaced Israel.
That is THE reason for the Rapture IMHO. The church is removed and then God will deal with Israel and that is called the Tribulation Period.
Daniel chapter 11 and 12 and Ezekiel 37-39 are ecential in end time escotology.
Ryan.......my friend, you are "forceing" those examples.
That is cafiteria theology and it just will not hold water. It makes no differance how uncomtable Noah was or wasn't.
WE can not make the Scriptures say what we want them to say.
Consider Rom. 1:18,
""For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" .
The wrath of God is judment and that verse tells us who it will be falling on. That is why the church must be Raptured.
1 Thes 5:9 ..........
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
You know as a kid I used to read these little booklets by Hal Lindsay and they were essentially a little commentary on each chapter and verse and being absolutely mesmerized by them. I remember dreaming about being at Armageddon and fighting for the Lord against the armies of Russia as the little booklets explained that was the country that would rise up against Israel. Then during the last 15 years I ventured onto a site called RaptureReady and read their weekly commentary and I could have sworn the pre-trib was set in stone. I would dream I purposely rejected Jesus as my Saviour just so that I wouldn't get raptured and I would then triumphantly lead "Tribulation Saints" through the perils of danger and onwards to Armageddon and the Lord's subsequent victory over the forces of evil. (Sigh) so many wasted dreams for naught.
Then I became saved and some of my thoughts and believes have been changed and challenged. To be honest, little thought has been given about this topic until I read this thread and thought I would get in on the action with not a real true understanding of the book of Revelations because some of my believes have been challenged. I immediately quoted a couple of examples from Genesis of how God has poured out his judgement and thinking we would have to be physically there. It makes sense to me. Is it supported by scripture? Maybe. But one of the resources that I access to glean information from, I watched the first 50 minutes or so, and I guarantee you, it won't be from the perspective you are used to seeing it from. I admit, I only watched the first 50 minutes of the video, but I can see it will be nothing, if not anything, thought provoking. So if you have the time (hour and 15 minutes, although the first 10 minutes is not the teaching) to watch part 1 of the Introduction to Revelations, go for it. I haven't watched the other videos, so can't give you any feedback. Here's the link: http://elshaddaiministries.us/audio/hiddentreasures/index.html You can also download the notes and slides. Completely free
This topic is very complex and I can see how tremendous emotions and feelings can bubble to the surface. Rightfully so, we are talking about our eternity and the remaining days, months, years, decades we have left. And to try and support our position within the confines of a thread on this board, when there are 10 or more different schools of thought each chiming in with their own positions, then one word taken out of context then mud slinging occurs then cries of blasphemy. I maybe shouldn't comment on a topic I have little understanding of, but if you want to PM me after you watch the video and discuss, I would be more then happy to discuss after I watch the first video myself. And if I feel the need to further comment on here, I will. God bless and Shalom
Then I became saved and some of my thoughts and believes have been changed and challenged. To be honest, little thought has been given about this topic until I read this thread and thought I would get in on the action with not a real true understanding of the book of Revelations because some of my believes have been challenged. I immediately quoted a couple of examples from Genesis of how God has poured out his judgement and thinking we would have to be physically there. It makes sense to me. Is it supported by scripture? Maybe. But one of the resources that I access to glean information from, I watched the first 50 minutes or so, and I guarantee you, it won't be from the perspective you are used to seeing it from. I admit, I only watched the first 50 minutes of the video, but I can see it will be nothing, if not anything, thought provoking. So if you have the time (hour and 15 minutes, although the first 10 minutes is not the teaching) to watch part 1 of the Introduction to Revelations, go for it. I haven't watched the other videos, so can't give you any feedback. Here's the link: http://elshaddaiministries.us/audio/hiddentreasures/index.html You can also download the notes and slides. Completely free
This topic is very complex and I can see how tremendous emotions and feelings can bubble to the surface. Rightfully so, we are talking about our eternity and the remaining days, months, years, decades we have left. And to try and support our position within the confines of a thread on this board, when there are 10 or more different schools of thought each chiming in with their own positions, then one word taken out of context then mud slinging occurs then cries of blasphemy. I maybe shouldn't comment on a topic I have little understanding of, but if you want to PM me after you watch the video and discuss, I would be more then happy to discuss after I watch the first video myself. And if I feel the need to further comment on here, I will. God bless and Shalom
I have this confidence in the risen Lord Jesus Christ: regardless of what the ultimate truth is, I will, by His Grace, be a partaker in eternal life. Possibly I'll pass on before these things happen, in the which case I'll have worried over nothing. If I adhere to a *trib understanding and it turns out to be ?trib, then I don't think I'll get stood with my face in the corner like a naughty little boy.
Kevin, it is always a blessing to speak with you and this is no exception!
God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.
The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. IMO, the actions during this event will be centered in the Middle East but will be felt and experienced world wide.
This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom.The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Ezekiel 38:8 continues....
"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel.
In Ezekiel 39:2-4 God says,
"And I will turn thee (Magog) back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee …."
Ezekiel 39:9-10 says,
"And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons ... seven years: So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire ...."
Matthew 24:9 which says,
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye (Israelites) shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
I hope this allows you to see why I made the comment that the Tribulation is about Israel not the church. This is exactly why I think the church must be removed at the Rapture.
But this is just me sayn.
Hi Major,
Thanks, I never actually considered what you have proposed. It is definitely worth more study (from my side).
It is always a blessing speaking to you too.
I always thought the Ezekiel prophecies were before the actual tribulation because of the seven year clean up afterwards. Anyway - you have provoked some thought within me and I will study these scriptures some more.
God bless
I agree with you about Ezk. Scriptures.
I for one believe that the 1st Gog and Magog will be the reason for a 7 year peace treaty. Excellant point !
The reality is that the 1 st Gog & Magog is centered in THE LAND of Israel. Again then we see that the Jew is the center of the action.
I have given this some thought and maybe the events still to unfold which were prophesied in the OT will run parallel (Tribulation together with the church) to each other and not in a linear sequence (rapture of church and then the tribulation of the Jews). Just a thought. Definitely requires much more study on my behalf.
If we look at the current events in the Middle East, it would be quire easy for the battle of Gog and Magog to begin at any time. America has threatened to withdraw support of Israel if they attack Iran before the American election - which would support scripture in that no nation comes to Israels aid in this time. We will have to wait and see what will unfold. Something would need to take place to draw Gog (Russia) and the rest of the nations against Israel. Maybe a massive attack on Iran, using weapons of mass destruction, would be enough to draw Russia into the attack especially if America has withdrawn military backup - one can only speculate.
We will have to wait and see, but if we do see this battle in our lifetimes it will change the face of the world forever.
Areed!
It is very easy for some to "force" prophecy into the Scriptures and I am very glad you are allowing events to unfold.
I absolutly agree that the 1st Gog and Magog is imminant. I do not for a second think that our present administration will support Israel in a war. IF we look at Ezek. 38 very carefully we can see that it is God Himself who draws Gog into the Promised Land and IT IS GOD WHO DESTROYS THAT ARMY and it is NOT America.
I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet although my father was a pistol so I guess I am a son of a gun..............
I agree with you also on the Iran situation.
IF, (when) Israel attacks Iran over the nuclear program they possess, it seems to me that would present Russia (Gog) the perfect opportunity to come to the aid of their ally, Iran.
Only time will tell and God is in controle!!
Major, in reading your posts on this subject major, it seems to be the same evangelical view i've heard my whole life and used to believe.
i've since come to consider myself more of a reformed believer, not in every sense, but mostly.
i for one don't believe as you do what is said in rom 11 and it doesn't fit the rest of scripture.
Where it says "in so in this way all of israel will be saved" is making reference to the same way anyone else is saved and not referencing that all of the physical state of israel will be saved.
ANYONE who seeks God with their whole heart will find Him.
That said, i do believe that all 3 monotheistic religions will on a whole come to Christ and be the "Israel of God" spoken of in Gal 6:16
i believe that when Jesus mentions other sheep not of this fold, He is referring to muslims who will come to repentance and faith as a result of tribulation.
One thing i want to make clear is why i believe we will be here for the tribulation, if not for the great tribulation.
A tribulator is a board that is used for crushing ground wheat to powder and only powdered wheat can be used for making a "loaf" of bread. Any parts of wheat that have not been thoroughly ground will simply fall out of the bread in the oven. But it is in the oven the bread really comes together and then is suitable for eating.
The goal is to be one lump, one in Christ.
You cannot look at a pile of ground flour and distinguish one kernal of wheat from the next.
Tribulation makes the body exactly that. THE BODY.
ryan, i believe you and i may have some interesting ideas to share with one another.
Church time, i will add to this later.
Blessings
i've since come to consider myself more of a reformed believer, not in every sense, but mostly.
i for one don't believe as you do what is said in rom 11 and it doesn't fit the rest of scripture.
Where it says "in so in this way all of israel will be saved" is making reference to the same way anyone else is saved and not referencing that all of the physical state of israel will be saved.
ANYONE who seeks God with their whole heart will find Him.
That said, i do believe that all 3 monotheistic religions will on a whole come to Christ and be the "Israel of God" spoken of in Gal 6:16
i believe that when Jesus mentions other sheep not of this fold, He is referring to muslims who will come to repentance and faith as a result of tribulation.
One thing i want to make clear is why i believe we will be here for the tribulation, if not for the great tribulation.
A tribulator is a board that is used for crushing ground wheat to powder and only powdered wheat can be used for making a "loaf" of bread. Any parts of wheat that have not been thoroughly ground will simply fall out of the bread in the oven. But it is in the oven the bread really comes together and then is suitable for eating.
The goal is to be one lump, one in Christ.
You cannot look at a pile of ground flour and distinguish one kernal of wheat from the next.
Tribulation makes the body exactly that. THE BODY.
ryan, i believe you and i may have some interesting ideas to share with one another.
Church time, i will add to this later.
Blessings
Because i dont know anything that means, am i still a christian.
No problem Servant. If we all believed alike, there would be no need for web sites like this one.
But remember..........Religions can not come to Christ. Each single person must do that.
Let me clarify, when i say muslims i don't mean all muslims, just as paul doesn't mean all jews.