PvE - A Test of Faith

If the wheels were part of the Cherubs, it would be unnecessary to say that the spirit of the Cherubs was in the wheels also. Also, planes don't have spirits to share with their wheels. (Certainly, "spirit" here is not a reference to a soul, but to a shared trait between the Cherubs and what the wheels represents, causing the two to move in unison.)

I'm done with this discussion. Cherubs are human-like creatures with wings, but without wheels. Without a doubt. Claiming them to be jet planes is laughable.

As I said before *I* am not the one talking about the cherubim being jet planes. What I likened to a modern airstrike was the BATTLE David describes. The only things I know of the Cherubim is from the descriptions that come from the Bible. That such descriptions involve the ability to fly and be ridden on/in, used to launch weapons from, have wheels and retractable or foldable wings, canopies, some form of seating arrangement, involve loud noise, thick black clouds (or smoke), something that resembles coals of fire, etc. is all information we get from the Bible itself.
 

Colin Feener

Inactive
Understand Colin that you are saying many things but have no independent AUTHORITY or witness by which to claim them as TRUE. It is all just YOUR word and YOUR word alone. You cannot claim the authority of the written word because you have declared that what is written is not necessarily true but must be filtered and interpreted by those with special spiritual insight but have no proof or independent witness that you possess such special insight. There is only your unsubstantiated claim that you do.

Those in Christ do not bear witness of themselves but allow the written word of the Lord to independently bear witness of the truth for them.

The psalms, the prophets, and the bible itself does bar witness to what I say and wisdom from the bible does train you to speak the tongue of the Lord.
 
As I said before *I* am not the one talking about the cherubim being jet planes. What I likened to a modern airstrike was the BATTLE David describes. The only things I know of the Cherubim is from the descriptions that come from the Bible. That such descriptions involve the ability to fly and be ridden on/in, used to launch weapons from, have wheels and retractable or foldable wings, canopies, some form of seating arrangement, involve loud noise, thick black clouds (or smoke), something that resembles coals of fire, etc. is all information we get from the Bible itself.
Thank you yet again for clarifying my assessment of you. It is common courtesy when creating new topics, that you give your own opinion, but of course we know that will never happen. What exactly is your purpose and agenda on these forums? All you do is make a number of statements implying you believe in the natural conclusion , in this case that David saw modern day aircraft carrying out air strikes, yet you never give any direct answer as to what you believe yourself. I think you really do believe these things , but you are too scared to admit to it from fear of ridicule and mocking. We are all capable of reading and understanding what the Bible says, funny how you are the only one who is trying to push a different interpretation on us and then claiming that you are right, well you dont claim anything you just hide behind your standard replies and statements about just reading what it says in the Bible and its not you saying it. Another question you will not answer direct and continually avoid , is , why do you think that understanding prophecy correctly is important to ones salvation and entry into heaven?
 
Thank you yet again for clarifying my assessment of you. It is common courtesy when creating new topics, that you give your own opinion, but of course we know that will never happen. What exactly is your purpose and agenda on these forums? All you do is make a number of statements implying you believe in the natural conclusion , in this case that David saw modern day aircraft carrying out air strikes, yet you never give any direct answer as to what you believe yourself. I think you really do believe these things , but you are too scared to admit to it from fear of ridicule and mocking. We are all capable of reading and understanding what the Bible says, funny how you are the only one who is trying to push a different interpretation on us and then claiming that you are right, well you dont claim anything you just hide behind your standard replies and statements about just reading what it says in the Bible and its not you saying it. Another question you will not answer direct and continually avoid , is , why do you think that understanding prophecy correctly is important to ones salvation and entry into heaven?

Remember that question I asked you several postings ago?

"But tell me on what basis other than simple disbelief do you NOT believe the account and description of David as HE has told it??"

Is it safe to assume, from your continued avoidance and evasion of it that I will not be getting an answer to it?

People can see for themselves the things I have said and the things you have said. Let them judge between us for themselves whether or not your accusations are justified. But before you repeatedly ask for answers you already have it would pay you to answer the questions asked of YOU.

But my purpose here is to help people explore and ponder the written word of God FOR THEMSELVES and the nature of the faith and trust to which the Lord has called them. To understand FOR THEMSELVES the true nature of the reality they live in that the Lord Himself has revealed to them. To uphold the overriding and sole authority of the written word of the Lord to declare what is and what is not true in the matters it speaks to.

If, as some here contend, the word of churches, denominations, traditional teachings, and interpretations and theologies have greater authority than the written word of the Lord then we may as well all have remained Roman Catholic and Martin Luther could have saved himself a lot of trouble. We would all be doomed of course.

Basically my purpose here is to serve my Lord and bear witness of Christ and the truth of HIS word. To declare no other doctrine than the doctrine preached by the PERSONALLY APPOINTED Apostles and Prophets of my Lord and Saviour King lest I too be accursed by God according to Gal 1:8-9 or Jeremiah 23.

THIS is my purpose here. That and to enjoy the fellowship of those here who are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and to extend to those who come here seeking the truth, not only the actual truth but also the love, caring, encouragement, and embrace Christ has for them. I am a servant of Christ and I am here to serve Christ.

THAT is my purpose here .... what is your purpose here?
 
Remember that question I asked you several postings ago?

"But tell me on what basis other than simple disbelief do you NOT believe the account and description of David as HE has told it??"

Is it safe to assume, from your continued avoidance and evasion of it that I will not be getting an answer to it?

People can see for themselves the things I have said and the things you have said. Let them judge between us for themselves whether or not your accusations are justified. But before you repeatedly ask for answers you already have it would pay you to answer the questions asked of YOU.
I have not avoided it at all, I have given you this reply before.

Your logic is flawed , no where have I said I do not believe what is written in the Bible, no where have I disputed what David or anyone else has seen, said or done. WHat you are doing here is disgusting and despicable, that is accusing people of not believing the Bible because they do not agree with your interpretations.
 
I have not avoided it at all, I have given you this reply before.

Your logic is flawed , no where have I said I do not believe what is written in the Bible, no where have I disputed what David or anyone else has seen, said or done. WHat you are doing here is disgusting and despicable, that is accusing people of not believing the Bible because they do not agree with your interpretations.

I haven't accused you of anything, merely pointed out that you hadn't answered the question I had asked.

In my original post I pointed out what it is that King DAVID declared happened and HOW the Lord rescued him from his enemies. My words were:-

"It is worth checking a number of translations (I checked KJV, NIV, Darby's Literal, and the JPS). But paraphrased for ease of understanding, David's account of what HAPPENED goes something like this. Facing certain death he prayed to the Lord for deliverence from his enemies. Next thing the ground and the very air shook violently. There was smoke and consuming fire streaming out and he saw the Lord descending out of the sky. Under His feet was something dark. He then mounted a thing the Hebrews called a "cherub" (We are still uncertain exactly what a "cherub" is but we know from the OT that it can fly and be ridden on/in). Riding in/on the Cherub the Lord is visibly seen flying to and fro through the sky above accompanied by thunderously loud noise and dark, thick clouds and glowing fire and bright light. As He flies through the sky He is decimating David's enemies with "arrows" (basically anything that resembles an arrow and flies through the air, it does not have to be an actual arrow) and something that looks like lightning. No mention is made of a bow however.In the process large volumes of water are displaced from bodies of water and large chunks of land ripped open.

While still airborne the Lord then reached down and plucked David up from where he was and took him elsewhere and deposited him in a large (presumably open) place of safety.

This is what David declares happened AND it is written in the pages of the word of God. Sounds kinda like a modern day military airstrike and extraction doesn't it?

I added the last sentence to show that it was the BATTLE SCENE I likened to a modern day airstrike. I did NOT liken the cherubim to modern day aircraft. THAT was something somebody ELSE made up seemingly in their eagerness to misconstrue and distort my words and create the illusion of an argument I did not make. The trick is called a "strawman argument" and is a trick frequently used by atheists. It is sad to see it appear on a Christian forum.

Personally I think the cherubim, whatever they are, are far ahead of anything mankind can come up with.

But the question/ challenge I put out (for the MINDS of the viewers) is are they able to believe that what David describes as happening and what HE saw, heard, felt and experienced DID ACTUALLY HAPPEN as he said it did.

Why would you so vehemenently oppose me and ridicule me for believing it actually happened if you also believed it actually happened? The only reason you would oppose me and ridicule me is if YOU did NOT believe it actually happened. So UNLESS you are (Note I'm not saying you are) just arguing for the sake of arguing and stirring up trouble it is logical to assume you do not believe it actually happened. The question is a quite valid endeavour to find out why you do not appear to believe the events David describes as happening actually happened. If there is a reason other than you simply not believing David when he says they happened.
 

Panda

Sr Mod/Webmaster
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Ok, I've just read through this topic. It is obvious to me that something else is going on here beyond the scope of this single topic. I enjoyed Mistmann's original post though a bit too long for a forum layout, better as a blog I think. From that point forward, the topic reads like an attack on him. I don't know exactly what the history is here, but it's clear that he was put on the defensive early on, and I don't quite understand.

Without addressing the "bigger issue" since I don't know enough about it yet, explain to me what the issue is in THIS topic.

Why must he decide what David saw? Is there really no room in our faith for conjecture on an "side story" like this? While it's laughable for me to imagine that God was riding around on an F-16, I don't think that is at all what Mistmann is suggesting or getting anyone else to believe. I've seen no evidence of that. What I see is someone trying to open up a topic for discussion. It's something that is worth discussing. It's something that anywhere else, at any other time, could be discussed rationally.

Suppose that I conjecture that I think Judas has good motives for what he did? Does that mean I must be bound to that opinion for life? Certainly I can talk about it without strictly holding the opinion that Judas must have had good motives. Why MUST Mistmann then believe that Jesus was a fighter pilot, and attack that non-existent belief? Surely, we are much more mature than this.
 
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