Question to Philippians 3:12

MinisterTony

Inactive
Then we will agree to disagree, I just thought I would put in my 2 cents on it. I would only add this............
Actually John tells us who he is writing to IMO when he says In 1 John 5:13, "These things have I written UNTO YOU THAT BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD." He wrote this letter to BELIEVERS.

Thus, in 1 John 2:2 Christ is the propitiation for our sins (that is, believers), and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (that is, unbelievers). That the term "world" is used elsewhere to refer to unbelievers (in contrast to believers) is clear from John 14:22; 16:8-9; 17:9,21.

When John uses the word "our" he is referring to all Christian believers, not just Jewish believers. See 1 John 1:9 – "our sins" (it was not just the Jewish believers who were to confess their sins). See also 1 John 1:10 – "we," "us," (it was not just the Jewish believers that were in danger of saying that they had not sinned). See 1 John 2:1 – "we have an advocate" (it was not just the Jewish Christians who had an Advocate, but all believers). There is no reason to say that John wrote this epistle strictly to Jewish believers. The terms "our" and "the whole world" are definitely contrasts between believers and those who are not.

If there is any question about this, let the Bible define its own terms. One should consider the usage of the term "world" in the book of 1 John (see 1 John 3:1; 3:13; 4:5; 4:9; 4:14; and especially 5:19). This word is certainly not used when referring to elect Gentiles. Especially significant is the usage of this term in 1 John 5:19. John used the expression "the whole world" in only two places: in 1 John 2:2 and 5:19. In 1 John 5:19 we read this: "And we [Christians] know that we [Christians] are of God, and THE WHOLE WORLD [non-Christians] lieth in wickedness [in the wicked one]." This is the same meaning that the expression has in 1 John 2:2, though certain Calvinists are forced to deny this because of their theology which tells them that Christ could not have paid the death penalty for any of the non-elect.

Sorry my friend, there are many misinterpretations of Scripture in your post IMHO.

Let me just add, before I invited Jesus into my heart at the age of 33 years of age, I was a believer, but I had not yet made the committment to invite Jesus into my life. Think about it, would an unbeliever invite Jesus into their lives? At some stage BEFORE a person is born again and invites Jesus into their life as Lord and Saviour, they are a believer and want to make the final commitment.

A salvation relationship with Jesus takes 3 steps:

1. Belief in Jesus.

2. Trust in Jesus.

3. Then step out and take the final step, invite Jesus into our lives and make it a legal convenant/contract that we are now in a "marriage relationship" and I have become His bride.

So that's why, IMHO. you and Jeff are in error, because you have not understood that, and are assuming that 1 John 1 is written for believers and neglected to include the fact that a person is considered a "believer" before they invite Jesus into their lives and be born again. If a person remains an unbeliever, they would never invite Jesus into their heart and make it official.

1 John 1 is NOT written for believers, it's written for unbelievers!
 
Sorry my friend, there are many misinterpretations of Scripture in your post IMHO.

Let me just add, before I invited Jesus into my heart at the age of 33 years of age, I was a believer, but I had not yet made the committment to invite Jesus into my life. Think about it, would an unbeliever invite Jesus into their lives? At some stage BEFORE a person is born again and invites Jesus into their life as Lord and Saviour, they are a believer and want to make the final commitment.

A salvation relationship with Jesus takes 3 steps:

1. Belief in Jesus.

2. Trust in Jesus.

3. Then step out and take the final step, invite Jesus into our lives and make it a legal convenant/contract that we are now in a "marriage relationship" and I have become His bride.

So that's why, IMHO. you and Jeff are in error, because you have not understood that, and are assuming that 1 John 1 is written for believers and neglected to include the fact that a person is considered a "believer" before they invite Jesus into their lives and be born again. If a person remains an unbeliever, they would never invite Jesus into their heart and make it official.

1 John 1 is NOT written for believers, it's written for unbelievers!

I have not ever heard that said...
"that a person is considered a "believer" before they invite Jesus into their lives and be born again."

I hate to say this again, but I just can not agree with that.

So you are saying that there is "saving faith" and also "faith that DOES NOT save". It has always been my understanding that in the Bible, when salvation is said to be by faith, the word “faith” is used in a comprehensive sense. It includes the OBEDIENCE necessary to express faith. Faith in this sense then includes the ACTION of faith. Abundant proof of this is all through the Bible.

IF that is not the case, then how do you deal with REPENTANCE and CONVICTION along with CONFESSION since that person is already a believer???

The word "repentance" in the Bible means "a change of mind." The Bible clearly teaches that repentance is necessary for salvation (Acts 2:38). It is impossible for anyone to be saved without repentance. But what exactly is repentance in the Bible? Repentance is when we make a U-turn in our mind concerning Christ and our sins.


To be saved my friend, you MUST come to Christ as a SINNER (1st John 1:8-10). If you are not a sinner, then why would you need a Savior? It would not make any sense at all for a self-righteous person to ask Christ for forgiveness. This is exactly why Jesus said that He DIDN'T come to save the righteous; but to call sinners to repentance. My point is that you must turn from your "good" image of yourself and confess to God your "sinful" condition. The unsaved unrepentant man wants NOTHING to do with God nor His Word (John 3:20). When a person repents, whereas they were living in the pleasures of sin away from God, now they are in agreement with God that their sins are woefully wicked and they turn to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of those sins. This is Biblical repentance.
 

MinisterTony

Inactive
I have not ever heard that said...
"that a person is considered a "believer" before they invite Jesus into their lives and be born again."

I hate to say this again, but I just can not agree with that.

...

Are you saying that an unbeliever will make a decision to invite Jesus into their heart and lives as Lord and Saviour?

There has to be some BELIEF moments, days, months, even years, before the person accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour. An unbeliever will never invite Jesus into their hearts, but according to you that's what they do.

You can be an unbeliever for 50 years, but then hear something about Jesus and Scripture that touches you, and makes you a believer. But then it may be hours, days, weeks and even years before you make a commitment and decision to give your heart and life to Jesus.

Your comments are misleading because you claim that unbelievers invite Jesus into their hearts whilst they are still unbelievers, and then AFTER they have invited Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour then they become a believer, but that's impossible, and to suggest that is misleading and deceptive!

In addition, your comments and suggestions regarding repentance is in error. Repentance is not an action or behaviour, because if it was that means we have a lost man in Paul who wrote the Bible because he said he hated what he was doing, in other words, he was sinning terribly. So it is with everyone else, there is not a single Christian who has perfectly stopped sinning, so that would mean according to you that nobody has repented.

Repentance is a state of mind, an attitude. For example, Paul gives a good example of what it means in Romans 7:15. Notice he says he hates what he is doing. That is repentance, the attitude of hatred towards sin.

If a person sins and do not care at all, they have never been born again and have never repented.

Notice again Paul, who was saved, because nobody in their right mind would claim we had a lost man writing Romans, he was sorry for his sins, YET NOTE, he was sinning daily, hence, he says, that what he does he hates. If he was living a perfect commandment keeping life, he would never say he hates what he does and doesn't do what he wants to do.

Once a person is GENUINELY born again, God writes his law and nature on the persons heart, and now all of a sudden a person will hate sinning and all of a sudden walk in agreement with God and His ways. Then naturally a person will stop getting drunk, sleeping around, lying willfully to people, and instead begin to tithe, helping the needy, sharing what they have with others etc.

That comes naturally now, and they do it without thought, its become part of their new character and new natures, and they will walk in harmony with God.

If someone claims to be a Christian yet doesn't care about sinning and it doesn't bother them, then they are not sincere born again Christians in the first place and God's law has never been written on their heart, hence, they still have no conscience.

So do you hate it when you sin? Or do you not care when you sin? That attitude to however you feel about sin, is evidence if you have repented or not.

Repentance cannot mean to perfectly become commandment keepers, because that would mean only Jesus and the angels will be in heaven, because ALL have sinned and NOBODY has stopped sinning.

Lastly, you have never understood what happened at Calvary, and that is proven by your comments and belief that a person comes to Christ to ask to have all their sins forgiven. And this is a good example of wrongly interpreting 1 John 1 as written for believers, because it has led you to falsely believe you must confess all your sins to be forgiven.

But the truth is once a person comes to Christ for salvation, they admit their wickedness and sinful nature and once Jesus comes into their heart, ALL THE SINS are forgiven because ALL THEIR SINS were fully paid by Jesus at Calvary! You don't need to sit down and confess every single sin to be saved and forgiven, and that kind of misleading understanding comes from falsely believing that 1 John 1 was written for believers. So your belief is evidence on what I was initially saying that it's dangerous to misinterpret 1 John 1 as written for believers because it will lead people astray and into legalism when they misunderstand who 1 John 1 was wrttien for.
 
Are you saying that an unbeliever will make a decision to invite Jesus into their heart and lives as Lord and Saviour?

There has to be some BELIEF moments, days, months, even years, before the person accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour. An unbeliever will never invite Jesus into their hearts, but according to you that's what they do.

You can be an unbeliever for 50 years, but then hear something about Jesus and Scripture that touches you, and makes you a believer. But then it may be hours, days, weeks and even years before you make a commitment and decision to give your heart and life to Jesus.

Your comments are misleading because you claim that unbelievers invite Jesus into their hearts whilst they are still unbelievers, and then AFTER they have invited Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour then they become a believer, but that's impossible, and to suggest that is misleading and deceptive!

In addition, your comments and suggestions regarding repentance is in error. Repentance is not an action or behaviour, because if it was that means we have a lost man in Paul who wrote the Bible because he said he hated what he was doing, in other words, he was sinning terribly. So it is with everyone else, there is not a single Christian who has perfectly stopped sinning, so that would mean according to you that nobody has repented.

Repentance is a state of mind, an attitude. For example, Paul gives a good example of what it means in Romans 7:15. Notice he says he hates what he is doing. That is repentance, the attitude of hatred towards sin.

If a person sins and do not care at all, they have never been born again and have never repented.

Notice again Paul, who was saved, because nobody in their right mind would claim we had a lost man writing Romans, he was sorry for his sins, YET NOTE, he was sinning daily, hence, he says, that what he does he hates. If he was living a perfect commandment keeping life, he would never say he hates what he does and doesn't do what he wants to do.

Once a person is GENUINELY born again, God writes his law and nature on the persons heart, and now all of a sudden a person will hate sinning and all of a sudden walk in agreement with God and His ways. Then naturally a person will stop getting drunk, sleeping around, lying willfully to people, and instead begin to tithe, helping the needy, sharing what they have with others etc.

That comes naturally now, and they do it without thought, its become part of their new character and new natures, and they will walk in harmony with God.

If someone claims to be a Christian yet doesn't care about sinning and it doesn't bother them, then they are not sincere born again Christians in the first place and God's law has never been written on their heart, hence, they still have no conscience.

So do you hate it when you sin? Or do you not care when you sin? That attitude to however you feel about sin, is evidence if you have repented or not.

Repentance cannot mean to perfectly become commandment keepers, because that would mean only Jesus and the angels will be in heaven, because ALL have sinned and NOBODY has stopped sinning.

Lastly, you have never understood what happened at Calvary, and that is proven by your comments and belief that a person comes to Christ to ask to have all their sins forgiven. And this is a good example of wrongly interpreting 1 John 1 as written for believers, because it has led you to falsely believe you must confess all your sins to be forgiven.

But the truth is once a person comes to Christ for salvation, they admit their wickedness and sinful nature and once Jesus comes into their heart, ALL THE SINS are forgiven because ALL THEIR SINS were fully paid by Jesus at Calvary! You don't need to sit down and confess every single sin to be saved and forgiven, and that kind of misleading understanding comes from falsely believing that 1 John 1 was written for believers. So your belief is evidence on what I was initially saying that it's dangerous to misinterpret 1 John 1 as written for believers because it will lead people astray and into legalism when they misunderstand who 1 John 1 was wrttien for.

You asked me.................................
"Are you saying that an unbeliever will make a decision to invite Jesus into their heart and lives as Lord and Saviour?"

Absolutely!

Tony...we are not saved by knowing about God. We are not believers because we have been told that Jesus is the Christ and we have a head knowledge of God and His gospel.
WE are saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. That is HEART knowledge. Can someone "know" about Christ and then get saved after 50 years...of course he can. BUT if he had died before he accepted Christ, he would have gone to hell because he was not saved by what he knew. We are saved by what Christ did on the cross, accepting it by faith.

IF, If your thought is that........." But then it may be hours, days, weeks and even years before you make a commitment and decision to give your heart and life to Jesus." Does that not open the door to Universal salvation by saying that in the end, everyone is a believer and are saved. It certainly would my friend.

We are saved the moment that we do give our hearts to Christ and accept Him and commit to Him.

Please correct if I am mis-interpreting the Scriptures but does it say........................................................
"ALL Have sinned and come short of the approval of God".
"Jesus came to seek and save the lost".

So then, is it not also true that Only LOST people can be saved?

Matthew 4:17
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Proverbs 14:12
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death"

Then we have......................
"And this is a good example of wrongly interpreting 1 John 1 as written for believers, because it has led you to falsely believe you must confess all your sins to be forgiven."

NOPE! It simply means as believers in Chrsist we need to confess and repent of KNOWN sin.

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” – Romans 6:6

Notice that Paul says “we should not serve sin” but he never says that we won’t sin.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” – Romans 6:15-16

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” – Isaiah 64:6
Even at our best we are still an abomination before God. That verse in Hebrew refers to a menstrual cloth. Thankfully God was also willing to work it out through the death of Christ.

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” – Isaiah 1:18

Here’s the challenge for those that believe we no longer sin or want to sin after we are saved.

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” – Romans 7:14-25

Those verses are a little bit hard to understand, but what they say is: Paul does what he’s not supposed to do and doesn’t do what he is supposed to do. He even says that with his mind he serves the law of God and with his flesh he serves sin. Paul uses present tense and says “serve” instead of “served” which is past tense.
Paul is indeed already saved when he makes this statement, so my challenge to those that believe we don’t sin or don’t want to sin, is to tell me what Paul’s problem was when he wrote this. He must not have gotten your memo.

I’m not perfect and I know it. I also know each and every time I sin. I know when I think a sinful thought or take a sinful action. It seems like this is just a poor attempt at escaping accountability, but that won’t work with God. We are responsible for every thought and every action. I shouldn’t need a verse to back this up, but:

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” – Matthew 12:36

“So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” – Romans 14:12
 

MinisterTony

Inactive
You asked me.................................
"Are you saying that an unbeliever will make a decision to invite Jesus into their heart and lives as Lord and Saviour?"

Absolutely!

...

Sorry, I do not agree with your interpretation of Scripture. An unbeliever never invites Jesus into their heart by faith, because they are an unbeliever, and unbelievers do not believe in Jesus.

However, an unbeliever may hear the gospel and become an believer. And after becoming a believer, they will pray to God and ask Jesus into their hearts and be born again of the Holy Spirit.

And unbeliever cannot be born again of the Holy Spirit because they are an unbeliever, and only belief in Jesus will save a person.

God bless.
 

Panda

Sr Mod/Webmaster
Staff member
Senior Moderator
I think that you both seem to have a different definition of believer. By changing your definitions, you both seem to be saying the same thing from my point of view. Just an observation.
 

MinisterTony

Inactive
I think that you both seem to have a different definition of believer. By changing your definitions, you both seem to be saying the same thing from my point of view. Just an observation.

Thank you for your observation and feedback.

All I am saying is that there has to be some degree of belief minutes or moments before a person invites Jesus into their heart. They have heard, then believed the good news, yet not committed to the salvation "marriage" yet, and does that by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

If I sit back and say nothing and hear the gospel about Jesus Christ. A thought enters my mind that I believe what I have heard, yet I am still to make that official and invite Jesus into my life.

An unbeliever will never make a commitment to Jesus and would never invite Jesus into their lives and heart. They have to believe the good news at some stage before they invite Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour.
 
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