Religious Freedom Vs. Personal Health

[RiverJordan]

Again, I have to wonder if I'm the only one who's read the actual complaint. It accuses the hospital of negligence, because they specifically didn't provide Ms. Means vital medical information. Direct from the complaint...

In December 2010, when Ms. Means was only 18 weeks pregnant, her water broke. She rushed to Mercy Health Partners (“MHP”), a Catholic hospital and the only hospital within thirty minutes of her home. Because of the Directives, MHP did not inform Ms. Means that, due to her condition, the fetus she was carrying had virtually no chance of surviving, and continuing
her pregnancy would pose a serious risk to her health. Nor did MHP tell Ms. Means that the safest treatment option was to induce labor and terminate the pregnancy. MHP also did not tell Ms. Means that it would not terminate her pregnancy, even if necessary for her health, because it was prohibited from doing so by the Directives. Instead, MHP sent Ms. Means home and told her to see her doctor at an appointment scheduled for more than a week later.

IMO, that's pretty bad. But it doesn't end there...

Ms. Means returned to MHP the next day, bleeding and with painful contractions. Again, MHP sent her home without giving her important information about her condition and available treatment options. She returned that night, in pain, in distress, and with signs of an infection. MHP again prepared to send her home. As she waited to be sent home for the third time, the feet of the fetus breached her cervix and she began to deliver. The baby died shortly after birth. MHP then told Ms. Means she needed to make funeral arrangements.

That's horrible. And no, I don't have a problem with the Catholic Church or anything like that. This has nothing to do with the who, but with the what...in this case, the uncaring, heartless actions of the hospital staff. And if you look at what the Council of Bishops say in response to this, they don't even deny that they withheld important medical information from a suffering woman. Their argument is that they don't have to tell anyone anything if they don't want to.

What appalls me is a total lack of compassion for the woman. This woman lost her baby, and because of the negligence of the hospital staff, put own health at serious risk. But mostly what I see here is "Oh, the poor Catholic Church. How terrible for them."

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Again, I have to wonder if I'm the only one who's read the actual complaint. It accuses the hospital of negligence, because they specifically didn't provide Ms. Means vital medical information. Direct from the complaint...

IMO, that's pretty bad. But it doesn't end there...


That's horrible. And no, I don't have a problem with the Catholic Church or anything like that. This has nothing to do with the who, but with the what...in this case, the uncaring, heartless actions of the hospital staff. And if you look at what the Council of Bishops say in response to this, they don't even deny that they withheld important medical information from a suffering woman. Their argument is that they don't have to tell anyone anything if they don't want to.

What appalls me is a total lack of compassion for the woman. This woman lost her baby, and because of the negligence of the hospital staff, put own health at serious risk. But mostly what I see here is "Oh, the poor Catholic Church. How terrible for them."

No, you are not the only one who read the complaint. I read it from the ACLU's website, the USCCB's website, as well as a few other non-partisan and non-religious sources. There may be some reason to look into whether the hospital acted imprudently in some parts, but I can say with confidence that it isn't all valid on Means's part.

We don't know all the details, though they will most likely be addressed in court. Some of it may be valid in suing if the hospital acted outside of patient rights and policy under the USCCB, but that would ultimately be due to the non-appraisal. The case not not including the option of terminating the child is another case, one which the USCCB right on.

They are very sincere about terminating a life. For instance, Catholic hospitals can hold procedures that are intended to save as much life as possible, even if it more than often kills the infant. Why is that allowed and abortions not allowed if the results look the same? Because it is direct vs. indirect. Procedures that intend to save as much life target the mothers body in an effort to save all the life that possibly can. Procedures intended to terminate the life of the infant targets the infants body with termination as the goal.

Am I saying Means doesn't have a lawsuit? Not necessarily. The appraisal part may be a valid reason to get legal action. However, the case for the option of aborting is different. I may be wrong, but I think the case for abortion is the focal point of this case. The ACLU has been pro-abortion for decades. It became officially pro-abortion in 1967, six years before Roe v. Wade. The ACLU is so radical in its defense of abortion that it has held auctions to pay for them. It has proposed the Freedom of Choice Act, a bill that would have required Catholic hospitals to perform abortions or lose federal funding. Some are saying it is anti-Catholicism -- I don't know if that's enough evidence to make that claim, but it has a record of going after hospitals that don't perform abortions.

No one is downplaying the tragedy of Means. She lost a child. The child lost his or her life. I can't imagine that feeling and I can only hope she is getting the support she needs. There is nothing mild about that, and I don't think anyone is treating it that way -- no one should anyway. However, the level of tragedy doesn't equal an entitlement to a change of Church teaching. This is a matter of legality.

Sometimes the ACLU does good things. And sometimes the USCCB has gone with bad policies. The least I can do is try to divorce myself from any given biases. I'm looking at what is Constitutional, what aligns with patient rights, and what aligns with religious rights.

Where are you seeing the sentiment of "Who cares about the baby and mother, poor Catholic Church?"

 

[RosaVera]

"Banarenth said:
This isn't a Catholic issue. This is a people issue. This should be a concern for Christians. This is a society that is attacking our right to believe what we believe."

Exactly... this whole issue, the ACLU, the present government we have today is the most vicious anti-Christian ever, especially against Catholics. Every person of faith, every church, every denomination, all of us should be united in fighting this war that the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, the present Washington administration, are waging against our freedom to express and live our lives according to our faith the way the Lord Jesus gave us all with His gospel. Yet we are divided, and not only all of us Christians but also amongst our own in our religion. Not all Evangelists, or Catholics, or Lutherans, or any other denomination will vote and be one voice as the leaders will preach them to do, and, not all church leaders will advise their congregation to vote and live their life according to their conscience. Thus, we have today, again, an administration that is transparently against Christians.

In NY there are more children killed with abortion than are born live to Black women... a billboard went up to alarm Black women of this and the outcry from 'women' organization like NOW, and Planned Parenthood, and other abortionists forced it down because it was racist against Black women, never mentioning that these same abortionists are purposely decimating the Black population beginning with Sanger. When protesters show graphic pictures of how babies are being torn inside the womb, abortionists scream that it is offending the sensibilities of women trying to get an abortion. Laws are being barred that would have a woman have a sonogram before the abortion... no one is bothering to ask the man, the one who fathered the child as to his right in all this, parents are being taken out of the equation when schools will even provide transportation to the abortion clinic for the underage girl. This is outrageous and it is the same as when Babylonians were sacrificing children to their gods by throwing them in the burning belly of the god they worshiped... dear God i just can't see how a woman doesn't see she is first supposed to protect her child, not kill it.

i do a lot of driving during the day hence i listen to Christian radio, i love listening to it and the various church leaders from many different denominations beside Catholic, i am at times hurt to hear how so many Pastors that i love listening to will demean Catholics in their sermon while i have not heard yet one priest, one Bishop, one Pope from my faith that does the same in their sermon... and this is the problem, because the Catholic faith is so upfront and has drawn the line, other Christian denominations, Christian churches instead of joining together with the Catholics in fighting for all of our religious freedoms, they choose to stand aloof and on the sidelines without helping the fight with vigor. It's getting us all nowhere and we have again an administration like the one we have today in DC... it is getting us law firms that sue church leaders as the ACLU is doing today to the Bishops. Imagine the force we would be ...

 

[RosaVera]

Where are you seeing the sentiment of "Who cares about the baby and mother, poor Catholic Church?"

It is evident that no matter what any of us say RiverJordan has a hate for Catholics ...

i have shown her so many times in this post from expert medical experts that just because a woman breaks her water if the child is not ready to be born they will not induce labor... yet, she does not answer any of this, but does attack the Catholic teachings and the leaders of the church the Bishops. IXOYE has written that there are 5 OTHER HOSPITALS in the area, not just one as the ACLU pointed out in their report, and by purposely lying it is also evident that the ACLU is trying to destroy the Catholic church. i wonder if this would happen, the Catholic church is the single largest block of Christians in the USA, they are second only to the government in helping the poor, they are large employers, provide schools and are probably the largest in helping women to keep their child, how is the government going to replace this...? How will it affect all other religions, whether Christian or not, when it comes to preaching and what they preach...? The Constitution provided protection exactly against this, and the separation of church and state was to protect the church not the state... If this lawsuit goes ahead i wonder how many leaders of all Christian churches will band together and protest this and voice their outrage.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

It is evident that no matter what any of us say RiverJordan has a hate for Catholics ...

i have shown her so many times in this post from expert medical experts that just because a woman breaks her water if the child is not ready to be born they will not induce labor... yet, she does not answer any of this, but does attack the Catholic teachings and the leaders of the church the Bishops. IXOYE has written that there are 5 OTHER HOSPITALS in the area, not just one as the ACLU pointed out in their report, and by purposely lying it is also evident that the ACLU is trying to destroy the Catholic church. i wonder if this would happen, the Catholic church is the single largest block of Christians in the USA, they are second only to the government in helping the poor, they are large employers, provide schools and are probably the largest in helping women to keep their child, how is the government going to replace this...? How will it affect all other religions, whether Christian or not, when it comes to preaching and what they preach...? The Constitution provided protection exactly against this, and the separation of church and state was to protect the church not the state... If this lawsuit goes ahead i wonder how many leaders of all Christian churches will band together and protest this and voice their outrage.

I don't want to put that on RiverJordan. I don't think she hates Catholics, but perhaps the fair thing to say is she is very critical of the Catholic Church. She at the very least opposes quite a lot of Catholic traditions.

For the most part, I agree with you. I'd like to point out that the Catholic Church isn't just the single largest block of Christianity in the US, it's the largest in the world. Its charity has been far greater than many Catholics even realize. For instance, it's the quality of the charity as well as the quantity. The Church was the first to institutionalize care for the sick, the widows, the orphans, and the poor. It's not that there hasn't been generosity in the ancient world, but nowhere near the level that we see under the Church.

W.E.H. Lecky, a historian from the 1920s and an anti-Catholic, even admitted that neither in practice nor in theory was there such charity comparable to the charity scene from Christianity under the Church.

 

[RosaVera]

Catholics on the other hand don't respond in such rabid words when it comes to replying to them... anyway i would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and hope that deep in her heart she is just adverse and not hateful against other Christians like Catholics...

Thank you Lysander...

 

[ixoye_8]

...in this case, the uncaring, heartless actions of the hospital staff.

What appalls me is a total lack of compassion for the woman. This woman lost her baby, and because of the negligence of the hospital staff

if you were a judge .. I would never want to walk into your court room ..
you have no clue what happened by listening to only one side of the story ..

if it turns out her story is embellished, then you should retract those words publicly ..
I'll wait for all testimony to be given first .. then I will give an opinion ..
speculation is ok .. but your making judgements prematurely ..
perhaps you should remember what Jesus said ..
in the way you judge, so shall you be judged ..

 

[RiverJordan]

Accusing me of hating Catholics is ridiculous and a pathetic excuse for waving away the facts of the case, which neither side is disputing. That's a very important point. The USCCB is not disputing Ms. Means accounting of the facts; they're just saying "we don't have to anything we don't want to".

Obviously for what ever reason some folks here are taking this extremely personally and cannot discuss it from an objective, rational standpoint. That's too bad.

 

[RosaVera]

Accusing me of hating Catholics is ridiculous and a pathetic excuse for waving away the facts of the case, which neither side is disputing. That's a very important point. The USCCB is not disputing Ms. Means accounting of the facts; they're just saying "we don't have to anything we don't want to".

Obviously for what ever reason some folks here are taking this extremely personally and cannot discuss it from an objective, rational standpoint. That's too bad.

Maybe because you don't seem to see the other side of this accusation... what if it is the way IXOYE has said, we don't have enough information to make a decision... but you posted the article from an ACLU website which is like going to a devil's website reporting on Christ... hope you can see that. Anyway, i do apologize for accusing you of being a person of hate, i cannot say that since i don't know your heart, but, i do wish you would also see the flip side of all this and that there are $$$ to be made besides trying to bring the single largest Christian denomination in the USA.

 

[RiverJordan]

Maybe because you don't seem to see the other side of this accusation... what if it is the way IXOYE has said, we don't have enough information to make a decision.

Again, the USCCB isn't disputing any of the facts of the case. Their argument isn't "She's lying", it's "We don't have to do anything we don't want to".

.. but you posted the article from an ACLU website which is like going to a devil's website reporting on Christ... hope you can see that.

Like I said earlier, that's just the ad hominem fallacy.

Anyway, i do apologize for accusing you of being a person of hate, i cannot say that since i don't know your heart, but, i do wish you would also see the flip side of all this and that there are $$$ to be made besides trying to bring the single largest Christian denomination in the USA.

Thanks for the apology.

 

[RosaVera]

Again, the USCCB isn't disputing any of the facts of the case. Their argument isn't "She's lying", it's "We don't have to do anything we don't want to".


We don't know if SHE IS LYING... we only know what she and the ACLU is stating, and of course the $$$ to be made... can you say for sure she is not lying... the Bishops do not ever have to apologize for their faith and their commands to the Catholic institutions that there is no abortion, no talk of abortion, no talk of sending somebody to an abortion clinic or doctor or recommending one... it is what Catholics believe and all other people of faith should also...


Like I said earlier, that's just the ad hominem fallacy.

No fallacy... just plain faith...


Thanks for the apology.

 

[RosaVera]

You asked in another thread what you don't answer... :

-Why didn't she go to her personal doctor...?
-She is a woman of 2 other kids and does not know to at least go to another hospital or doctor...? and has no clue to her condition...?
-There were other hospitals, not Catholic, why did she not go to any of these others...?
-The ACLU lied on their website about other hospitals, doesn't this mean they are liars...?
-she waited 3 years to bring the lawsuit, why...
- i showed plenty of evidence that just because the water breaks does not necessarily mean inducement especially since the child is not big enough to be born...
-do you really think that Billy Graham, or any other pastor, elder, minister like him would advise his churches, his hospital staff if he has any that they can talk about abortion...?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Obviously for what ever reason some folks here are taking this extremely personally and cannot discuss it from an objective, rational standpoint. That's too bad.

Don't put that on everyone, RiverJordan. I stood up for you and said that you probably don't hate Catholics, but that you have criticisms of your own--and you are entitled to have criticisms.

 

[RiverJordan]

You asked in another thread what you don't answer... :

Yeah....in that thread.

-Why didn't she go to her personal doctor...?
-She is a woman of 2 other kids and does not know to at least go to another hospital or doctor...? and has no clue to her condition...?
-There were other hospitals, not Catholic, why did she not go to any of these others...?

The first time, she was 18 weeks and her water broke. The next two times she was in extreme pain. She needed emergency care, not a doctor's appointment. It takes me 2 months to schedule a visit to my doctor. Is that what she should have done?

She did what most people would do...she immediately went to the closest hospital for emergency care.

But again, what does that have to do with the case? Is the hospital staff excused from withholding vital medical information from her because "she could have just gone somewhere else"? This is exactly the sort of horribly uncaring sentiment I was talking about.

-The ACLU lied on their website about other hospitals, doesn't this mean they are liars...?

No they didn't. They said this was the only hospital within 30 minutes of her.

And again, what does that have to do with the merits of the case? Are you arguing that if anyone is having a potentially life-threatening medical situation, they should pull up Google Maps, and make sure to not go to a Catholic hospital even if it's the closest?

-she waited 3 years to bring the lawsuit, why...

That's irrelevant to the merits of the case.

- i showed plenty of evidence that just because the water breaks does not necessarily mean inducement especially since the child is not big enough to be born...

Not at 18 weeks. Plus, she went back two more times, both times in extreme pain and the last time with an infection....and they were still going to send her home and not tell her what her situation was! It was only because she started to miscarry right there that they had to do something.

-do you really think that Billy Graham, or any other pastor, elder, minister like him would advise his churches, his hospital staff if he has any that they can talk about abortion...?

I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone can side with the hospital and argue that they were under no obligation to tell this woman anything at all. What the heck is a hospital for anyways?

 

[RiverJordan]

Don't put that on everyone, RiverJordan. I stood up for you and said that you probably don't hate Catholics, but that you have criticisms of your own--and you are entitled to have criticisms.

I didn't. That's why I said "some".

 

[RosaVera]

Yeah....in that thread.


The first time, she was 18 weeks and her water broke. The next two times she was in extreme pain. She needed emergency care, not a doctor's appointment. It takes me 2 months to schedule a visit to my doctor. Is that what she should have done?

On my cell phone or house phone or office phone it takes me a few minutes to reach my doctor, and when i was pregnant they would page the doctor to get back to me... this is America, and Obamacare is not in place yet, doctors will respond to their patients especially a pregnant patient... she is not that ignorant as to ignore calling her own doctor, is she...?

She did what most people would do...she immediately went to the closest hospital for emergency care.

And i as a woman am appalled that she did not have the brain to be able to speak up and say she wanted to be admitted, if this is what she wanted, or to go to another hospital the same she did this one and get what she wanted there... we cannot keep on blaming all others for our own selves and lack of thinking, this is the problem in our society we blame others for our own mistakes... i am not blaming her 100% but i do blame her for not contacting her personal doctor right away... even if she was on welfare, which we don't know, she would still have a personal doctor for her pregnancy...

But again, what does that have to do with the case? Is the hospital staff excused from withholding vital medical information from her because "she could have just gone somewhere else"? This is exactly the sort of horribly uncaring sentiment I was talking about.

Yes they are... they will not out of their own belief tell a woman to go and search for an abortionist... what does it say in the Bible, is the woman's life more important than her child she is carrying...?


No they didn't. They said this was the only hospital within 30 minutes of her.

They never mentioned any other in the area... but of course this is the only Catholic hospital and rated the best hospital ... i am sure the ACLU would really like to take this one down... in my opinion anyway.

And again, what does that have to do with the merits of the case? Are you arguing that if anyone is having a potentially life-threatening medical situation, they should pull up Google Maps, and make sure to not go to a Catholic hospital even if it's the closest?

No, nobody says you can't go to a Catholic hospital but i am sure she knew what they stand for... and besides i would like to see if in another hospital and a Christian doctor would advise her to go and seek out an abortionist...?


That's irrelevant to the merits of the case.

Not at all, not when it comes to the ACLU ... they seek out cases to forward their agenda, they have done this from the very beginning of their formation as a law firm.


Not at 18 weeks. Plus, she went back two more times, both times in extreme pain and the last time with an infection....and they were still going to send her home and not tell her what her situation was! It was only because she started to miscarry right there that they had to do something.

18 weeks is not enough for a child to be born alive, and you know this..... very few have survived and this is one of the 2 cases that are considered a miracle... :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...eks-legal-abortion-limit-clung-life-odds.html



I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone can side with the hospital and argue that they were under no obligation to tell this woman anything at all. What the heck is a hospital for anyways?

Yes they do and this hospital is not rated the best for just no reasons, yet, you and the ACLU are demonizing this hospital because it is Catholic and because they did not cater to the whims of abortionists... and they won't.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I didn't. That's why I said "some".

 

[RiverJordan]

Rosa,

On my cell phone or house phone or office phone it takes me a few minutes to reach my doctor, and when i was pregnant they would page the doctor to get back to me... this is America, and Obamacare is not in place yet, doctors will respond to their patients especially a pregnant patient... she is not that ignorant as to ignore calling her own doctor, is she...?

Wow. Your position is actually "she should have just gone somewhere else". That's horrible.

And i as a woman am appalled that she did not have the brain to be able to speak up and say she wanted to be admitted, if this is what she wanted, or to go to another hospital the same she did this one and get what she wanted there... we cannot keep on blaming all others for our own selves and lack of thinking, this is the problem in our society we blame others for our own mistakes... i am not blaming her 100% but i do blame her for not contacting her personal doctor right away... even if she was on welfare, which we don't know, she would still have a personal doctor for her pregnancy...

Again....wow. An almost complete lack of compassion.

Yes they are... they will not out of their own belief tell a woman to go and search for an abortionist.

But in this case, they didn't tell her anything except "go home"....three times!

what does it say in the Bible, is the woman's life more important than her child she is carrying...?

Wow. Just....wow.

They never mentioned any other in the area... but of course this is the only Catholic hospital and rated the best hospital ... i am sure the ACLU would really like to take this one down... in my opinion anyway.

If some of the posts in this thread are any indication of the attitude the hospital has towards patients in life-threatening situations, then yeah....maybe they do need to get out of the medical care business, since they apparently aren't about actually delivering medical care.

18 weeks is not enough for a child to be born alive, and you know this..... very few have survived and this is one of the 2 cases that are considered a miracle...

That's exactly the point. Something was going very, very wrong with her pregnancy and the hospital merely told her "go home"...three times.

Yes they do and this hospital is not rated the best for just no reasons, yet, you and the ACLU are demonizing this hospital because it is Catholic and because they did not cater to the whims of abortionists... and they won't.

No, the hospital (and some of those defending it) is doing a pretty good job of demonizing itself.

 

[RosaVera]

i'm not answering this anymore... it is going nowhere... as far as you are concerned RiverJ it is the fault of the hospital and you are judge and jury in this case without even hearing all the details... IXOYE is right, wait till all details are in and then we shall see... in the meantime a dirty law firm like the ACLU is suing leaders of the biggest church in the USA not for the sake of this woman but to bring down the Catholic church... and their past actions are all pointing to that ...

 

[RiverJordan]

as far as you are concerned RiverJ it is the fault of the hospital and you are judge and jury in this case without even hearing all the details

What details are lacking? A woman who is 18 weeks pregnant has her water breaks, she goes to the closest hospital for emergency care and is sent home. The next day she's bleeding and in pain, so she again goes to the hospital for emergency care and is sent home. That night she's in more pain and has signs of an infection, goes back to the hospital and as they're once again preparing to send her home, she miscarries. At no point in any of this does the hospital staff give her the full story of her situation because they're afraid she might seek an abortion.

None of those details are in dispute by any of the parties.

in the meantime a dirty law firm like the ACLU is suing leaders of the biggest church in the USA not for the sake of this woman but to bring down the Catholic church... and their past actions are all pointing to that ...

You've offered zero evidence of that. Now who's acting as sole judge and jury? o_O