Responsibility Free

[netchaplain]

I want to address the title before it’s mistaken. The intention of “responsibility” has to do with the fact that man has no part in effecting nor retaining salvation, only in receiving and manifesting it in the obedience of its doctrines! I suspect that the understanding of many in Christianity may not reach the full implication concerning Grace and the Law, until the Millennium. There is an obvious general lack of differentiation between the administrations of Grace and Law among a great number of those within Protestantism. This has been obvious (especially seen in the term ‘Judeo-Christian’) since the time the Decalogue, which was intended solely for the Jewish nation, was often displayed in numerous places like schools and some governmental establishments.

The Law was works related, in that the Mosaic Covenant between God and believing Israelites (Jn 14:1) provided blessings for works of obedience within the Law, and forgiveness came only from the sacrificial ordinances. This required works for exchange of blessing, but the heart and mind of the believer was still under the dominion of the old man, until the Cross. Belief in and desire for God was present in many, but God always brought them back to fellowship.

Christianity allows nobody but God to effect the Grace of salvation, in which is instilled a new nature from Christ (Col 3:10; 2Pe 1:4) which God uses to keep us desiring after Him (Phil 2:13), thus maintaining desire for fellowship with Him, as we grow in the image of His Son by Their Spirit. Under the Law, blessing came by works of obedience which manifested faith; under Grace, blessing comes by Christ’s expiation for our sin; and obedience manifests faith in Him. Faith and obedience are companion attributes, as persistent disobedience manifests unbelief (distrust).
NC​

Responsibility Free​

There are vast numbers of Christians who think that Christ, besides pardon, is simply a means to strengthen them to keep the Law. But this is sad and basic ignorance of Christianity. Is a believer then at liberty to break the Law? Of course not. It is one thing to be a debtor to do the whole Law, and another that God can make light of any breach of the Law. Is there then nothing possible between these two conditions—debt to the Law and freedom to break it?

Neither consists with a Christian. He who is free to do his own will, is a lawless man (in reference to the will after the old man—NC). He who is under the Law to do it, describes the condition of a Jew and nobody else. The believer stands on an entirely different ground. He is saved by grace and is called to walk in grace; and the character of righteousness that the Spirit instills within him is of another sort altogether (after the new man or new nature—NC). As it is said to the Philippians, “being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are”—not by the Law, but—“by Jesus Christ unto the glory and praise of God”—by Christ under grace and not under Law. This is not a question solely of justification. I am speaking now about the walk, about the responsibility of the Christian to do the will of the Father (which is a permanent “work” - Phil 2:13—NC); and I say that Christ, not the Law, is the measure of the believer’s walk; which makes all the difference possible.

The Christian, the Gentile never was under the Law; and being positioned in the risen Lord Jesus, now that he believes, he stands on other ground to which the Law does not apply. For this reason, every believer is regarded by the Father as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit unto God. The Law only deals with a man as long as he lives (Rom 7:1); never after he is dead. “But ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3); and that remarkably, is not at all what is said of us, after a second blessing, extreme unction, or any other step of imaginary perfection. We begin with it, and our water baptism declares it as a descriptive testimony.

What this sets forth is Christ’s death and resurrection. If this has any meaning at all for me, it says that I am identified with Him dead and risen. It is no longer the Law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me (there never was and never will be goodness in mankind’s nature - Rom 8:7, nor need there be, for now we’re after Christ’s nature—NC). I have relinquished all by receiving the Savior (concerning the old man—NC), and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again as one alive from the dead, to yield myself unto God. Hence, wherever you look, this is the foundation-truth of Christianity, that God has done with mere dealing with the flesh (sin nature; old man—NC). He has another Man, even a new Man (concerning His body—NC), the Lord Jesus, who has risen from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father; and the believer is identified with Him. This is practically what the Father has to make good in the heart of the Christian—“Walk ye in Him” (again - Phil 2:13 – Col 2:6—NC).

A new believer (even a seasoned believer now days—NC) may be cast down after receiving the Savior, through the sense of evil he finds in himself (Rom 7:21). He wonders how this can be. He knows how the Lord Jesus deserves to be served and is conscious of how little he serves Him as he ought; he is filled with sorrow about himself, and perhaps begins to doubt whether he be a Christian after all. He has not yet learned his lesson. He is occupied still with the old man; he looks at it and expects to get better (Rom 8:7), hoping that his heart will not have so many bad thoughts, etc., as he used to have; whereas the only strength of the believer is being filled with the Lord Jesus Christ, with all that is lovely in Him before the Father.

The saint, in proportion as he counts himself dead unto sin and alive unto God in the Lord Jesus, and as he enjoys fellowship with Him, lives above himself and his circumstances. There is the exercise of that virtue by which the Christian is said to be dead and risen—the new Life which the Holy Spirit communicates to all who believe (not the life of the Spirit but of Christ by the Spirit – Col 3:4—NC). Only the believer feels what is unlike Christ; but he rests in Who He is to God (because we are as He is - 1Jo 4:17), and this makes him happy and free.


—Wm Kelly (1821-1906)​

 

[bobinfaith]

I want to address the title before it’s mistaken. The intention of “responsibility” has to do with the fact that man has no part in effecting nor retaining salvation, only in receiving and manifesting it in the obedience of its doctrines! I suspect that the understanding of many in Christianity may not reach the full implication concerning Grace and the Law, until the Millennium. There is an obvious general lack of differentiation between the administrations of Grace and Law among a great number of those within Protestantism. This has been obvious (especially seen in the term ‘Judeo-Christian’) since the time the Decalogue, which was intended solely for the Jewish nation, was often displayed in numerous places like schools and some governmental establishments.

The Law was works related, in that the Mosaic Covenant between God and believing Israelites (Jn 14:1) provided blessings for works of obedience within the Law, and forgiveness came only from the sacrificial ordinances. This required works for exchange of blessing, but the heart and mind of the believer was still under the dominion of the old man, until the Cross. Belief in and desire for God was present in many, but God always brought them back to fellowship.

Christianity allows nobody but God to effect the Grace of salvation, in which is instilled a new nature from Christ (Col 3:10; 2Pe 1:4) which God uses to keep us desiring after Him (Phil 2:13), thus maintaining desire for fellowship with Him, as we grow in the image of His Son by Their Spirit. Under the Law, blessing came by works of obedience which manifested faith; under Grace, blessing comes by Christ’s expiation for our sin; and obedience manifests faith in Him. Faith and obedience are companion attributes, as persistent disobedience manifests unbelief (distrust).
NC​

Hello netchaplain;

Most Christians would have to take one or two semesters of Old and New Testament Theology just to understand what I "blue-lighted."

The reason I say this is because most unbelievers are encouraged to "simply, and with all their heart" receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, confess their sin, ask for forgiveness and make a commitment to follow Jesus all the days of their lives.

A new believer doesn't have to do a load of works, memorize the Bible or do a bunch of rituals to be saved.

That in itself is a huge and wonderful responsibility! Problem is, this is not taught early in disciple training.

Most of the new believer then ask themself, "what now?" Many of the very witnesses, followed by the church teacher or preacher struggle with the responsibility of discipling them from the very beginning.

This leaves the new disciple to try to figure it out for themselves, "If I do this or that will this impact Grace and Law?" The Responsibility Free should be taught and define the free will of a Christian, to choose whom we will serve, whom we will walk in obedience to and whom we desire to desire.

That is the responsibility that the church needs to define to the new believer, not the responsibility of the Big Picture for the Kingdom which is God's Work for the Grace of Salvation.

In all, Bob, I agree with your message but need to point out that unless a new believer is taught the Responsibility Free, then we will not be able to distinguish the difference.

God bless you, brother, and your family.

 

[netchaplain]

Hello netchaplain;

Most Christians would have to take one or two semesters of Old and New Testament Theology just to understand what I "blue-lighted."

The reason I say this is because most unbelievers are encouraged to "simply, and with all their heart" receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, confess their sin, ask for forgiveness and make a commitment to follow Jesus all the days of their lives.

A new believer doesn't have to do a load of works, memorize the Bible or do a bunch of rituals to be saved.

That in itself is a huge and wonderful responsibility! Problem is, this is not taught early in disciple training.

Most of the new believer then ask themself, "what now?" Many of the very witnesses, followed by the church teacher or preacher struggle with the responsibility of discipling them from the very beginning.

This leaves the new disciple to try to figure it out for themselves, "If I do this or that will this impact Grace and Law?" The Responsibility Free should be taught and define the free will of a Christian, to choose whom we will serve, whom we will walk in obedience to and whom we desire to desire.

That is the responsibility that the church needs to define to the new believer, not the responsibility of the Big Picture for the Kingdom which is God's Work for the Grace of Salvation.

In all, Bob, I agree with your message but need to point out that unless a new believer is taught the Responsibility Free, then we will not be able to distinguish the difference.

God bless you, brother, and your family.

Thanks Brother Bob for the support and comments! God bless the Family!

 

[Cooper]

I want to address the title before it’s mistaken. The intention of “responsibility” has to do with the fact that man has no part in effecting nor retaining salvation, only in receiving and manifesting it in the obedience of its doctrines! I suspect that the understanding of many in Christianity may not reach the full implication concerning Grace and the Law, until the Millennium. There is an obvious general lack of differentiation between the administrations of Grace and Law among a great number of those within Protestantism. This has been obvious (especially seen in the term ‘Judeo-Christian’) since the time the Decalogue, which was intended solely for the Jewish nation, was often displayed in numerous places like schools and some governmental establishments.

The Law was works related, in that the Mosaic Covenant between God and believing Israelites (Jn 14:1) provided blessings for works of obedience within the Law, and forgiveness came only from the sacrificial ordinances. This required works for exchange of blessing, but the heart and mind of the believer was still under the dominion of the old man, until the Cross. Belief in and desire for God was present in many, but God always brought them back to fellowship.

Christianity allows nobody but God to effect the Grace of salvation, in which is instilled a new nature from Christ (Col 3:10; 2Pe 1:4) which God uses to keep us desiring after Him (Phil 2:13), thus maintaining desire for fellowship with Him, as we grow in the image of His Son by Their Spirit. Under the Law, blessing came by works of obedience which manifested faith; under Grace, blessing comes by Christ’s expiation for our sin; and obedience manifests faith in Him. Faith and obedience are companion attributes, as persistent disobedience manifests unbelief (distrust).
NC​

Responsibility Free​

There are vast numbers of Christians who think that Christ, besides pardon, is simply a means to strengthen them to keep the Law. But this is sad and basic ignorance of Christianity. Is a believer then at liberty to break the Law? Of course not. It is one thing to be a debtor to do the whole Law, and another that God can make light of any breach of the Law. Is there then nothing possible between these two conditions—debt to the Law and freedom to break it?

Neither consists with a Christian. He who is free to do his own will, is a lawless man (in reference to the will after the old man—NC). He who is under the Law to do it, describes the condition of a Jew and nobody else. The believer stands on an entirely different ground. He is saved by grace and is called to walk in grace; and the character of righteousness that the Spirit instills within him is of another sort altogether (after the new man or new nature—NC). As it is said to the Philippians, “being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are”—not by the Law, but—“by Jesus Christ unto the glory and praise of God”—by Christ under grace and not under Law. This is not a question solely of justification. I am speaking now about the walk, about the responsibility of the Christian to do the will of the Father (which is a permanent “work” - Phil 2:13—NC); and I say that Christ, not the Law, is the measure of the believer’s walk; which makes all the difference possible.

The Christian, the Gentile never was under the Law; and being positioned in the risen Lord Jesus, now that he believes, he stands on other ground to which the Law does not apply. For this reason, every believer is regarded by the Father as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit unto God. The Law only deals with a man as long as he lives (Rom 7:1); never after he is dead. “But ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3); and that remarkably, is not at all what is said of us, after a second blessing, extreme unction, or any other step of imaginary perfection. We begin with it, and our water baptism declares it as a descriptive testimony.

What this sets forth is Christ’s death and resurrection. If this has any meaning at all for me, it says that I am identified with Him dead and risen. It is no longer the Law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me (there never was and never will be goodness in mankind’s nature - Rom 8:7, nor need there be, for now we’re after Christ’s nature—NC). I have relinquished all by receiving the Savior (concerning the old man—NC), and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again as one alive from the dead, to yield myself unto God. Hence, wherever you look, this is the foundation-truth of Christianity, that God has done with mere dealing with the flesh (sin nature; old man—NC). He has another Man, even a new Man (concerning His body—NC), the Lord Jesus, who has risen from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father; and the believer is identified with Him. This is practically what the Father has to make good in the heart of the Christian—“Walk ye in Him” (again - Phil 2:13 – Col 2:6—NC).

A new believer (even a seasoned believer now days—NC) may be cast down after receiving the Savior, through the sense of evil he finds in himself (Rom 7:21). He wonders how this can be. He knows how the Lord Jesus deserves to be served and is conscious of how little he serves Him as he ought; he is filled with sorrow about himself, and perhaps begins to doubt whether he be a Christian after all. He has not yet learned his lesson. He is occupied still with the old man; he looks at it and expects to get better (Rom 8:7), hoping that his heart will not have so many bad thoughts, etc., as he used to have; whereas the only strength of the believer is being filled with the Lord Jesus Christ, with all that is lovely in Him before the Father.

The saint, in proportion as he counts himself dead unto sin and alive unto God in the Lord Jesus, and as he enjoys fellowship with Him, lives above himself and his circumstances. There is the exercise of that virtue by which the Christian is said to be dead and risen—the new Life which the Holy Spirit communicates to all who believe (not the life of the Spirit but of Christ by the Spirit – Col 3:4—NC). Only the believer feels what is unlike Christ; but he rests in Who He is to God (because we are as He is - 1Jo 4:17), and this makes him happy and free.


—Wm Kelly (1821-1906)​

There are many scriptures that warn the Christian against backsliding.
.

 

[netchaplain]

There are many scriptures that warn the Christian against backsliding.
.

Hi, and thanks for your reply! There is something I'd like to address concerning your comment. It's true that believers are warned or admonished against "drawing back" or apostatizing (Heb 10:38, 39), but I believe most misunderstand its meaning. The general thought of most is that it means a reborn person departing from the faith, which is not the intention, for those reborn will never desire to depart (Phil 2:13).

The designed intention of "drawing back" is that of from what are they withdrawing, which is only a hypocritical profession with the mouth and works, and are not reborn (Mat 15:8).

"Backsliding" is only in the OT, and "apostatizing" is not in OT or NT, but it means to draw back or fall away, which evinces that one is not a true believer, for believers "are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." When Jewish believers in God in the OT (Jn 14:1) were disobedient, God would put them through enough hardness that would cause them to seek Him again, and He would always draw them back to Himself. Believers in Christ will never need difficulties to cause them to desire to return to God because He "worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13); and the trials are for growing in fellowship with God, and not for reuniting.

Blessings to your Family!

 

[Cooper]

Hi, and thanks for your reply! There is something I'd like to address concerning your comment. It's true that believers are warned or admonished against "drawing back" or apostatizing (Heb 10:38, 39), but I believe most misunderstand its meaning. The general thought of most is that it means a reborn person departing from the faith, which is not the intention, for those reborn will never desire to depart (Phil 2:13).

The designed intention of "drawing back" is that of from what are they withdrawing, which is only a hypocritical profession with the mouth and works, and are not reborn (Mat 15:8).

"Backsliding" is only in the OT, and "apostatizing" is not in OT or NT, but it means to draw back or fall away, which evinces that one is not a true believer, for believers "are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." When Jewish believers in God in the OT (Jn 14:1) were disobedient, God would put them through enough hardness that would cause them to seek Him again, and He would always draw them back to Himself. Believers in Christ will never need difficulties to cause them to desire to return to God because He "worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13); and the trials are for growing in fellowship with God, and not for reuniting.

Blessings to your Family!

These scriptures below and many more like them are addressed to the believer:

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Mat 5:13 Ye (believers) are the salt of the earth: but if the salt (believers) have lost their savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I have dozens of similar scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments. The Israelites are an example of a backsliden nation.

What you are teaching is "Once Saved Always Saved" and if I remember correctly this is one of the subjects that is not to be discussed on this forum, so I shall withdraw from this particular thread. Thank you.

Topics Which May Not Be Discussed

We at CFS would like to bring to your attention certain topics, when discussed or debated in the forum, tend to cause division and strife and quickly turn into heated discussions which simply can not be permitted here at CFS. We work hard to assure that CFS will always be a safe and friendly...

christianforumsite.com

 

[netchaplain]

These scriptures below and many more like them are addressed to the believer:

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Mat 5:13 Ye (believers) are the salt of the earth: but if the salt (believers) have lost their savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I have dozens of similar scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments. The Israelites are an example of a backsliden nation.

What you are teaching is "Once Saved Always Saved" and if I remember correctly this is one of the subjects that is not to be discussed on this forum, so I shall withdraw from this particular thread. Thank you.

Topics Which May Not Be Discussed

We at CFS would like to bring to your attention certain topics, when discussed or debated in the forum, tend to cause division and strife and quickly turn into heated discussions which simply can not be permitted here at CFS. We work hard to assure that CFS will always be a safe and friendly...

christianforumsite.com

The subject of eternal security can be discussed without usage of terms like OSAS. One cannot discuss any spiritual growth doctrine without somewhere maintaining the element of eternal security. Myself, I do not know a way to discuss Christian doctrine apart from the security issue. I wouldn't be able to share on a site that would be so excessively opposed to this doctrine that you could not discuss eternal security in its Scriptural form.

On the dozen sites I've been maintaining communication with for the last 15 years, I voluntarily discontinued sharing these articles only on one site because of this issue. The point is not to make direct references to terms that are not permitted (e.g. OSAS, etc.). Avoiding eternal security doctrine in Christianity would be like discussing boats without the issue of water involved, or airplanes without air.

Wishing you God's best, because I know you mean well, as many others do! Let me know if you ever want me to reply to your comments in this post.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello netchaplain;

I find it respectfully interesting that brother Cooper receives this thread from the context of OSAS, while I posted from another angle that Responsibility Free has points that distinguishes between our free will to obedience and understanding God's work of Grace and Law.

Two different views.

My view is this is not consistently being taught early in a new believer's discipleship. Your thoughts?

Please continue this discussion and I want to encourage all authors; we will receive disagreements and different points of view, and it's important for the author to respond to the reader and poster in order that we all will understand. We appreciate you setting that example, Bob.

Meantime, Responsibility Free remains within the confines of the forum rules of Christian discussion.

God bless you and keep writing, brother.

 

[netchaplain]

Hello netchaplain;

I find it respectfully interesting that brother Cooper receives this thread from the context of OSAS, while I posted from another angle that Responsibility Free has points that distinguishes between our free will to obedience and understanding God's work of Grace and Law.

Two different views.

My view is this is not consistently being taught early in a new believer's discipleship. Your thoughts?

Please continue this discussion and I want to encourage all authors; we will receive disagreements and different points of view, and it's important for the author to respond to the reader and poster in order that we all will understand. We appreciate you setting that example, Bob.

Meantime, Responsibility Free remains within the confines of the forum rules of Christian discussion.

God bless you and keep writing, brother.

I admit that the articles I share are always eternal-security-centered, but there's no need to use terminology that the rules forbid. Thanks and God bless Brother.

 

[Cooper]

These scriptures below and many more like them are addressed to the believer:

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Mat 5:13 Ye (believers) are the salt of the earth: but if the salt (believers) have lost their savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I have dozens of similar scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments. The Israelites are an example of a backsliden nation.

What you are teaching is "Once Saved Always Saved" and if I remember correctly this is one of the subjects that is not to be discussed on this forum, so I shall withdraw from this particular thread. Thank you.

The subject of eternal security can be discussed without usage of terms like OSAS. One cannot discuss any spiritual growth doctrine without somewhere maintaining the element of eternal security. Myself, I do not know a way to discuss Christian doctrine apart from the security issue. I wouldn't be able to share on a site that would be so excessively opposed to this doctrine that you could not discuss eternal security in its Scriptural form.

On the dozen sites I've been maintaining communication with for the last 15 years, I voluntarily discontinued sharing these articles only on one site because of this issue. The point is not to make direct references to terms that are not permitted (e.g. OSAS, etc.). Avoiding eternal security doctrine in Christianity would be like discussing boats without the issue of water involved, or airplanes without air.

Wishing you God's best, because I know you mean well, as many others do! Let me know if you ever want me to reply to your comments in this post.

Just to add, the faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, who will always welcome back the prodigal after many years of wandering astray. The warnings are for the apostate who renounces their faith. Paul has it right when he tell us to run the race until the end when we shall receive a crown of glory. May God bless.

 

[Cooper]

I am unsure of how to reply on this message board, but just to add...

The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, who will always welcome back the prodigal after many years of wandering astray. The warnings are for the apostate who renounces their faith. Paul has it right when he tell us to run the race until the end when we shall receive a crown of glory. May God bless.

 

[netchaplain]

I am unsure of how to reply on this message board, but just to add...

The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, who will always welcome back the prodigal after many years of wandering astray. The warnings are for the apostate who renounces their faith. Paul has it right when he tell us to run the race until the end when we shall receive a crown of glory. May God bless.

I like the way you worded these comments, they are readily understandable, though my view is different than most on many Biblical passages. I believe that when we come to faith and are saved, we are in union with the God, but fellowship comes with growth in the image of the Son. In the outset of this union there is minimal fellowship because it requires time to learn fellowship through His Word, and eventually every soul reborn unceasingly "draws neigh to God" (Jas 4:8).

The prodigal manifested he was the father's son by the desire shown in returning to him, regardless the cost. Though the son will ever be his son in blood, he would not be his son in spirit if he had not desired to return. This would have shown he was not his son in spirit, nor would he be a prodigal if he did not want his father's fellowship! One manifests being a prodigal (Christian) inwardly in spirit, not merely outwardly in works, which could be hypocritical (Rom 2:28; 29).

Concerning apostates, it's my understanding that they were never reborn, or they would not manifest apostacy, which means permanently departing from a false profession and outward walk; they only have the knowledge of the truth, but do not receive the truth.

 

[Cooper]

I like the way you worded these comments, they are readily understandable, though my view is different than most on many Biblical passages. I believe that when we come to faith and are saved, we are in union with the God, but fellowship comes with growth in the image of the Son. In the outset of this union there is minimal fellowship because it requires time to learn fellowship through His Word, and eventually every soul reborn unceasingly "draws neigh to God" (Jas 4:8).

The prodigal manifested he was the father's son by the desire shown in returning to him, regardless the cost. Though the son will ever be his son in blood, he would not be his son in spirit if he had not desired to return. This would have shown he was not his son in spirit, nor would he be a prodigal if he did not want his father's fellowship! One manifests being a prodigal (Christian) inwardly in spirit, not merely outwardly in works, which could be hypocritical (Rom 2:28; 29).

Concerning apostates, it's my understanding that they were never reborn, or they would not manifest apostacy, which means permanently departing from a false profession and outward walk; they only have the knowledge of the truth, but do not receive the truth.

The first part of my post was a very brief summery, but moving on, you say "it is your understanding they were never reborn." Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures? Also did you not notice, the writers were addressing born again Christians?

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Mat 5:13 Ye (believers) are the salt of the earth: but if the salt (believers) have lost their savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
.

 

[bobinfaith]

Concerning apostates, it's my understanding that they were never reborn, or they would not manifest apostasy, which means permanently departing from a false profession and outward walk; they only have the knowledge of the truth, but do not receive the truth.

The first part of my post was a very brief summery, but moving on, you say "it is your understanding they were never reborn." Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures? Also did you not notice, the writers were addressing born again Christians?

Brother Cooper wrote, The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, this is very true. The faithful, the follower, the desiring of Christ is going to receive the benefit of the Abiding of Christ in us. The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, is a life-giving connection to our Lord and Savior.

I do agree the Scriptures you share point to the Believer. These very Scriptures also point to the unbeliever and the fake believer and here is my conviction and prayer; we cannot limit God. His Word which is meant for all because in His Word honors His only Begotten Son, who is meant for all.

The unbeliever may not get it for lack of The Light, and the fake believer may still have other ulterior motives on their heart. Still, the opportunity to receive the Scriptures is for all.

The Truth and sad fact is many born again Christians did lie when they accepted Jesus for all kinds of sugar coating, emotional reasons. Their lives turn rocky and thorny along the way and they are quick to revert back to their former ways, renouncing their faith in favor of the quick fix gratifications of the world, thus apostasy.

Another root of apostasy is the tendency to embrace the glory and the joy of Christology but avoids any sharing of Jesus’ suffering.

Cooper, in your post I red-lighted Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures? Please elaborate the part of not noticing? I'm also learning.

netchaplain, I agree, sadly, that many Christians, seasoned and nominal, have displayed their knowledge of Truth but do not receive the Truth. This is why the church, preacher and teacher need to teach the discipline and obedience of the doctrine to the new believer. For example, "why am I following Jesus" or "where will this lead me?"

We need to include answering those hard questions to the challenging subjects that point to Jesus to our new believers, as well as the unbelievers and the fake believers. Good discipleship for all of us will help increase the understanding of our faith and security in Christ, and distinguish between obedience, Grace and Law.

Good stuff!

Thank you for allowing me to share in this discussion.

 

[Cooper]

Brother Cooper wrote, The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, this is very true. The faithful, the follower, the desiring of Christ is going to receive the benefit of the Abiding of Christ in us. The faithful are always secure in the love of Jesus, is a life-giving connection to our Lord and Savior.

I do agree the Scriptures you share point to the Believer. These very Scriptures also point to the unbeliever and the fake believer and here is my conviction and prayer; we cannot limit God. His Word which is meant for all because in His Word honors His only Begotten Son, who is meant for all.

The unbeliever may not get it for lack of The Light, and the fake believer may still have other ulterior motives on their heart. Still, the opportunity to receive the Scriptures is for all.

The Truth and sad fact is many born again Christians did lie when they accepted Jesus for all kinds of sugar coating, emotional reasons. Their lives turn rocky and thorny along the way and they are quick to revert back to their former ways, renouncing their faith in favor of the quick fix gratifications of the world, thus apostasy.

Another root of apostasy is the tendency to embrace the glory and the joy of Christology but avoids any sharing of Jesus’ suffering.

Cooper, in your post I red-lighted Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures? Please elaborate the part of not noticing? I'm also learning.

netchaplain, I agree, sadly, that many Christians, seasoned and nominal, have displayed their knowledge of Truth but do not receive the Truth. This is why the church, preacher and teacher need to teach the discipline and obedience of the doctrine to the new believer. For example, "why am I following Jesus" or "where will this lead me?"

We need to include answering those hard questions to the challenging subjects that point to Jesus to our new believers, as well as the unbelievers and the fake believers. Good discipleship for all of us will help increase the understanding of our faith and security in Christ, and distinguish between obedience, Grace and Law.

Good stuff!

Thank you for allowing me to share in this discussion.

When I wrote, “Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures” my intent was to draw the reader’s attention to both the subject (backsliding) and to whom the Lord is speaking i.e. Believers. For it is a sad fact that the unbeliever cannot fall away from the Lord. Here are further scriptures addressed to believers, leaving out the three I posted earlier.

The apostle Paul warns Timothy about the dangers of making a shipwreck of his faith. (I Timothy 1:18-19)

In Hebrews 3:12-14 Christians are warned about the dangers of departing from the living God.

Hebrews 12:25 warns about turning away from the one who speaks from heaven!

II Peter 3:17 warns us about the dangers of being led away with the error of the wicked.

Heb 10:38 tells us “if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 “our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

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Election gets tied in with the above subject, but the elect are those people or nations God uses in the furtherance of his plan and purpose. Sometimes God used wicked nations so that Israel would return to him. Among the elect of God were Abram, Moses, Judas, Mary, the mother of Jesus, Rahab, Jonah, Job, the disciples and many more even down the ages.

 

[netchaplain]

The first part of my post was a very brief summery, but moving on, you say "it is your understanding they were never reborn." Did you not notice the subject matter of the scriptures? Also did you not notice, the writers were addressing born again Christians?

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Mat 5:13 Ye (believers) are the salt of the earth: but if the salt (believers) have lost their savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
.

There are a great number of passages that seem to support one losing salvation, but it is only due to the way they read, which is often misunderstood. But there are also many passages seemingly supporting you can't loose your salvation, and it is often difficult to collate agreement with these two seemingly opposing positions. In reality of course, they do not contain opposing views, as is the case with the entirety of Scripture, so only one view is correct. I believe these opposing views will remain, and depending of which we understand will determine one's level of encouragement.

It's my belief that the crux of Heb 6:4-6 exemplifies a situation, that if one lost their salvation they could never be saved again, meaning you can only be saved once. Neither does Scripture support a repeated rebirth, which is salvation, and the issue of being repeatedly saved is never worded in Scripture. My understanding is that these passages and all the others like them imply that true believers will never need resaved, which is "impossible," i.e. the impossibility of being reborn twice is as impossible as one ever even requiring to be resaved.

Albert Barnes (1798-1870):

- "If they shall fall away" - literally, “and having fallen away.” “There is no if in the Greek in this place - “having fallen away.” Dr. John P. Wilson. It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again.

In my opinion, verse 9 supports the permanency of faith and salvation by implying that though the passages do describe genuine believers, the theoretical condition of loosing their salvation would not apply to them:

"Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation" NLT

The Mat 5:13 verse is more clearly a supposition, because salt cannot naturally loose is savor (saltiness). I believe the point the Lord was making is that the earth will be salted by you, otherwise it will not be salted. Same for verses 14, 15. Light is never hidden but shown, which light is the believer and is how (v 16) "they may see your good works, and glorify your Father." The Body of Christ is used to either draw others, or be a witness against them who do not come.

2Pe 2:21 and Heb 10:26 are similar in demonstrating that they are those who learn about the Gospel, but only to a notional or speculative level, and never believe it, e.g. only "knowing the way of righteousness," but not believing or living by it.

Heb - If we are shown the Gospel and continue to "sin willfully" without believing and living by it, it manifests we are still unsaved.

 

[Cooper]

Responsibility Free​

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

Taking all scriptures into consideration on this subject, as indeed we always should when studying the Bible, 2 Peter 2:20 sums up the subject of falling away into apostasy very well. The thought that comes to my mind is that far from being “Responsibility Free” we have a responsibility to ourselves to follow the Good Shepherd all the days of our life, for as Psalms 23:6 says, “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.”

Blessings.

 

[netchaplain]

Responsibility Free​

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

Taking all scriptures into consideration on this subject, as indeed we always should when studying the Bible, 2 Peter 2:20 sums up the subject of falling away into apostasy very well. The thought that comes to my mind is that far from being “Responsibility Free” we have a responsibility to ourselves to follow the Good Shepherd all the days of our life, for as Psalms 23:6 says, “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.”

Blessings.

I do not interpret (nor do some Bible commentators) verse 20 to be descriptive of believers but of those who were attempting to be accepted by believers. The confirmation of this is the fact of their finale lifestyle manifesting no change, like the dog and the pig in verse 22, always returning outwardly to who and what they still are. The "escaping" speaks only to a false sense of believing the Lord Jesus, for acceptance and conscience sake (Mat 23:28).

Considering the preceding verses describe these in verses 20-22, I wouldn't think it sensible to consider them accepting anything beyond only knowledge of Christ, esp. not receiving faith in Him, or He would have changed them like all the others who believe.

A Barnes - "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world" - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

John Gill (1697–1771) "Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" - Neither does this imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

"Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place.

 

[bobinfaith]

Responsibility Free​

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)

Taking all scriptures into consideration on this subject, as indeed we always should when studying the Bible, 2 Peter 2:20 sums up the subject of falling away into apostasy very well. The thought that comes to my mind is that far from being “Responsibility Free” we have a responsibility to ourselves to follow the Good Shepherd all the days of our life, for as Psalms 23:6 says, “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.”

Blessings.

I do not interpret (nor do some Bible commentators) verse 20 to be descriptive of believers but of those who were attempting to be accepted by believers. The confirmation of this is the fact of their finale lifestyle manifesting no change, like the dog and the pig in verse 22, always returning outwardly to who and what they still are. The "escaping" speaks only to a false sense of believing the Lord Jesus, for acceptance and conscience sake (Mat 23:28).

Considering the preceding verses describe these in verses 20-22, I wouldn't think it sensible to consider them accepting anything beyond only knowledge of Christ, esp. not receiving faith in Him, or He would have changed them like all the others who believe.

It turns my understanding of what I'm reading toward those who return to their own sin, to my own understanding starting with me, and my walk with Christ. The Responsibility Free is my responsibility of a genuine relationship with God. I feel if I pretend with Him, then I could very well pretend with others just to be a part of the crowd.

We need to look at the bigger picture, "what are we going to do and who are we to be should Jesus come back tomorrow?

 

[Cooper]

It turns my understanding of what I'm reading toward those who return to their own sin, to my own understanding starting with me, and my walk with Christ. The Responsibility Free is my responsibility of a genuine relationship with God. I feel if I pretend with Him, then I could very well pretend with others just to be a part of the crowd.

We need to look at the bigger picture, "what are we going to do and who are we to be should Jesus come back tomorrow?

Praise God. Then, after all He has done for us, and wrought a work in our heart, comes discipleship and service. My prayers go out to everyone. I love Jesus.