Revelation 13

Kevin said:
Like I said I am not denigrating the barcode theory - I am just saying we should not be so stuck on a literal interpretation. In the US the barcode theory or chip theory is a well taught theory but here in SA it is not the case. In fact few churches actually preach about it at all. Maybe they just have other problems to deal with. Anyway time will tell - one interpretation from Revelation I think we will all agree upon is that we are all called on to persevere through whatever trial(s) come our way and to live holy lives, because we will all recieve a glorious welcome by our Saviour in the end, chip or no chip.
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Agreed my friend!

Nice to speak with you so far away.

Are you well? I have a dear friend in Uganda. Pastor Sam leads a church and school there. WE have made several trips there to help build the school and build rooms for the children. They are preciouse saints.I know the times are difficult and we pray for Africa dayily.
 
Major said:
Agreed my friend!

Nice to speak with you so far away.

Are you well? I have a dear friend in Uganda. Pastor Sam leads a church and school there. WE have made several trips there to help build the school and build rooms for the children. They are preciouse saints.I know the times are difficult and we pray for Africa dayily.
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Things here in SA are considerably better than some of the other African countries but we have our problems. We have an increasing gap between lower class and the upper class with the middle class disappearing at an alarming rate. Aids is a major problem as well as TB. The government is slowly imploding on itself with what looks like the beginning of a banana republic mantality. Hopefully sanity prevails and the people wake up in the next election.

We are very well here, but there is so much to do especially in a society so diverse as ours. There is a major shift towards secularism in the upper and middle class yet still so much witchcraft and ancestoral worship in the lower class. For those out there in the western world and dont believe in the existence of demons and their destructive nature on people - come and visit Africa and you will get a different mindset very quickly.

There is a big church presence here in SA but it is sleeping. We dont need missionaries we need on fire evangelists.

Major, I hope you are all well and that God will keep and protect you and your family. It is nice to chat with people across the globe and yet it is amazing to know that someday we will all worship in heaven.
 
Kevin said:
Things here in SA are considerably better than some of the other African countries but we have our problems. We have an increasing gap between lower class and the upper class with the middle class disappearing at an alarming rate. Aids is a major problem as well as TB. The government is slowly imploding on itself with what looks like the beginning of a banana republic mantality. Hopefully sanity prevails and the people wake up in the next election.

We are very well here, but there is so much to do especially in a society so diverse as ours. There is a major shift towards secularism in the upper and middle class yet still so much witchcraft and ancestoral worship in the lower class. For those out there in the western world and dont believe in the existence of demons and their destructive nature on people - come and visit Africa and you will get a different mindset very quickly.

There is a big church presence here in SA but it is sleeping. We dont need missionaries we need on fire evangelists.

Major, I hope you are all well and that God will keep and protect you and your family. It is nice to chat with people across the globe and yet it is amazing to know that someday we will all worship in heaven.
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Absolutely!

I have understood that HIV is common in approx. 25 million in Africa. If that is true it is staggering!

Been there........Uganda that is. And yes I saw the demonic presense of spirits.

Do well, pray and know that we are with you !!!!
 
30% of our nation is HIV. They try many programs to try and stop it but unless the moral problem behind Aids is addressed they will never stop it. The only answer to AIDS is to follow the Biblical teachings of sex after marriage, monogamy and no fornication. Problem is our leaders do not even try to obey this - we have lost count of the number of wives and illegitimate children our president has.

Sorry- just realised this topic has gone way off subject, nothing to do with Rev. 13. I will refrain.
 
So we still have not counted the number of the beast. The point that is being overlooked is that we are called to count or compute or calculate the number of the beast and then we finish up being told it is 666.......or are we?
Try this analogy: "Ok children, today's math exercise is to calculate the sum of 2+3, which will be a prime number and that number is 5" That wouldn't make much sense as a maths exercise, so why are we challenged to count the number of the beast and then pointed to the value of 666? unless........................................
I do have a possible answer to this, however I would have liked some creative input from others first.

Blessings
calvin
 
Kevin said:
30% of our nation is HIV. They try many programs to try and stop it but unless the moral problem behind Aids is addressed they will never stop it. The only answer to AIDS is to follow the Biblical teachings of sex after marriage, monogamy and no fornication. Problem is our leaders do not even try to obey this - we have lost count of the number of wives and illegitimate children our president has.

Sorry- just realised this topic has gone way off subject, nothing to do with Rev. 13. I will refrain.
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I do not think that our friend Bill would care one single bit Kevin.

He just like me would agree with you that the answer lies in the ability to follow God's Word on sex and marriage.

He knows that the key to great Bible study is to go with the flow of the Holy Spirit who guides us and teaches us.

Bless your heart!
 
calvin said:
So we still have not counted the number of the beast. The point that is being overlooked is that we are called to count or compute or calculate the number of the beast and then we finish up being told it is 666.......or are we?
Try this analogy: "Ok children, today's math exercise is to calculate the sum of 2+3, which will be a prime number and that number is 5" That wouldn't make much sense as a maths exercise, so why are we challenged to count the number of the beast and then pointed to the value of 666? unless........................................
I do have a possible answer to this, however I would have liked some creative input from others first.

Blessings
calvin
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I believe that it is very obvious here that the "false prophet" has wedded religion with business.
You will have to have the mark of the Beast to do business.

Rev. 13:15-17
He (false prophet) was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In John's day soldiers were branded by their commanders. Slaves were branded by their owners. Those who were attached to certain pagan temples were branded by the mark of their god or goddes whom they served.
Ptolemy Philopater had all Jews in Alexandria marked with the ivy leaf, which was the eymbol of Dionysus.

In our day we have already seen Hitler brand the Jews in Poland and other countries the Germans conquered.

This verse IS NOT the fullfilment of prophecy but it surely shows how prophecy can and will come to pass.

What is the mark of the beast? NO ONE KNOWS and it is not given to us.

As I have said before, I do have some knowledge on the UPC bar code but I suggest that not too much time be spent on trying to id a person by this number.

It is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ that we all need to focus our attention on.
 
calvin said:
So we still have not counted the number of the beast. The point that is being overlooked is that we are called to count or compute or calculate the number of the beast and then we finish up being told it is 666.......or are we?
Try this analogy: "Ok children, today's math exercise is to calculate the sum of 2+3, which will be a prime number and that number is 5" That wouldn't make much sense as a maths exercise, so why are we challenged to count the number of the beast and then pointed to the value of 666? unless........................................
I do have a possible answer to this, however I would have liked some creative input from others first.

Blessings
calvin
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Kevin,
Your pursuit is no less and no more to the point than the imaginary codes hidden in the scriptures.
 
Actually there is no hidden code there such as is found in Dan Brown's work of fiction.
There is a challenge to think things through though, that is why the peculiar phraseology is there.
Most commentators gloss over this and other things; EG the significance of the Water (a traditional source of evil) and the significance of the land.
Just reading from a commentary and thinking one has done good job is just not good enough in my view.
 
calvin said:
Actually there is no hidden code there such as is found in Dan Brown's work of fiction.
There is a challenge to think things through though, that is why the peculiar phraseology is there.
Most commentators gloss over this and other things; EG the significance of the Water (a traditional source of evil) and the significance of the land.
Just reading from a commentary and thinking one has done good job is just not good enough in my view.
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And what, other than the lack of attention, causes you to believe I am a sucker for the commentaries?

All this and you did not address my comment?
 
If we are to just skim through the texts of Revelation and just brush everything off as being literal and straight forward, then I ask:
Which sea does the first beast emerge from? Is it the Aegean sea, Black Sea, the Red sea, the sea of Galilee, the Coral sea? Which?
Which acreage of land does the second beast come from? What country should we keep an eye on for the coming of the 2nd beast?
So many question, so few answers :(
No, I'm not mocking scripture nor any individual. If it can be fairly said that I am mocking anything; it is tardy, sloppy Bible study.
2Tim. 2:15 Kjv
Prov. 27:17 Iron.....I wonder if it was just cast iron in those days (brittle and mostly unworkable like dried clay) , or carbon steel which would be both malleable and to some extent, ductile.

blessings,
calvin
 
calvin said:
If we are to just skim through the texts of Revelation and just brush everything off as being literal and straight forward, then I ask:
Which sea does the first beast emerge from? Is it the Aegean sea, Black Sea, the Red sea, the sea of Galilee, the Coral sea? Which?
Which acreage of land does the second beast come from? What country should we keep an eye on for the coming of the 2nd beast?
So many question, so few answers :(
No, I'm not mocking scripture nor any individual. If it can be fairly said that I am mocking anything; it is tardy, sloppy Bible study.
2Tim. 2:15 Kjv
Prov. 27:17 Iron.....I wonder if it was just cast iron in those days (brittle and mostly unworkable like dried clay) , or carbon steel which would be both malleable and to some extent, ductile.

blessings,
calvin
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And it is cute, antagonistic replies just fall just millimeters short of hijacking a string and your manor of building strawmen to kill that puts you cross path with me.
 
Ok - one side takes the literal interpretation the other a symbolic interpretation. Neither are wrong and neither are entirely correct. I personally tend to think the mark is a symbolic but then hey I could be wrong. Lets not get aggressive over a text which in all honesty can be interpreted both ways. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Remember the religious Jews were so stuck up in their interpretation of the Messiah, they could not recognize Him when He stood in front of them. Lets learn from each other and not defend our prophetic interpretations in a way that brings dishonour to Christ. After all this thread is not exactly about essential Christian doctrine where our salvation is at stake. We are debating the possible meaning of a number mentioned only once in the entire Bible. If it was that important then surely there would be a theme running through the entire Bible like the Messianic theme.

The book of Revelation falls into the prophetic genre which by nature is very difficult to interpret because we need to know what the symbols and metaphors meant to the original writers and readers. One law of hermenuetics is that the interpretation of the text cannot mean something different than what is was originally intended to mean otherwise we use eisogesis instead of exogesis - we read what we want into the text.
 
Exactly, and it is only though civil discussion that we can progress in our studies.....this is a study board, not a lecture board.
I was looking to see what the general consensus is regarding Biblical references to 'Earth' might be. The sea is generally a stormy turbulent domain often associated with evil. It seems the Earth on the other hand might represent relative tranquility or stability.
While searching I found an interesting article at :
http://www.spindleworks.com/library/hoeksma/behold33.htm
This guy was, among other things a professor at Calvin university so he must be worth a read :D
Blessings calvin
 
calvin said:
If we are to just skim through the texts of Revelation and just brush everything off as being literal and straight forward, then I ask:
Which sea does the first beast emerge from? Is it the Aegean sea, Black Sea, the Red sea, the sea of Galilee, the Coral sea? Which?
Which acreage of land does the second beast come from? What country should we keep an eye on for the coming of the 2nd beast?
So many question, so few answers :(
No, I'm not mocking scripture nor any individual. If it can be fairly said that I am mocking anything; it is tardy, sloppy Bible study.
2Tim. 2:15 Kjv
Prov. 27:17 Iron.....I wonder if it was just cast iron in those days (brittle and mostly unworkable like dried clay) , or carbon steel which would be both malleable and to some extent, ductile.

blessings,
calvin
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Your comment was............
"No, I'm not mocking scripture nor any individual."

Then you said.....................
"If it can be fairly said that I am mocking anything; it is tardy, sloppy Bible study."

So then by your own words you are in fact mocking both.

I have to tell you with a restricted mind, and I am not looking for an argument but individuals such as yourself drive me crazy. By that I am referring to your "critical" attitude.

I know you mean well, I know you are probably a nice person, but that "critical" attitude just drives me nuts.

You sit back and read what others say, critique it, question it, criticize it and then ask questions that do not mean a lot of anything. If you want to bring up something or ask a question, then why not just do it without being critical of the person who said it.

My whole life I have seen this take place. A person will not play football for his school, but will sit and watch and question every play the coach calls. DADGUMMED IT...PLAY THE GAME!

People will sit and watch me trim my bushes, and when I am done they ask why I did this and why didn't I do that. DADGUMMED IT.....TRIM THE BUSHES!

People will complain about the wars we fight and point out how this commander did the wrong thing and that one didn't do the right thing. DADGUMMED IT.....FIGHT THE WAR!

People will complain about this person in political office and that person and critique their every move.
DADGUMMED IT.....RUN FOR OFFICE.

If the people posting their thoughts and work on line here are not up to your standard........
DADGUMMED IT.........YOU DO THE POSTING OF YOUR OWN THOUGHTS.

I know I will probably get repremaned for such honest and rebukfull (?) comments, but this one thing that really bothers me.

Now for the question you asked. WHAT IS THE SEA?

In Rev. 13:1 it is Satan who brings this individual out of the sea. In Scriptures the "sea" is a picture of the nations of the world, of mankind, like the restless sea.

In Re. 13:11 the 2nd beast or the "false prophet" comes up out of the EARTH. It is naturelly assumed (not proven) that means the false prophet will come out of Palestine/Israel. He is a religious man who leads the world to worship the A/C and IMO Israel would never accept him unless he had come from their land and was one of them.

NO, I am not going to look up and produce the Scriptures. That is for anyone who has the desire to do the study to follow up on.
 
I did a quick word study on "sea". In almost every occurence in the bible it refers to the sea in it's literal sense. Hmmm, I know the traditional interpretation says that in Rev. 13 it refers to the nations (I have always agreed with this) - but why would every other occurence refer to sea in the literal sense?

Not trying to be controversial, just trying to apply basic hermenuetics.

G2281

θάλασσα

thálassa

; gen. thalássēs, fem. noun from háls (n.f., see aigialós [G123]), sea. Sea, as contrasted with the gḗ (G1093), land (Mat_23:15; Act_4:24; Sept.: Gen_1:10) or perhaps more strictly as contrasted with the shore. Another Gr. word, pélagos (G3989), is also translated "sea," but there is a difference. The latter word occurring in Mat_18:6 and Act_27:5
represents the vast uninterrupted expanse of open water.
(I)

Generally, and as implying the vicinity of land (
Mat_13:47; Mat_18:6, "expanse of the sea" [a.t.]; Mar_9:42; Luk_21:25; Rom_9:27; 2Co_11:26; Rev_18:17; Sept.: Gen_22:17; Isa_5:30); the ocean (Rev_20:13; Rev_21:1); the land and sea standing for the whole earth (Rev_7:1-3; Rev_12:12). The heaven, the earth, and the sea standing for the universe (Act_4:24; Act_14:15; Rev_5:13; Sept.: Exo_20:11; Hag_2:7). Poetically, of the waters above the firmament on which the throne of God is said to be founded, crystal sea (Rev_4:6; Rev_15:2 [cf. Gen_1:7; Psa_29:10; Psa_148:4]). See 1Ki_7:23; 2Ki_25:13
.
(II)
Of particular seas and lakes:
(A)
By implication the Mediterranean ( Act_10:6, Act_10:32; Act_17:14; Sept.: Gen_13:14; Jon_1:4
).
(B)
The Red Sea ( Act_7:36). Used in an absolute sense (1Co_10:1-2; Sept.: Exo_13:18; Exo_14:2
).
(C)
The Sea of Galilee or Tiberias ( Mat_4:18; Mar_1:16; Joh_21:1). Used in an absolute sense (Mat_4:15; Joh_6:16-19; Sept.: Num_34:11
).
Deriv
.: dithálassos (G1337), between two seas; parathalássios (G3864
), along the sea.
Syn
.: límnē (G3041), lake; kólpos (G2859), a bay; aigialós (G123), shore; parálios (G3882
), beside the sea.
Ant
.: xērós (G3584), dry earth; gḗ (G1093
), land.
 
Thank you so much Kevin for your input. I can't see that you are being controversial at all.
The information you have supplied will provide opportunity for much fruitful study.
blessings,
calvin
 
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