Revelation Proportions Observed

This thread is getting very close to being eliminated.

Be nice, kiddies - the sandbox is big enough for everyone to play in without kicking sand in other persons faces.



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Major said:
Post #14 from Skipper........
"I’m actually more interested in MM’s interpretation of his original post. I know he left it open-ended for others to share what they think of the apparent absence of the word “church” from Revelation but I wonder what you take that to mean."
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Ahhh. Well, Major, as you had already discerned from the glaring implications from what is stated in the OP, yours and my take on it leads to a conclusion that's a topic not allowed for discussion since it invariably leads some people, those who can't seem to control their anger and vehemence, the rule exists to keep such from launching things into nastiness rooted more in strife than mere conversation, questions and just plain enjoyable encouragement.

However, speaking of the absence for any mention of the Church anywhere in the Tribulation narrative from Revelation 6 to 19, I've heard some attempt to claim that "saints" is a suitable substitute for Church, with which I would agree...to a point The problem is that Paul switched back and forth throughout his epistles, and the deafening silence for mention of the Church anywhere throughout all those chapters in Revelation, well, that span of silence in relation to the Church is most striking...to say the least.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Ahhh. Well, Major, as you had already discerned from the glaring implications from what is stated in the OP, yours and my take on it leads to a conclusion that's a topic not allowed for discussion since it invariably leads some people, those who can't seem to control their anger and vehemence, the rule exists to keep such from launching things into nastiness rooted more in strife than mere conversation, questions and just plain enjoyable encouragement.

However, speaking of the absence for any mention of the Church anywhere in the Tribulation narrative from Revelation 6 to 19, I've heard some attempt to claim that "saints" is a suitable substitute for Church, with which I would agree...to a point The problem is that Paul switched back and forth throughout his epistles, and the deafening silence for mention of the Church anywhere throughout all those chapters in Revelation, well, that span of silence in relation to the Church is most striking...to say the least.

MM
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Yes. But then our moderator have to have something to do to keep gettting ll the money they are paid. If we all follow the rules all the time, what would they have to do????;)

IMHO..........the word "Saints" is used interchangeably to describe the believers in God.

Daniel 7:18........
"But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

The word "Saint/Saints" in describing believers is seen 100 times in the Bible and 36 of them in the Old Test! I am not that smart but I do have GOOGLE!

Now, I am one who believes that the saved we see in the Revelation AFTER chapter #4 will b come from the Jewish population who have not heard the gospel. Through the preaching of the TWO Jewish witnesses and the 144 k Jewish men, they will come to Christ.

The word "SAINT" was 1st used to describe God's people in Deut. 33:2...........
"Deuteronomy 33:2.....
"And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them."
 
In post #22, my comments were direct not at the rules being wrong, but that it's sad that rules against various topics must exist on account of some.

My apologies for not having worded it better. I was caught off guard today by some other things that has me distracted.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
In post #22, my comments were direct not at the rules being wrong, but that it's sad that rules against various topics must exist on account of some.

My apologies for not having worded it better. I was caught off guard today by some other things that has me distracted.

MM
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Me too! I have been distracted all week after my wife said......"You are still cute"!

th
 
Musicmaster said:
In post #22, my comments were direct not at the rules being wrong, but that it's sad that rules against various topics must exist on account of some.
My apologies for not having worded it better. I was caught off guard today by some other things that has me distracted.

MM
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Major said:
I have to say........WHAT! I am missing something because I do not see any sand on any faces.
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Hello MM and Major;

Hopefully my personal pm to you both will help bring about resolve and understanding as we go forward.

God bless you both.
 
Musings and more musings...

I recall various conversations I've had with others about the book of Revelation, and hearing so many admit their avoidance of that book, and how I personally overcame my dislike of that book by actually studying it in relation to many other areas of the Bible.

Drinking my coffee this morning, some things rang through my mind that I've heard from others who believe differently on various aspects of that book, which is fine. Eschatology is one of many peripheral issues not worth arguing senselessly over, so please keep that in mind.

What I have heard at various times is that followers of Christ (The Church) will be left here on earth by the Lord through half or almost all the Tribulation because the Church has always been subjected to persecution...

What I couldn't help but to observe about the book of Revelation is that, apart from it being primarily a revelation of Christ Jesus, it doesn't show to us just persecutions, but also the Divine elements of the wrath of the Lord that will be in direct contact upon ALL the flesh of those who are still alive on this earth. This drives home to me the seeming pettiness for the off-handed brushing aside of this important fact as a defense for the idea that the Church will indeed suffer the wrath of the Most High, in spite of what's written about His love for His Church.

I don't mean to disturb the peace in anyone's morning over this. I just wanted to throw out there my own incomprehension at some of the claims I've encountered when measured up beside actual statements the Lord inspired to be written by the apostles and the prophets. The very first horseman of the four casts out the very beginnings of God's wrath, which is the conquering of nations and people's. That's not persecution initiated at the hands of men. That's right from the Lord at the opening of the first seal. I mean, let's call it what it is. Had it not been the very Hand of the Lord releasing that entity, that conquering would have to be initiated by the strength of man's own arm, and no man has that power in and of himself. It has to be of Divine origin, as Revelation 6 makes abundantly clear.

The engagement I will have with others on this will be limited to this aspect alone, not the Rapture or anything else. Just the persecutions versus the actual wrath that begins with the first horseman, for example, and what follows thereafter in the saga of what is to come upon this earth and its inhabitants.

MM
 
Saints and Elect are synonyms of the same term. The Greek Eklektos, which means "chosen", refers to the Elect.

Saints or those who are born again and follow Jesus. Saints is rooted from the Greek Hagiazo.

Saints or Elect are the body of Christ, Christians applied to the church.
 
Elect refers to members of the church age body of Christ. Saints refers to Old Testament Hebrew followers of God and Kingdom age Jews who follow Christ (post church dispensation which includes the Tribulation and the Millennium).
 
BibleLover said:
Elect refers to members of the church age body of Christ. Saints refers to Old Testament Hebrew followers of God and Kingdom age Jews who follow Christ (post church dispensation which includes the Tribulation and the Millennium).
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Amen, BibleLover;

The beautiful thing is God's Word (words) can expand into other areas of the Scriptures.

God bless you.
 
BibleLover said:
Elect refers to members of the church age body of Christ. Saints refers to Old Testament Hebrew followers of God and Kingdom age Jews who follow Christ (post church dispensation which includes the Tribulation and the Millennium).
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Hello brothers;

For many of us who are still growing as disciples, please break down and provide with Scriptures the Church age body of Christ and Saints. What does this mean for the Christian and Christ as Head? What is the responsibility (lack of a better word) of following Him?

God bless you and thank you for sharing.

Bob
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello brothers;

For many of us who are still growing as disciples, please break down and provide with Scriptures the Church age body of Christ and Saints. What does this mean for the Christian and Christ as Head? What is the responsibility (lack of a better word) of following Him?

God bless you and thank you for sharing.

Bob
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The church age dispensation began during the 2nd chapter of Acts and ends during the 4th chapter of Revelation. The dispensation of Law (Exodus to Acts) preceeded the church age. The kingdom dispensation, Revelation 4 to 20, follows the church age.
 
Musicmaster said:
Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" is in the NT texts, and it appears 74 time.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many time the noun "saints" is in the NT texts, and it appears 63 times.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "church" appears in those chapters ZERO times.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "saints" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "saints" appears 13 times.​

That's a proportion of ZERO to 13.

What's the big deal about this?

Well, either John, one of the twelve, and/or the Lord suddenly lost any tast for calling the Church the Church in those chapters of Revelation, or the proportions tell us something, considering that the Church is addressed more than "saints" throughout all the NT.

Take that in whatever way you wish, according to personal dogmas, but this is an interesting set of statistics that screams at anyone who seeks to look deeper into the scriptures than just merely reading them like a romance novel.

Now, without anyone arguing about rapture or any other of the many topics not allowed for discussion, what do you see in these statistical indicators?

As for me, I'll await your inputs. Numbers throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, have always given to us indicators of importance. Numbers heave meaning.

What say you?

MM
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I've never understood why the absence of the word ekklesia in these chapters catches the attention of some.
Why should that be the specific word used?

In 11:18 it's "people who revere your name."

In 12:17 "...those who keep God's commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

13:10 "calls for patient endurance and faithfulness of God's people."

14:12 is similar and includes those "those who keep His commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

16:15 reads "blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed."

Most of the other chapters depict scenes in heaven and mention those who are present during these events... Neither ekklesia nor any other moniker is given to show them as being present in heaven observing the heavenly events... The faithful are mentioned only when speaking of events occuring on earth.
 
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Indentured Servant said:
I've never understood why the absence of the word ekklesia in these chapters catches the attention of some. Why should that be the specific word used? In 11:18 it's "people who revere your name." In 12:17 "...those who keep God's commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."13:10 "calls for patient endurance and faithfulness of God's people." 14:12 is similar and includes those "those who keep His commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 16:15 reads "blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed." Most of the other chapters depict scenes in heaven and mention those who are present during these events... Neither ekklesia nor any other moniker is given to show them as being present in heaven observing the heavenly events... The faithful are mentioned only when speaking of events occuring on earth.
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Hello Indentured Servant;

I don't know. Is it just this commentary or other similar readings that you have come across?

Please elaborate more why the Biblical ekklesia (gathering of believers) should or not be the specific word used?

I have some thoughts but want to hear more where you're coming from.

God bless you, Indentured Servant.











 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Indentured Servant;

I don't know. Is it just this commentary or other similar readings that you have come across?

Please elaborate more why the Biblical ekklesia (gathering of believers) should or not be the specific word used?

I have some thoughts but want to hear more where you're coming from.

God bless you, Indentured Servant
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bobinfaith said:
I used to hear it once in a while listening to radio broadcasts of sermons.
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My point was merely that I didn't understand why is should matter which moniker is used. All of us have read through the book (at least dozens of times...) and can see where followers of Christ are mentioned, and the event that is taking place in each instance. I've never understood the reasoning for highlighting a word in Scripture because it isn't being used in a specific portion of Scripture.


 
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