Shake Off The Creature

Hey Sue,

I'd like to ask for some clarification on a few things from your post, but I do think you've got some interesting insights as well. I was speaking with a pastor a few years back, in Canada, who was really worked up about some potential upcoming changes in the law. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something like, churches were classified as public clubs, and some upcoming change would restrict what could or couldn't be said in public clubs. So this pastor was worried that churches would lose their buildings, and pulpit preaching was going to become illegal, so what would become of the nation? I remember thinking a pretty similar thing to what you seem to be saying -- the church doesn't need government support to be the church. We're not going to stop doing God's work just because we don't have our own buildings. The situation that pastor was worried about is not the situation now, but it could be, and probably will be, one day. So do we fight to keep what we have, or do we roll with the punches, and think up different ways to keep on doing the work of the church?

These days, I work closely with the Salvation Army, which accepts financial support from the government and various organisations. The money they get from the gov and companies is used for specific humanitarian endeavors... disaster relief, family counseling, disability support work, prison chaplaincy, that sort of thing. I personally don't see the way the Salvos work with the government to be a bad thing. To me, it means that the Salvos are publicly respected for their track record of serving people, and making good use of the funds with which they've been entrusted. In my experience, the gospel message the workers are passionate about giving is not compromised by the Salvos' work alongside the government or other organisations. The truth is being spoken, and people are being saved. So... I guess I'm struggling somewhat understanding what you mean when describing the institutionalised church as turning to the the gov as its head instead of Christ, being idolatrous, etc. I don't live in America -- what's going on with the church in the USA? Maybe you can list some examples of what you mean? Is the message of the gospel being compromised by something the church is doing?

Also, there seems to be a secondary discussion going on here, which is something I've been thinking about for a number of years: how do we know when we're being spoken to by the Holy Spirit? How do we distinguish the Spirit's guidance from something that may be, say, a strong and convincing urge that comes from ourselves? I have, and I'm sure most of us here have experienced this as well, heard plenty of people claiming to be speaking by the Spirit, when what they're saying clearly contradicts Biblical teaching -- but they're so convinced about what they're saying. My experiences witnessing that sort of thing have made me very wary of what I think may be the Spirit's guidance -- I don't want to believe something that just comes from myself; surely there are ways of testing the validity of what we feel may be the Spirit's voice. I've been convinced the Spirit was speaking to me before, and later realised I was wrong -- or more specifically, the Spirit was speaking to me, but I had interpreted the meaning incorrectly, dangerously. When we hear the Spirit, then, how do we know that it is the Spirit, and secondly, how do we know if we've correctly interpreted what the Spirit has given us? I've talked to people on this forum before about Acts 21, where lots of people receive a prophecy that Paul will be taken prisoner in Rome. Everyone agrees on the message, but not everyone agrees on the interpretation... actually, everyone but Paul interprets it as a warning for him to avoid Rome. So how do we deal with messages from the Spirit? How do we test their validity, and how do we know how to correctly interpret them?

Roads.........I too have been told that Canada has or is about to institute the restrictions that your friend has told you. It would mean that preachers can not speak against homosexuality or abortion as it would constitute "hate speech".

I have also been told that England has already passed a law of the same kind of restrictions aimed at the church.

Have you heard anything such as that?

As for the Holy Spirit and His leading, that is what I have been trying to impress upon Sue. Sometimes, when we want something so bad, we force it into being the truth but to do that means the truth has already been compromised.

Blessings!
 
Roads, I can't tell you what the Salvation Army should do or not do with regard to receiving aid from the Canadian government, but I do know what scripture teaches, and all I can do is share with you what scripture teaches and trust the Lord Jesus will lead you to the right decision. The first one the Lord Jesus brought to mind was this one:

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,

“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.” ~ 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

All throughout scripture the Lord reprimanded his people for mixing with the pagan society, and for turning to humans, the strength of man (armies; outside resources; other nations) for their help rather than in trusting in the Lord to supply all that they needed. Here are some verses that coincide with that teaching:

Ps. 118:8-9: It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in man.
It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in princes.


Ps. 146:3-4: Do not put your trust in princes,
in mortal men, who cannot save.
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.


Isaiah 40:23: He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.

Hosea 8:4: They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. With their silver and gold they make idols for themselves to their own destruction.

Hosea 13:10: Where is your king, that he may save you? Where are your rulers in all your towns, of whom you said, ‘Give me a king and princes’?

Psalm 147:10-11: His pleasure is not in the strength of the horse,
nor his delight in the legs of the warrior;
the LORD delights in those who fear him,
who put their hope in his unfailing love.


That is all I have on that subject with regard to your particular situation with the Salvation Army receiving federal or government aid. I trust you will take these scriptures to the Lord in prayer, and that you will inquire of him as to how they apply to your particular situation.
 
Last edited:
It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that because what YOU WANT to happen (USA in the end times) is not found in the Scriptures we are then free to come up with whatever we want to even the advice of others.

Your quote from comment #7.............
"So, we can either use our own intellect and reasoning, or that of others, to determine these things,".

The BLOG you produce is well written and I congratulate you on your efforts. I am only saying that what you are writing is not Biblical when we force what we think into what the Lord has said.

This is one of the most dangerous practices of those who seek to explain end time events. We must be carful to tell it like God wrote it, not what we wanted Him to write.

Major, although it is true that you quoted my exact words, even though you did not complete the sentence, you misquoted me in the fact that by leaving out the context of the quote and the remainder of the sentence, and then inserting the quote here, as you did, in your context, you imply that I was suggesting that it is ok to use our own intellect and reasoning or that of others to determine these things, which is suggested by your own comments here where you basically accused me of doing so. And, that is not so, either that I am ok with that, or that I was suggesting that as a means to determine these things, or that I did that. I don't want the USA to be Babylon! This is something I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me many, many times over. The Lord began speaking to me about the USA back in November of 2004. I was not studying end times, nor was I looking into end times, nor was I looking at where the USA fit with the end times. I was merely reading the word of God in my quiet times with him like I do every (most) day. Since then he has given me about 2700 devotionals to write, many of which were on the subject of the USA and God's judgments against the government here and against the institutional church and his idolatrous and adulterous church in this nation. He called me in 2006 to write these things down and to put them on the internet so that is what I have been doing. I believe God is warning his church in this nation that judgment is coming, and that they need to get their hearts right with God (See Rev 2-3 for parallels). I believe he is calling the church here in America to repent of her sins of adultery and idolatry, to come out from underneath the USA government, and to return to her Lord as her only husband, head and King. And, that is why I do what I do. I love the church!!!! I see the condition she is in. I love my Lord, and my heart's desire is for him alone. And, so I obey him.
 
I agree also that the USA is a total spiritual mess. BUT again, I am not trying to argue, I am simply saying that the USA is not found in the Scriptures. It may very well be but we can not say with confidence that it is. I listed all the countries that God has said will be involved but the USA is not one of them WE can MAKE it one by our own manipulations and thinking BUT we can not find any Scripture to use as a basis for confirming such a comment.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16:
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.

Matthew 13:10-17:
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

John 14:25-26: “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

2 Tim. 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts, he shows us the heart of God, and he makes practical his word to our everyday lives. He is completely consistent. He spoke to the people in Bible times about their own life situations and about their governments, and about their leaders, and about the false teachers of their time, etc. The word of God is alive, it is active, and it speaks to our hearts in all practicality today to our world, and to our personal lives and experiences. And, God is speaking to my heart and to the hearts of many of his children and he is revealing to them, not new revelation, but the reality of what has already been revealed in scripture, i.e. he gives us the practical application of his word to our lives and world today. I live in the USA. He chose me to speak these things to his church, I believe, because judgment is imminent, and because the church is a mess spiritually, and he is calling her to repent and to obey his teachings. I love my Lord with all my heart, and I will continue to speak what I believe he has laid on my heart to speak until he closes that door, and then my job will be finished.

I make no claims to perfection or to complete understanding of all that he shows me, but I pour my heart out in prayer before him before I share what he gives me to write each day, and I believe he guides me in what to say. Every day (nearly) he puts a song in my heart which goes right along with where I am reading in scripture for that day. Only God could do that! I could not coordinate such a thing in my own flesh a couple of times, much less over 2,000 times, most likely. He gives me songs to write (over 100 now). The tunes just come to me. Never wrote whole songs before (only once before put a tune to a poem). Never had tunes come to me before, other than that one time (25 years ago). I write the tunes, he gives me the accompanying notes, and they blend together. Never did that before 2 years ago. Then, I sit down and pray for words, and he gives me the words, and they fit perfectly with the music. Only God could do that! I am not gifted that way naturally. He gives me names of places and people I never heard of before in my sleep or as I wake, and when I check them out, I find out they are real people and places and they usually are in the news.

He leads me to news stories so he can show me what is going on in the world. Honestly, I never really paid much attention before. I didn't think I was smart enough to understand it all. He sent me back to college after 30 years away. I graduated high school with a 1.4 average, and had an accumulative average of 2.5 my first time in college, but this time I got straight A's. I thought I couldn't do it. I thought I didn't have the smarts for it. I battled with every subject for the first couple of semesters, convinced I could not learn. Yet, what I learned is that, in the power and working of the Spirit within me, I could learn. And, he used that to prepare me for this ministry, because he has stretched me way beyond what I would have ever imagined I would ever do. I didn't want to study end times, because I didn't understand it. So, he used me, a person who thought she didn't know very much, and didn't know how to learn or didn't believe she could learn, and he showed me that in HIM, he could teach me. And, boy, has he been teaching me!! And, stretching me far beyond what I would have ever thought possible. This ministry did not originate with me. I was doing something else at the time when he called me. Yet, I know more than I know most things that this is the call of God on my life, that I am obeying him to the best of my understanding, and that I am trusting him daily to give me what he has for me to share. And, I leave the results in His hands. To God be the glory! Amen!
 
Hey Sue,

So... I guess I'm struggling somewhat understanding what you mean when describing the institutionalised church as turning to the the gov as its head instead of Christ, being idolatrous, etc. I don't live in America -- what's going on with the church in the USA? Maybe you can list some examples of what you mean? Is the message of the gospel being compromised by something the church is doing?

Roads, the church, as you know, is a spiritual entity. We, the people of God, comprise the church. The true church is not an institution of humankind (did not originate with man), nor is it a human business (corporation), a social club, etc. Christ alone is to be its head, and the church is supposed to operate as Christ determined, such as is exemplified for us in the early part of the book of Acts. The church was not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, nor were they to look to human princes for protection or help. They were to rely upon the teachings of scripture and the testimony of the Holy Spirit of God within them to lead, guide, counsel, direct, etc. in the way they should go.

The problem with the institutional church here in America is really two-fold: 1) They willfully chose to come underneath the protection of the US government via the 501 (c) (3) tax exempt status, and they incorporated as a business underneath the government. I believe scripture prohibits this. What that did, in essence, was place the government in a position where it has and can determine what can be preached from the pulpit, and can prohibit messages it deems "hate crimes," although Biblical as the messages may be, and it can tell the church who they must hire, and what kind of insurance they must provide, i.e. specifically related to having to supply insurance to cover birth control under Obamacare, I believe. And, it is only going to get worse. We can see it going that direction in the military, and the controls of the government have been increasing rapidly over the people of this land, even as seen with the recent government shutdown, although I don't believe you can believe everything you read or hear in the news. So, by placing the government in that position, willfully and by choice, it put the government in the place of God over the church, i.e. if God says to speak against something and the government says, "NO!, then the church must abide by the government instead of God if they want to keep their status of tax exemption and remain a corporation underneath the government.

2) Going along with that, the church has turned into BIG BUSINESS and is marketed much in the same way as human businesses are marketed. I took business classes this last time in college, and I took marketing classes, so I know of what I am speaking, plus my husband and I have been in several of these churches in various cities, and we have seen how they have become more like businesses of humankind in place of being spiritual entities following after the teaching of scripture and the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit. Many pastor reads marketing book after marketing book on how to build his church. My husband and I were church planters for a while, too, so we know the training given to many of these pastors. We were told to use "needy" people until we got our "business" up and going, and then we were to weed them out. Wow! Our ministry was to the hurting, lonely, needy, etc. - the despised and rejected of the world. And, I have been the recipient of this "weeding out" too, as one pastor told me he was warned against people like me, i.e. he was warned against people with strong convictions, and his training told him he should get rid of me, so he did. I have seen pastors lie to their people, manipulate them, use gimmicks and tricks to try to get people into their churches, use worldly movies which (in full) have sex scenes in them promoting illicit sexual relations, but they use a clip they feel illustrates a godly principle. They use worldly methods to reach worldly people for what? Not for Christ!

They water down the gospel and they make it more palatable to the listener. They make it comfortable and non-threatening, i.e. non-judgmental, etc. leaving out words such as "sin", "repentance," "obedience," etc. so that people are not offended. My logo here offended one pastoral staff and so they removed it from our ministry saying it did not represent what their church was about. The picture is of the cross of Christ being available for us to come to it and for us to be crucified with Christ, and then to be resurrected with him, too, as he is resurrected (See Gal. 2:20). They don't tell people that coming to Christ means they have to die to sin and be made alive with Christ to new lives free from slavery to sin and free to walk in the Spirit and in Christ's righteousness, all because of what Christ did for us in dying for us, and in being resurrected so we could go free. And, so we have so many, many professing Christians in our churches who are indistinguishable between them and the people of the world, because they live just like the world lives, because no one is telling them that faith in Jesus Christ means death, and that we have to die if we want to live (See Lu. 9:23-25; Eph. 4:17-24; Rom. 6; 1 John; Gal. 2:20, et al).

That is pretty much the gist of it. The institutional church in America has made a covenant with the government, which God does not approve of, and she has taken for herself other lovers, and has become spiritually adulterous and idolatrous in that she lives so much like the world and follows after the ways of the world and the teachings of humankind. This does not describe all church congregations or every individual believer in America, but I believe a vast majority of today's church here in America fits in this category, and many, many people in America, even many renowned pastors and teachers, are seeing this and are calling it out and are calling to the church to repent and to obey God. A young lady told me the other day something to the effect that she has noticed that the closer she gets to her Lord, the more disenchanted she has become with the institutional church, i.e. the closer she gets to Jesus the more she sees how messed up the church really is and how it is in such need of revival. I pray all the time for God to revive his church. I believe he will, but that it may have to come through some really hard times, and I believe it will come through our government, I mean they will turn against the church, not that they were ever for her, but the church in the US is going to suffer some persecution that will bring her to revival, I believe.
 
Hey Sue,

Also, there seems to be a secondary discussion going on here, which is something I've been thinking about for a number of years: how do we know when we're being spoken to by the Holy Spirit? How do we distinguish the Spirit's guidance from something that may be, say, a strong and convincing urge that comes from ourselves? I have, and I'm sure most of us here have experienced this as well, heard plenty of people claiming to be speaking by the Spirit, when what they're saying clearly contradicts Biblical teaching -- but they're so convinced about what they're saying. My experiences witnessing that sort of thing have made me very wary of what I think may be the Spirit's guidance -- I don't want to believe something that just comes from myself; surely there are ways of testing the validity of what we feel may be the Spirit's voice. I've been convinced the Spirit was speaking to me before, and later realised I was wrong -- or more specifically, the Spirit was speaking to me, but I had interpreted the meaning incorrectly, dangerously. When we hear the Spirit, then, how do we know that it is the Spirit, and secondly, how do we know if we've correctly interpreted what the Spirit has given us? I've talked to people on this forum before about Acts 21, where lots of people receive a prophecy that Paul will be taken prisoner in Rome. Everyone agrees on the message, but not everyone agrees on the interpretation... actually, everyone but Paul interprets it as a warning for him to avoid Rome. So how do we deal with messages from the Spirit? How do we test their validity, and how do we know how to correctly interpret them?

That's a tough question. I dealt with this somewhat in reply #25 to Major. What comes to mind first are these verses from 1 Corinthians 13: For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. ...For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I know there are varied interpretations of this, so I will share what I believe this is saying. While we live on this earth in these human bodies our understanding will never be complete, but when Jesus returns for his bride, and we are with him face to face, then we will understand the things that now we don't yet have complete understanding for. I say that merely to encourage you that we are not always going to understand everything.

Ok, moving on from that... I agree that there are many voices out there claiming they have heard from God. And, the Bible teaches us that we should test what they say against his word, and I believe also against God's divine character and will. In other words, if someone is teaching something clearly contradictory to the teachings of Christ and of the apostles, and clearly in direct opposition of God's revealed character and will, then we should test it. Not everyone who says he hears from God hears from God. And, yes, in our humanness, it is possible to get things wrong, because we are influenced by so many other things, including our culture, our upbringing, our religious training, etc. We should always be learning and growing. The Lord Jesus has certainly shown me over the years where what I believed was the true meaning of something was not the true meaning, but it was just something that had been taught me and so I believed it. So, I have learned to go into the scriptures with an open heart and mind to hear from God and for him to show me where my thinking might be wrong or where I learned something wrong, and asking him to show me the truth.

On the subject of how we know it is the Spirit speaking, the scriptures teach that Jesus' sheep know his voice, they listen and they follow (obey) him. And, then the scriptures I shared with Major about things being spiritually discerned and of us having the mind of Christ and how the Lord Jesus shows us things that the natural mind cannot accept and how the Holy Spirit has been given to us to teach us all things and that the word of God is alive and active and it still speaks to our hearts. I believe that as we listen and we obey that God teaches us more, and then as we listen and obey, he teaches us more, and the more time we spend with him, and the more we listen to his voice and the more we obey him, and the more he shows us from his word we learn more and more to recognize his voice speaking. Yet, there are always other voices out there speaking, too, so we must pray for spiritual discernment so we do recognize his voice. Also, when he shows me something over and over again, and it is completely consistent, and it is tested against the word of God, then I know it is him speaking, and so I listen and I obey what he teaches me. Believe me, I pray much through everything he gives me to write, and I ask for the Holy Spirit of God to give me the words to speak, and I pray that if I would even have a wrong thought or would begin to say something not from him that he would stop me. He has stopped me before. There have been times I was writing and all of a sudden the flow of thought would just cease, so I would pray, and he would direct me to delete a sentence or a paragraph, and then we would continue. I remain open to him all the time to show me if I have anything wrong because I don't want to ever share from my quiet times with him something not from him.
 
Hey again Sue,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful, and prayerful response, I've been meaning to get back to you but I haven't been around very much lately.

Unequally Yoked

I think generally I'm on the same page as you. I grew up on a Bible college campus, and in the campus church, I did personally witness some of the things you're talking about -- specifically, a "gospel message" without a call to repentance, and the use of marketing techniques to "brand" a church, and lots of other things that, by the end of high school, caused me also to feel disillusioned about the institutionalized church. Although, I don't think those particular problems came from that church's desire to stay "tax exempt," I think it came from a misguided attempt to be "emergent" and "seeker-friendly." It was a few years before I was able to understand the distinction between a church institution and the church: body of Christ. So, I think your grief over what's being done and said by different church institutions is from the Spirit; what followers of Christ wouldn't be grieved over the teaching of a gospel different from the one through which they were saved?

I've been considering for a number of years what that passage in 1 Cor means, specifically, what is meant by "unequally yoked." Does it mean I shouldn't have, say, a business partnership with an non-Christian? Does it mean I shouldn't have non-Christian friends? Does it mean I can't be employed by a secular organization, or that a "Christian" organization can't hire non-Christian staff? I've seen the passage used all of those ways, and others. In the actual passage, it seems that the Corinthians had some sort of involvements with people that caused them to split their "affections" (v. 11) between things that were holy and things that were fleshly (7:1). I have worked with lots of Christian organizations in several countries, and where funding comes from is always a concern on some level, sometimes more than others. But I have never, personally, witnessed the source of funding to cause any workers to split their "affections," or compromise the message of the gospel. As such, I've, fortunately, never had the opportunity to confront anyone about being "unequally yoked" in that regard.

The way I see it is, if teachers in a church feel pressured to change what they teach based on their organisation's status with the government, they have four general options. They can:
1) Conform to the gov's requirements
2) Maintain their status, but ignore the gov's requirements, and face whatever consequences may follow
3) Maintain their status, but fight a legal/political battle to keep autonomy over what's being said in their organisation
4) Drop their status with the gov

So I guess my personal conclusion about the matter has been, if I ever do witness someone compromising the message of the gospel in order for their organisation to remain tax except, yes, then I would feel comfortable about confronting them about being idolatrous, unequally yoked, trusting in princes. I wouldn't feel comfortable about confronting my brothers and sisters using the "idolatrous, unequally yoked, trusting in princes" imagery if they were doing anything besides (1) from the four options I listed. The actual problem, it seems to me, is not that churches have a "tax exempt" status with the government, it's that there is a gospel message being taught that's not really the gospel message, which is a genuine problem, but I haven't personally seen that particular problem stem from a church's desire to maintain their status with the government. Yet. If you've personally witnessed it happening, then I'll certainly empathise with your grief over it, and understand your desire to confront those who've made that decision.
 
Roads.........I too have been told that Canada has or is about to institute the restrictions that your friend has told you. It would mean that preachers can not speak against homosexuality or abortion as it would constitute "hate speech".

I have also been told that England has already passed a law of the same kind of restrictions aimed at the church.

Have you heard anything such as that?

It's been a few years since I've been back to Canada, but I haven't heard of anything like that actually being put into place, although there's been talk about it for many years now.
 
Back
Top