The beast... Can it be Christ?

#1
The beast... Can it be Christ?

This is broken off the Revelation thread. As I have mentioned, in this method, everything speaks of Christ. What is the implication?

When I say that Adam is Christ, or that Cain and Abel are Christ, or that Moses is Christ, am I saying that they are literally Christ? Of course not.

So when I say the beast is Christ, I am NOT saying that he is literally Christ. I am saying that God has used literal history to paint pictures of Christ throughout the Bible and he continues to do it in Revelation. I would go so far, based on my experience, that if a book does not have hidden pictures of Christ within it, it might not be scripture. It might be these pictures that are the fingerprints of God on his word. But that is another topic.

In this thread, I will only address the following verses, though you may do what you wish.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 
#2
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.

In sensus plenior, God undeniably links wisdom to the searching out of sensus plenior.
Pr 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pr 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings (riddles).
As is the case with any doctrine, it must be supported by two or three witnesses.
1. Joseph was called wise because he interpreted the symbols of the dream:
Ge 41:39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
2. Wisdom was required to make Aaron’s garments. Why wisdom? Because knowledge of the symbols embedded in the garments was required.
Ex 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.
3. Wisdom was required of the craftsmen for the tabernacle because knowledge of the symbols embedded in the tabernacle and its implements was required.
Ex 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Ex 31:6 And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;
Ex 35:25 And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.
Ex 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats’ hair.
Ex 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
Ex 35:35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.
Ex 36:1 Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the LORD put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.
4. Joab chose a wise woman to confront the king with symbolism.
2Sa 14:2 And Joab sent to Tekoah, and fetched thence a wise woman, and said unto her, I pray thee, feign thyself to be a mourner, and put on now mourning apparel, and anoint not thyself with oil, but be as a woman that had a long time mourned for the dead:
5. God gave Solomon wisdom with which he wrote the symbolism of the Song of Solomon as a picture of Christ and his bride.
1Ki 10:23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
6. The law was given to make the simple wise:
Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
and in it is buried a shadow of the good things coming.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come,…
7. God plays in wisdom:
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom?
Number also means “book”. Clouds also means “play”
Who can write a book and play in wisdom (sensus plenior)?


8. Wisdom speaks in the streets (life). People lived their lives which painted pictures of Christ.
Pr 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
9. Three wise men understood the symbols of the time of Jesus birth.


10. The apostles spoke wisdom in a mystery.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
11. Jesus is the answer to the wisdom riddles:
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
12. Wisdom is given to understand the symbols of Revelation:
Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Re 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
There are certainly other aspects of wisdom, but it is apparent that seeking the the symbols… the sensus plenior of the Bible is one of the attributes of the wise.


John is specifically saying that we need to understand symbols to understand what he says. It would be a grave error to attempt a literal interpretation after such a clear notice.
 
#3
Riddles within riddles

Like the wheel within wheels, to solve the mystery of the beast in Rev 17, we must solve several layers of riddles.

1. Descendants of Adam through Cain are all shadows of Christ
2. Descendants of Adam through Seth are all shadows of "those who live"
3. Solve the riddle of two genealogies
4.'Seven' and 'ten' links Genesis with Rev
5. The five that are not, the one who is, and the one to come.
6. The one who is of the seven and is the beast.
7. Riddle of the beast
 
#4
Well it says in the literal that "the government" will be on his shoulders .. and since the beast is "the government"

maybe not . maybe the beast in this redemptive framework would be "the kingdom?" even Daniel calls it "the kingdom" and that the saints would possess "the kingdom" forever and ever .

but since the kingdom .. is the body of Christ .. it would make sense .. that the head and body be mistaken as one and the same .
 
#5
Descendants of Adam through Cain are all shadows of Christ

Cain

Means "possession' and 'spear' see Strong's 07013 and 07014. So Cain is the possessor of the spear.

Spear
2Sa 21:16 And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass, in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David.



The number 3 is for the Trinity.
The number 1000 is king.
The number 100 is the tithe of the King or the church.

The word for shekels is not in the original.
Brass means filthiness.


What is the filthiness of God's church? Sins of the church.

So the spear represents the sins of the church and Cain means the possessor of the sins of the church. Christ was made to be sin for us.

Enoch
Dedicated

Irad
Wild donkey. I have mentioned that a donkey always represents a prophet. The prophets mouths are bridled by God. So the riddle here is, In what way is Jesus an unbridled prophet? He is the Son who is also a prophet. He may speak freely because He is the Living Word.

Mehujael
Smitten by God

Methusael
Man-God

Lamech
Powerful

Jubal and Jabal
Stream and stream
As double water we may say he is the Word in heaven and earth
 
#6
Solve the riddle of two genealogies

We don't need the details of the Genealogies of Seth to solve the riddle.

10 is the number of the daul-natured man.

Now notice the difference between the two genealogies. Anything striking?
Notice how the sons of Seth 'lived' and 'lived' and 'lived'.
Notice how the word 'lived' is missing from Cain's genealogy.

This is riddle at it's best.
The seven Christ's died so that the ten could live.
The fullness of Christ died so that the dual-natured man could live.
 
#7
'Seven' and 'ten' links Genesis with Rev

Where else in the Bible do we find the numbers seven and ten in close proximity? This is an activity of correlation.



There are four places:



2Ch 30:24 For Hezekiah king of Judah did give to the congregation a thousand bullocks and seven thousand sheep; and the princes gave to the congregation a thousand bullocks and ten thousand sheep: and a great number of priests sanctified themselves.


Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.



Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.



Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Re 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
The fact that seven and ten are in close proximity only in these places is no accident, and therefor they are related.



We will get to the others later, but will solve the riddle of Chapter 17 now.
 
#8
an interesting riddle is .. what about the beast before this beast that gives it .. its power?

in SP is there a relation between this beast and the previous one beast in revelation and the previous three in daniel?
 
#9
The five that are not, the one who is, and the one to come.

We saw that Seth's descedants lived and Cain's descendants died.

But now we must look at the details.
Two of the names are on both lists. They were in reality different men, but in the language of riddle we play with the words and ideas.

Enoch and Lamech are mentioned in both lists.

Out of the seven, five have fallen

One is... Enoch walked with God and IS.

One is to come... Lamech means powerful and Christ is to come in power.

Five have fallen, one is, and one is to come.
 
#10
an interesting riddle is .. what about the beast before this beast that gives it .. its power?

in SP is there a relation between this beast and the previous one beast in revelation and the previous three in daniel?
Good question... for another thread ;-)

I have not solved all the riddles yet. I am doing Rev on the fly. So sometimes I have to say "I don't know yet". These are just observations. Are they silly childish games, or are they the wisdom riddles of God? They sure don't appear to be there by accident.

Should I quit here so you can solve the riddle of the beast or should I just do it?
 
#11
The one who is of the seven and is the beast.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Here are the seven. Which is the beast that was and is not? He must be one of the seven and he can't be Enoch or Lamech since one is and one is to come.

Cain possesion, spear
Enoch dedicated
Irad wild donkey
Mehujael Smitten by God
Methusael Man-God
Lamech Powerful
Jabal & Jubal Stream, stream

The only beast on the list is the wild donkey. This represents Christ as the son who is also the prophet.

The wild donkey is one of the five that 'died' or he 'is not'. When the judge died we see that it is the end of judgment and that now we are in grace. Likewise, when the prophet dies, "prophecies cease" because they have all been fulfilled.

So we may now say "In fulfillment of prophecy" because the son as prophet died.

So the eighth is Christ as prophet. But the eighth in Cain's line must also be a shadow of Christ since he is "of the seven". The eighth is also of the seventh generation and is Tubalcain.
 
#12
Riddle of the beast

Now we can solve the final riddle of the beast:



11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

In the shadows, Tubalcain means "Leads Cain", or "leads the sins of the church"
Perdition means destruction.

The beast that was, and is not, is Christ as the prophet who died which becomes In fulfillment of prophecy.

So it says: In fulfillment of prophecy Christ leads the sins of the church to destruction.

Or simply: Christ takes away the sins of the church.

It is a magnificent riddle hidden in layers.

Now if it exists in isolation, one may claim it is an accident. But if the rest of Rev can be interpreted like this was, without reference to outside sources, and by using symbols that mean the same everywhere that they occur, then we may need to rethink our previous methods for interpreting Revelation.
 
#13
first reading the old testament without the holy spirit is stupid.secondly,satan wants you dead and can fill your mind with junk,or junk you will believe to forfit life.third your point has to comply with scripture.
now all through the old testament it points us to Christ.
 
#14
Now that you have seen a complex riddle rather than just a word for word one, it should be obvious to the casual observer that it is impossibly insane to try to mix this method with existing preconceptions of eschatology. The beast is a donkey representing Christ as prophet who takes away the sins of the world.

Is there some future literalist beast that swallows Tokyo? I don't know. Why should I care when I can see Christ in all things. This method puts the cross back at the center of time and history where it belongs.

I believe Revelation is a Rosetta stone, telling the story of Christ over and over again using the symbols of the Old Testament. That belief has yet to be proven out, since I have been spending the last seven years learning the symbols of the Old Testament. If it turns out to be nothing more than silly Child's play, it has the effect of focusing our meditations upon His Word.

People get excited when they see faces of Christ in pancakes, I would hope seeing Him fresh in His Word would be a blessing to you.
 
#15
The beast is a donkey representing Christ as prophet who takes away the sins of the world.

so your saying Christ is a beast,and power of the first beast,gives a human beastly powers.?
so your saying God is evil and has no part with Christ or his sinners,and forever they will be food for the evil.?
 
#16
Nah keep continuing . one of the things i ask quite often is a uniform ethic for interpreting the whole bible . since that is what you're doing . and it points to christ through out the bible . i would like to see more of what you come up with .

even though i'm kinda using the method intutively to an extent as you say . i learn methods through applying them . i'll probly understand SP more on an intellectual level in either a month or a year . it depends how much God has grown it in me already .

stay blessed .
 
#18
The beast is a donkey representing Christ as prophet who takes away the sins of the world.

so your saying Christ is a beast,and power of the first beast,gives a human beastly powers.?
so your saying God is evil and has no part with Christ or his sinners,and forever they will be food for the evil.?
No Bob is talking about the prophetic archtype that Christ fits into in the passage at hand . kinda like Jesus being the scapegoat that takes away the sin of the world . yet goats are not considered good always . Jesus became sin . so we might become the righteousness of God
 
#20
does beast not mean the busy bees going to the wicked witch of the east.the Queen blue bee.?
When you read literally . yes . Bob is reading the original language and discyphering riddles embedded into the text . through word play .

There was a hooplah about something like this in 200BC because there were no vowels between the hebrew letters . so the rabbinic authority added some . but Christ probably knowing this saw what the passages meant without the vowels .