Hello Marilyn;
I've been following this thread and posts. I have a question for you. Do you believe or feel the Apostles and Prophets are still continuing revelations?
God bless you, sister.
Bob
The cessation of miracles
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Hello Marilyn;
I've been following this thread and posts. I have a question for you. Do you believe or feel the Apostles and Prophets are still continuing revelations?
God bless you, sister.
Bob
I have a library of books, articles, and tapes that I've collected over the last 40 years. I got most of the information from tapes I've listen to from R. B. Thieme Jr.
Hi Bob,
So glad you are following and have asked this very important question which I should have addressed earlier.
I do not believe that there are any more revelations to be added to scripture. The Head of the Body, the Lord Jesus Christ has by His Holy Spirit enabled His word to come forth through various channels and has organized that these writings are kept and finally written in the order He desires.
1. The Gospels - Christ`s manifestation on earth.
2. The Epistles - Christ in His Body.
3. Revelation - Christ in Glory.
Some Apostle`s writings are included as well as some who are not Apostles, (Mark, Luke) Then we see that Paul`s son in the faith, Timothy is also an Apostle, and Silvanus, an Apostle, (as well as others). In 1 Thess. 1 we read -
`Paul, Silvanus and Timothy.........
Connecting with 1Thess. 2: 6
`Nor did WE seek glory from men whether from you or from others, when WE might have made demands as APOSTLES of Christ.`
Apostle Timothy and Apostle Silvanus did not have any writings added to scripture. In fact, Apostle Timothy is of the next generation after Paul had gone to glory and thus Apostleship continued on.
So, it seems that the criteria for Apostles (where they were only for the time when scripture was being added to) is NOT scriptural.
I am pretty sure that we all have those things. It seemed to me though that the original post had come from somewhere else. If I am wrong I apologize for the question.
I was interested in the location if there was one as it seemed to be a really good source of info.
I think I know what you are saying but I thought I should clarify what it is you said.
The word apostle means “one who is sent out.” That being the case then YES, there were more than the Original 12.
In the New Testament, there are two primary usages of the word apostle. I think that we must be clear here in that The first is in specifically referring to the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ. They are the ones who were given the "sign gifts" in Mark 16 and they had the same abilities as did the Lord Jesus.
The second meaning is in generically referring to other individuals who are sent out to be messengers/ambassadors of Jesus Christ.
The Original twelve apostles held a unique position. In referring to the New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:14 says.......
“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
The Original twelve apostles are also referred to in Matthew 10:2; Mark 3:14; 4:10, 6:7 9:35, 14:10, 17 and 20; Luke 6:13; 9:1 22:14;
It was these twelve apostles who were the first messengers of the gospel after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was these twelve apostles who were the foundation of the church—with Jesus being the cornerstone and they were witnesses of the Life and Resurrection of Jesus.
The Scriptures tell us in 1 Corth. 9:1 that to be an Apostle, one had to be a witness of the Lord Jesus...
"Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
This specific type of apostle is not present in the church today. The qualifications of this type of apostle were: .....
(1) to have been a witness of the resurrected Christ (1 Corinthians 9:1),
(2) to have been explicitly chosen by the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:15), and
(3) to have the ability to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43; 2 Corth. 12:12.)
Scripture is clear that there IS a 3 fold qualification to be an Apostle of the 1st kind who Jesus chose as a select group of men to be His apostles and to be the foundation of the Church.
The Originals were......
“Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. “
Judas Iscariot, one of the original twelve, the one who betrayed Jesus, is not named in that list. That’s the original twelve.
Timoth and Silas are never mention among the original first group.
Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot to become one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb in Acts 1:26, BUT he was not specifically chosen personally by Jesus, so then enter Paul who was called personally by Jesus = 12.
Now may I add to this ---At No charge, that there are NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA Scriptures in the Bible that says or suggests there is, was or will be an Apostolic succession.
Good morning;
I'm glad I asked this question because when I described / taught Apostles, there are "3 parts" that stick out and what their role is. It's not always easy to explain and can be confusing to the seasoned or new believer.
In the first two, Major alluded to two types of Apostles; The original Apostles who eye witnessed Jesus and had a specific purpose with Him. There were other Apostles in the Gospels who were sent out as messengers for Christ.
These I agree.
The third is where I have questions and reservations about the Apostleship ministry today. There are Churches who assign, appoint or commission members with the title, Apostle. When I ask them what exactly is their ministry, (Deep inside I am mindful for their zeal to serve Christ) but their mission is not really anything different than what a Christian disciple (follower of Christ) is already doing.
Yes, there are miracles in our times today but so often we overlook them, or we want to see miracles in another way instead of God's way as pointed out in the Bible. When we ponder on the Gospels, notice how we read how Jesus and the Apostles were heard throughout Israel and the world surrounding - miracles, healing, how thousands were saved, Jesus' Resurrection and His ascension while sending the Helper. These were very profound.
I agree with Marilyn as she shares, additional revelations cannot be added to God's Word. I believe the Prophets (God's messengers in the OT) and the recipients of Revelation in the NT fulfilled their commission.
Personally, I have never experienced a Prophet prophesy to me.
God bless everyone.
Bob
Bob.....many years ago, and I mean many, I did a lot of work in real history of the church. It that In the Early Church, there were many individuals who deliberately claimed to be apostles because they understood the weight and influence that accompanied this title.
If a person was an apostle — the Greek word apostolos — they knew that this position held enormous authority and that those who carried this title could obtain leverage in the Church which in their minds meant "money".
Therefore, they coveted this title and intentionally claimed it as a way to gain control and exert power over God’s people.
This is precisely the same reason people with false motives that claim apostleship today. It is all about control. These self-inspired claims are evil and are usually monetarily motivated. The apostle Paul had no tolerance for those who claimed to be apostles but were not. They were constantly battling Paul for his relationship with a church or group of churches.
Pretentious self-promotion is a key disqualifier for the kind of leadership God blesses. In fact, the Lord Himself will resist the proud and self-seeking while giving grace, favor, and peace to those who humble themselves beneath His hand. Let’s do all we can to make sure our motives are in line with the characteristics that qualify the authentic and not disqualify the counterfeit ministers who never passed their tests in God’s classroom of integrity.
Hebrews 2:3-4 and the Sign Gifts | Bible.org
In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given...
The words I think you are referencing is Gospel of Mark 16.9+, which is one of the passages that Charismatics use as proof for their Theological stance. One problem you will run into is that it was 100s of years passed before the longer ending of Mark was initially found. So, the Critical Text didn't contain the long ending. So in first century, because these words were not known to be in the Bible, could I use your same logic and say that the fact that the words didn't appear in any manuscript so God did not want them in the Bible. And, once this Gospel appeared, we had to add to the Gospel.
Yes, since we were talking about gifts, I would recommend the Book, Understanding Spiritual Gifts, A verse by verse study of 1 Corinthians 12-14 by Dr. Robert L. Thomas of Masters Seminary. Your statement that the words of Mark's longer ending was not overly persuasive and can be reversed to show that all positions can be held with that logic.
In other words, many, many Muslims have the same logic about their Quran. The statement is difficult to prove or disprove. As a literalist, I don't encounter issues like that.
This post was taken from a friend of mine, Dan Wallace of Dallas Seminary. I think he did a great job with this text and thought everyone would benefit from it.Hebrews 2:3-4 and the Sign Gifts | Bible.org
In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given...bible.org
Thank you.
Hi Major,
Sorry I missed your post yesterday. Thank you for writing your view out so clearly. We love God`s word and desire to impart to others what we have been taught. And I think we would both agree that it is the Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit who will enlighten us to His word. Thus, I will share what I have been taught in answer to your view.
1.Apostles of the Lamb.
I agree that there are no Apostles today as the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. They had a special role to witness of the Lord`s life and ascension. Also, as you said they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem as the Lord told them.
2.Other Apostles –
Apostle Silvanus -
`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)
Apostle Timothy -
`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)
Apostle Andronicus -
`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)
Apostle Junia -
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)
Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)
`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)
Apostle Epaphroditus - ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)
`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)
Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)
`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1:
3.The Foundation of the Church.
`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)
We would both agree that Lord did not build His Church upon Peter, (as the RCC believes). (Matt. 16: 18) But it was the revelation of who Jesus was that Jesus was talking about. So it is in Eph. 2: 20 where it says –
`Now therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Himself being the chief corner-stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together grows into a holy temple in the Lord..`
The `foundation` of the Church, the Body of Christ is the Lord Himself and it is the revelation of Christ by the Apostles and Prophets not the men themselves.
Excellent post.
All of that is foundational truth.
You see sister, when people crack the door to falsehoods, it is only a matter of time before the flood throws the door wide open.
That IMHO is what happened to the Pentecostal denomination. They "saw" and "felt" the emotionalism that came with faking the speaking in tongues and they liked that feeling regardless of what the Scriptures say.
A person has to be a realist when it comes to the Bible. As long as people continue to make excuses for the flaws and inaccuracies of their respective denomination, they will never come to the knowledge of the truth. We have to be honest as students of Scripture. If not, the religious discrepancies we see will vanish in the haze of feeble excuses and unsound explanations by false teachers that lead to "miracles, and tongues, and prosperity".
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Thank you Major,
`Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity`. (Ps. 133: 1)
Now just interested in what you mean by - regardless of what the Scriptures say.
The "Context" was ...... "the Pentecostal denomination. They "saw" and "felt" the emotionalism ".
In the past, I did a lot of work on the Pentecostal Denomination.
I am sure most everyone will agree that the Denomination has radically recast and revised the public worship of the church.
No longer is the pure preaching of the sound doctrine of Scripture and the proper administration of the sacraments the heart of the service. Rather, the exuberant praise and the exercise of various gifts by the congregation under the influence of a freewheeling Spirit are the main things.
Getting back to..."The cessation of miracles"......we have beat up what is called the "sign gifts", but what about "Miracles"?
The Bible is full of miracles. If we say that the cessation of miracles refers to the belief held by some Christians that miraculous signs and wonders, as described in the Bible, ceased to occur after the apostolic age, then I agree, YES they have.
However, those "signs and wonders" were not what I would call a Miracle. They were actions done by people with the power of the Holy Spirit.
God still does miracles! When I sit and contemplate a Miracle, I think of what God did on His own and my mind wonders to the Parting of the Red Sea. Not just that the Red Sea parted but the fact that the people crossed over on Dry Land!
Then I ponder the Walls of Jericho. Seven times around and down they came!
What about when Israel crossed the Jordon River into the Promised. Then water stopped flowing and again they went over on dry ground.
Then there is the movement of the sun’s shadow backward ten steps.
The feeding of 5000 which is more like 10,000.
Or Is the greatest miracle in the Bible the time the sun stood still for Joshua.
What are your greatest miracles?
Good morning, Major;
In the past what kind of work did you do with the Pentecostal denomination? Was this before or during the time you were already a Southern Baptist Minister?
God bless you.
Bob
It was investigative for the Seminole Baptist Association. I did some historical and factual work and sent the report to the Director of Missions so that he could distribute to the churches in the association. It was not really anything that most of the pastors already knew but it gave them a basis of understanding.
These days, all of what I worked to get can be found in about 3 minutes on the Internet.
Thank you Major. Sad. I have seen it too.