The Church Has Replaced Israel?

Rusty said:
Doesn't take much "study" to see what God said clearly there were conditions to His blessing anyone for any length of time, let alone a 1000 generations:



Hmmmm...sounds conditional to me....Can one 'love Him and kill His Son' while keeping the 10 Commandments??

Sounds like here (to me)something is require for God's blessing, something outside of race, blood or cultural affinity:


Gee...still sound like obedience is mandatory.
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As to Deut. 7:9 I would say that to have the correct context we would need to go back to 7:6.

7:6.................
"holy people. . .God has chosen you". That speaks to Old Test. election which was for service, and did not always involve salvation (Cyrus in Isa. 44:28; 45:1).

"Chosen," like "holy," had more to do with their relationship to the Lord than personal piety, like the NT use of "saint" for believers. God chose Israel to choose a nation to choose a world (Exod. 19:5-6).

He wants a "holy people" to show the world His character and desire to know them. But, even within that nation, it was always an individual act of faith that made a person right with God, not simply being a part of the covenant community ( Ezekiel 18). The covenant community was made up of individuals who submitted themselves, by faith, to the Law of God.

It was made up of more than just Jews; the stranger in their midst, the alien in their land, and the foreign slaves in the home were all graciously adopted and were allowed to partake of the covenant of election (cf. Exod. 12:38).
http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/old_testament_studies/VOL03OT/VOL03OT_07.html

Now we can see how this verse points to the unmerited, undeserved mercy, grace, and love of God! As a matter of fact, and you are correct Rusty, Israel was difficult to love because of her stiffnecked stubbornness. God's grace is displayed even more clearly because of Israel's rebellion!


Then to Exodus 19:5,
Only then.....(KEEPING MY COVENANT) would God fulfill all the promises for protection and favor. The time of the law was clearly based on a conditional covenant.

Now..........the quotation of parts of verses 5 and 6 in the New Test. (1 Peter 2:9 & Rev. 5:10) is by way of application and in no way indicates that the church has replaced Israel or has taken over the promises given to her.

Jeremiah 31:31 says.........
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah".

This clearly tells us that Israel was given a new covenant to replace the broken Sinaitic compact. The Church participates only in the salvation aspects of the new covenant.

Did the people then agree to keep that promise?? Absolutely. That tells us how easy it is to make a promise to do something but then see how hard it is to follow through on our promise.
 
I think there is a distinct difference between the ideas of 'replacement', abandonment' and 'covenant breaking'. I do believe the Lord has never broken His covenant-without righteous justification.

The children of Israel-(Even Moses and the 'Great King David') broke the covenant with the LORD and He chose to continue to honor the covenant. By all rights-the rejection of Christ is a completely legitimate reason for the LORD to discontinue the covenant. God ALWAYS said 'I will....if you...."

Genesis 17:
1:And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (follow His commandments)
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

God already knew what was going to happen:

Deuteronomy 31:16

16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

AND

Covenant broken: John the Baptist Said-

Matthew 3: (see also Luke 3:8-9)
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Jesus said-

Matthew 8:
Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 9:
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: [1] for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

WE Christians ARE the continuation of the covenant with the LORD and mankind.....In spirit-not in blood. The LORD has not 'replaced' or 'abandoned' anything-it was man rejecting God-and God RENEWED the broken covenant with people that would accept Him. (New Testament)

I believe Jesus Christ is the living Son of the Living God; LORD of Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Moses and David....

Are there present day 'Jews' that will be saved? OF COURSE! I don't think anyone would say anything different...
 
Rusty said:
Doesn't take much "study" to see what God said clearly there were conditions to His blessing anyone for any length of time, let alone a 1000 generations:



Hmmmm...sounds conditional to me....Can one 'love Him and kill His Son' while keeping the 10 Commandments??

Sounds like here (to me)something is require for God's blessing, something outside of race, blood or cultural affinity:


Gee...still sound like obedience is mandatory.
Click to expand...
Rusty,
If you were not so eat up with trying to degrade me you would see that your reply borders on baiting, a.k.a. tr0lling for a fight. Today is going to be a disappointment though, I'm comfortable enough to say I will just agree to disagree, but, since you have done no more than to aggressively point out what would be found in the study I recommended.

Why you so angry? Hmm, I had better not let that friendly version stand, so why are you angry?
 
Rusty said:
Or put another way:

Can any reject, deny, down grade, spurn, dispute, refuse or ignore God's Son (as subsequent generations of Hebrew descendents after the Cross surely have) and still be "chosen"?

They were chosen originally to prepare the world for Christ's First Advent: do the Gospels reveal they did a faithful job or an unfaithful one?
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Rusty,
Your implication, here, makes God out to be a liar and that's not so because there is no sin in God, as demonstrated by Jesus when He was here. As I am known to repeatedly point out, no scripture, nor any group nor grouping of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all other scripture shinning on it or them.

God made this promise to the Jewish Believer with His full knowledge of the future failures and sins 0of the nation. But as I was studious to point out, the promise was not made to the nation. This promise was made to the Believer and for it to be applicable up to and beyond this point in time I will step out of the scriptures (in some folk's opinion) and state that the Jewish Believer that it applies to today is the Completed Jew! For an understanding of my use of the term "Completed Jew," look at the Disciples, they are all Completed Jews.

Yes, the nation of Israel was "chosen" to prepare the World for the coming and God knew exactly what would happen, unrealistically, in man's time, thousands 0of years before He called them for their mission. Now, as Jesus pointed out, wide is the road to destruction and narrow the road to Heaven and few that find it, and that is exactly the case.

Many Jews have already have ascended to Heaven, Matt. 27:50-53. Since the promise was, actually, not made to the nation but was, rather, made to the True Believer, just as the Christian's promise of Heaven is. And you might g so far as to mistakenly point out that Peter and the gang were Christians, not Jewish I will be remiss if I fail to point out that they were Completed Jews. The Thousand Generation Promise applied to them and it applies to every Messianic Christian today.

God bless.
 
DRS said..........
"WE Christians ARE the continuation of the covenant with the LORD and mankind.....In spirit-not in blood. The LORD has not 'replaced' or 'abandoned' anything-it was man rejecting God-and God RENEWED the broken covenant with people that would accept Him. (New Testament)".

Very true.........but when speaking of "Replacement Theology" it is MAN who has said that the CHURCH has replaced Israel and it gets all the promises which God gave to Israel.

Again.........NOT SO!
The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church which is what our brother Rusty has been advocating.

Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.
(http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html)




​
 
th1bill said:
Rusty,
If you were not so eat up with trying to degrade me you would see that your reply borders on baiting, a.k.a. tr0lling for a fight. Today is going to be a disappointment though, I'm comfortable enough to say I will just agree to disagree, but, since you have done no more than to aggressively point out what would be found in the study I recommended.

Why you so angry? Hmm, I had better not let that friendly version stand, so why are you angry?
Click to expand...

Bill.........how are you feeling????

The M/S better or are you just having a good day??

My prayers are for you and the Lord is with you.
 
Rusty said:
Or put another way:

Can any reject, deny, down grade, spurn, dispute, refuse or ignore God's Son (as subsequent generations of Hebrew descendents after the Cross surely have) and still be "chosen"?

They were chosen originally to prepare the world for Christ's First Advent: do the Gospels reveal they did a faithful job or an unfaithful one?
Click to expand...

That question could be asked about you and me and everyone else couldn't it????

Have we always been faithful?
Have we always been loving?
Have we always been sweet?

Want to go on????

Why did God choose YOU. Were you a hard worker, faithfull in all things and did well in all that you were involved in????

I suspect that you were just like everyone else in the world.
 
Rusty Posts: Well said Dirty! "Continuation" is a good word. After the Cross all things are different.

Wrong - God is the same. Is, was, and ever will be. There is a reason - waaaay back when he told us: Honor thy Mother and Father! Honor what you came from. His promises are eternal and he already knows our faithlessness when he made them. Before or after the Cross - God forgets none of his children.
 
I fail to understand what you and DRS refer to. Kinda simple. God knows ahead of time when we slip up - he does not say nor does he remove the promises he made to us. If he makes a promise to me - you do not inherit it because I fail to keep the agreement - he waits until I do complete it. What he wants from you may be totally different. And let's be clear - he expects delivery from all his "chosen".
 
Rusty said:
This almost sounds like you believe that no one will be lost, is that right?
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There are some days I think we all are lost. I know this - God wants us all back - it goes against everything I can sort intellectually. But I still have a hard time betting against God's plan and if you created the multiverse, wouldn't you be able to figure out a plan to get what you wanted? I get where you are going with this - a label. And, I mean - God Forbid - that everyone might be saved - that would suck for all of us do-gooders who followed his plan all along. WE want people to suffer after all for all that sinning we were afraid to do.
 
Rusty said:
You should know me well enough now Silk that I do not label you. I don't yell "Wrong!" or anything else at you....I'm stunned you would think I would do so.
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Then I apologize - it certainly seemed to be headed there. But I will stand where I think God wants me. And I may be thin skinned but I do not think the "church" replaced any chosen folk. Just saying
 
I think the biblical support has already been quoted by Major (post #30) or Bill. The Jews/Hebrews/Israelites are called the "chosen" people throughout the OT. Chosen by God. I don't recall that the status was changed, whether they were dispersed in the world, made slaves of, or lost wars (ie Babylon or Rome.) Jesus was a Jew, he ministered to the Jew, his Disciples were Jews. Out of these people was Christ born. How "chosen" can you get? They have survived as a people for 2,000 years to today and you think their "chosen" status is done? They are the root - the parent of Christianity, I wouldn't be so fast to put them in the old folks home. But that's just common sense - not scripture:

Deu_7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu_14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
1Ch_16:13
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
Psa_33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psa_89:3
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Tell me where the "chosen" status is ever said to be taken away - OT or NT.
 
We are told that there was a bloodline from Adam to Seth to Lamech and Noah to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel down to David, Solomon to Joseph, the carpenter to Jesus ( and he had siblings!). The biggest complaint about the Jews - down thru history is - they did not assimilate well and were standoffish. The Jews pass down their religion thru the mother. Whether they practice the religion or not - they were persecuted. It didn't matter in Nazi Germany whether you converted to Christianity 5 generations back - you still got sent to the camp. To say the Jew of today is not the one of yesterday goes right along with the Christian of today is not the same as 2000 years ago. Does that make us less a group? Just a guess, but I think maybe God keeps track even if we don't. The Jews did the bloodline thing waaay before ancestry.com came around - more so than any group in the history of mankind. It is a "miracle" that they still exist and is key to probably why they were chosen in the first place.
 
I fail to understand your point - Jews have converts (Sammy being one). He practiced? the religion I assume. The state of Israel (as I have stated 2 times before) does not care if you practice your religion, they require you to be an unconverted Jew to be a citizen. To be Jewish, no longer entails just religion or your location. To become a Jew requires a conversion and religion but otherwise - it goes on bloodlines.
 
Rusty said:
So you will admit that NOW...after the birth of Christ...it is not a bloodline?
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Christ had brothers and sisters - no one noted if they continued that particular bloodline. The Davidic bloodline comes from Joseph - not Mary. What I was saying about "Jews" is that either they practice their religion or go by their parents and grandparents "Jewish" blood. The bloodline that Christ had - could have continued but no one tracked it after the diaspora as far as I know. There would have been many of the same bloodline or that had nothing to do with the Christ story that may have survived but that was not what I meant by bloodlines. I was saying that today's Jew describes himself via bloodline or religion - it can be either.
 
God's love is unconditional to each and all his children. God knew there would be Jews who failed to recognize the Messiah, ahead of time. He did not choose this people based on their worship of him - they did not know Him yet. They never lost their chosen status because they became faithless. They could still love God and not recognize the Messiah had come. God chooses his own - they don't get to choose themselves. Why ask me what only God can answer - requirements? Jonah spent 3 days in a whale's tummy because he didn't fancy being a prophet. If the Jews were supposed to raise the Messiah - they succeeded. Do you think God would forget this? Or consider it unworthy? The world as a whole had a hand in Christ's crucifixtion - but that was the way it was suppose to happen. The Jews did not kill him - the Romans did. Yes, I know the story. It is not secular or political - everyone understands Jewish. And God has not replaced them. Just because God does the choosing - not anyone else.
 
Major said:
Bill.........how are you feeling????

The M/S better or are you just having a good day??

My prayers are for you and the Lord is with you.
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I have the Remitting/Relapsing brand and the latest relapse is just remitting, I feel great... again. Thanks for your concern and especially for your prayers.
 
Rusty said:
Silks: So that is your answer to the post#28? Those conditions of obedience God specifically said mean.....nothing???

I'm nowhere saying that any one religious/cultural group murdered Christ...we all did....It is clear they rejected the Lord....that you seem to not address. THAT was the purpose of God choosing them, to teach the world of the Messiah's first coming.....the job clearly was NOT accepted by the Jewish leadership and the vast majority of Jews of the time, or now. Their "house" was left unto them desolate. Their nation was dissolved, their Temple services were cancelled by God Himself.
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But according to the Bible..........God is not finished with them.
 
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