The Dangers Of The Pre-tribulation Rapture Doctrine.

Status
Not open for further replies.
None of my dreams/visions or conversation disagrees with the Word of God - however your interpetations of the Word may disagree. God has been giving dreams and visions to people throughout scripture. As already stated - I hope there is a pretrib rapture - there is no convincing scripture to that effect. No word "rapture" in scripture. It is an idea that took root in the 1800's, with a Pastor who kept changing the date of Christ's second coming and made lots of $$$ being wrong. I will say again - I hope you are right in your interpetation. Christ comes only once for the second coming - not once for the rapture and once for for His millenial kingdom. And if all who are raptured with Christ, don't go with Him to the Millenial Kingdom, where do you expect they go for a 1,000 years? We can only enter heaven as part of the body of Christ
I am all for a pretrib rapture and saying you know better doesn't confirm for me that it is part of God's plan. To say maybe it isn't - is NOT a misleader or meant to frighten anyone. To say so implies that salvation is dependant on belief in pretrib.

The word, "rapture" doesn't have to be in scripture to be the truth that is taught. It is HARPAZO---it is Greek, and it means "to catch up or take by force". In most English translations of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it’s rendered "caught up". The root from which it comes is haireo which means "to take for oneself." 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the only place the word harpazo refers to the rapture of the Church.

"Rapture" is the English word that comes from the Latin translation of "harpazo" which is why you can’t find it in your bible. You would have to read 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in Latin to see it there---and it appears there as "rapiemur". Many people don’t realize that for the thousand years preceding the Reformation, the Latin Vulgate was the primary translation of the original Greek texts. It was the standard text longer than any other translation before or since.

It is a perfect word that describes how Jesus will catch His saints away---to Himself, His rightful possession!
 
Sorry friend, that's according to your theory, if what you are saying is true, that the Holy Spirit can't be active in the saving of souls after the Rapture of the Church, so then He wasn't active in the saving of souls before the Church age, ...that is the entire 4000 years of the Old Testament, ...do you see how ludicrous your rational is?

I'll say this again, what you are saying didn't come from the Holy Spirit, someone had to teach that to you, because from just reading the Word you would never come up with this false doctrine, you need to stop and seriously ask yourself, "where did I learn this, who taught it to me, and I'm I deceived?"

What do you have to lose and why are you hanging on to it so tight, what are you afraid of, those are the real questions that need to be answered.

In His Love,

Gene

The Holy Spirit was on the face of the Earth before the crucifixion (John 14:16-17). However, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit is what restrains the coming of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7) and will be removed from the face of the Earth before the rapture. So, I repeat, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit will not be here during the Tribulation. Now explain to me how can there be conversions to Christ without the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is what convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) and leads to all truth (John 16:13)?

My understanding of the end times comes from a plain reading of the Scriptures. Nobody would ever get to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture from a plain reading of the Scriptures, simply because this doctrine denies what the Bible explicitly says about the rapture. I am hanging tight to what I believe because it is what the Bible teaches. Why are you hanging tight to your false doctrine? That is the real question that you have to ask yourself.
 
The Holy Spirit was on the face of the Earth before the crucifixion (John 14:16-17). However, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit is what restrains the coming of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7) and will be removed from the face of the Earth before the rapture. So, I repeat, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit will not be here during the Tribulation. Now explain to me how can there be conversions to Christ without the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is what convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) and leads to all truth (John 16:13)?

My understanding of the end times comes from a plain reading of the Scriptures. Nobody would ever get to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture from a plain reading of the Scriptures, simply because this doctrine denies what the Bible explicitly says about the rapture. I am hanging tight to what I believe because it is what the Bible teaches. Why are you hanging tight to your false doctrine? That is the real question that you have to ask yourself.

Is there anyplace where God is not? God,s presence is every where, there is no place he is not.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

It is the Church that will be gone, not the Holy Spirit. We are the ones with the authority over all the works of the Devil.
 
You can challenge anything you like, but you have to be biblical about it.

Tell me, what is so disastrous about what you think is a heresy (which isn't!)? It seems to me after discussing these matters for years, it is ONLY those who deny the pre-Tribulational rapture that pronounce dire unknown consequences and even declare Christians who believe it to be heading for condemnation.

There is no condemnation in those who are in Christ.

I am not saying that you won't be saved unless you believe in a post-tribulation rapture. To me these things are important, since they can mislead the church and cause the deaths of many, but a sound understanding of these things is by no means necessary for salvation.
 
Is there anyplace where God is not? God,s presence is every where, there is no place he is not.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

It is the Church that will be gone, not the Holy Spirit.

Then you have to conclude that the Holy Spirit is NOT what restrains the coming of the Antichrist, since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the face of the Earth. How can the Church be what restrains the Antichrist if the book of Revelation clearly talks of saints being beheaded for the testimony of Christ during the reign of the Antichrist?
 
Then you have to conclude that the Holy Spirit is NOT what restrains the coming of the Antichrist, since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the face of the Earth. How can the Church be what restrains the Antichrist if the book of Revelation clearly talks of saints being beheaded for the testimony of Christ during the reign of the Antichrist?
Are there people today being killed for their beliefs? The Holy Spirit is here and this is happening today. The Holy Spirit is not only here on earth, but also dwelling in his Church. It is the Church that Jesus gave his authority to. If we do not exercise that authority the Holy Spirit will not move. God always works through His Church, which is his body.
 
The Holy Spirit was on the face of the Earth before the crucifixion (John 14:16-17). However, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit is what restrains the coming of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7) and will be removed from the face of the Earth before the rapture. So, I repeat, according to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, the Holy Spirit will not be here during the Tribulation. Now explain to me how can there be conversions to Christ without the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is what convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) and leads to all truth (John 16:13)?

My understanding of the end times comes from a plain reading of the Scriptures. Nobody would ever get to the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture from a plain reading of the Scriptures, simply because this doctrine denies what the Bible explicitly says about the rapture. I am hanging tight to what I believe because it is what the Bible teaches. Why are you hanging tight to your false doctrine? That is the real question that you have to ask yourself.
Simple, again, as He did in the OT times; through FAITH!
 
Good to see that we all agree this is not a salvation issue (wipes forehead). Altho I lean towards a post trib rapture, I am still hoping and praying for the pretrib rapture. It has points in it's favor, the main being that we don't have to go thru the tribulation. Whether we experience physical death or somehow survive such a dreadful thing - we all live eternally in Christ. At age 62, I'm ready for a new body :). So I don't say pretrib is a "false" doctrine. I would hope, that all Christians would keep in mind that if it doesn't happen - that we didn't get the rest wrong. To make it a major plank of your faith could destroy your faith, rapidly. If it happens - no one will be more joyful than I.
 
I'd like to understand why there has to be a pre vs. post when both are possible AND there's actually pre, post, post according to the scriptures. Let's use some common sense when it comes to scriptures. All verses must fit if you're gonna stick it into a mold. Jesus says "pray that you be found worthy to escape" and "will I find faith when I return". These imply something. Maybe that the rapture isn't a right, but a gift for those found in faith, not just those in the faith?
 
I'd like to understand why there has to be a pre vs. post when both are possible AND there's actually pre, post, post according to the scriptures. Let's use some common sense when it comes to scriptures. All verses must fit if you're gonna stick it into a mold. Jesus says "pray that you be found worthy to escape" and "will I find faith when I return". These imply something. Maybe that the rapture isn't a right, but a gift for those found in faith, not just those in the faith?

Because Jesus said very clearly that the rapture would take place after the tribulation (Matthew 24)
 
So, the Holy Spirit will be removed to facilitate the advent of the Antichrist, but at the same time He will be there all the time? It makes no sense.
It certainly does because the Holy Spirit works in the individual and limits evil globally. It's all FAITH. I'm sorry you can't understand it and I wish I had the right words to help you understand that making an issue of this is really wrong. There are multiple raptures, again I do not understand why you can't see that. Just as the religious group was looking for the King Messiah only when He came as the Suffering Messiah. It's like trying to decide where the Messiah would be from before He actually came. I could say "Bethlehem" and another could say "Egypt" and yet another "Nazareth" and we'd all be right, but we'd argue about it ad nausium we were each individually correct and the others wrong. NOW that He has come and we have the NT we know what happened and all three were correct! That's my point, and why I keep repeating scriptures "prophecy is of no private interpretation."
 
It certainly does because the Holy Spirit works in the individual and limits evil globally. It's all FAITH. I'm sorry you can't understand it and I wish I had the right words to help you understand that making an issue of this is really wrong. There are multiple raptures, again I do not understand why you can't see that. Just as the religious group was looking for the King Messiah only when He came as the Suffering Messiah. It's like trying to decide where the Messiah would be from before He actually came. I could say "Bethlehem" and another could say "Egypt" and yet another "Nazareth" and we'd all be right, but we'd argue about it ad nausium we were each individually correct and the others wrong. NOW that He has come and we have the NT we know what happened and all three were correct! That's my point, and why I keep repeating scriptures "prophecy is of no private interpretation."

It seems pretty clear that there is a single rapture mentioned both in Matthew 24:29-31 and in Revelation chapter 20 (the first resurrection precedes the rapture).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top