The 'Description' of Revelation 1:12-17a
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Replies#18,19,20 by @Major, @CCW95A,
Hello there,
Just to sum up, and clarify where I stand in regard to what you have said in your responses, let me say to @Major that:-
- I am acquainted with the ‘law of first mention’, and I understand why you should refer to it in reference to Exodus 3, regarding the use of the term, ‘the angel of the Lord’, for it is it’s first mention.
- God called out to Moses by means of the angel who ‘represented’ Him in the burning bush. God identified Himself to Moses, by the words He spoke, through that angelic being.
* The words spoken identify the speaker to be God Himself, it does not identify the angel, the angel is merely the vessel through whom God spoke:-
‘Moreover He said, “I am -
the God of thy father,
the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac, and
the God of Jacob. ...’
(Exo 3:6)
- I AM THAT I AM:’
(Exo 3:14 )
-----------------------
* To, CCW95A, I would say,
- I acknowledge that the Lord Jesus Christ is ‘the Word’,
- I acknowledge the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God manifest in the flesh.
- I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is not an angelic being, that He was begotten of God, and is both ‘Son of God’ and ‘Son of man‘. - That in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
- I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God, that He Himself is God. He is the ‘I AM’.
* Yet I do not see that this knowledge, justifies saying that the angel of the Lord was the incarnate Christ. For the angel was merely the vessel through whom God spoke. The angel is not important, the One Who spoke through the angel, and the words spoken, were. Do you see what I am saying?
This is work in progress for me, I shall investigate it further, and report back (GW)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello there,
Just to sum up, and clarify where I stand in regard to what you have said in your responses, let me say to @Major that:-
- I am acquainted with the ‘law of first mention’, and I understand why you should refer to it in reference to Exodus 3, regarding the use of the term, ‘the angel of the Lord’, for it is it’s first mention.
- God called out to Moses by means of the angel who ‘represented’ Him in the burning bush. God identified Himself to Moses, by the words He spoke, through that angelic being.
* The words spoken identify the speaker to be God Himself, it does not identify the angel, the angel is merely the vessel through whom God spoke:-
‘Moreover He said, “I am -
the God of thy father,
the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac, and
the God of Jacob. ...’
(Exo 3:6)
- I AM THAT I AM:’
(Exo 3:14 )
-----------------------
* To, CCW95A, I would say,
- I acknowledge that the Lord Jesus Christ is ‘the Word’,
- I acknowledge the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God manifest in the flesh.
- I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ is not an angelic being, that He was begotten of God, and is both ‘Son of God’ and ‘Son of man‘. - That in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
- I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God, that He Himself is God. He is the ‘I AM’.
* Yet I do not see that this knowledge, justifies saying that the angel of the Lord was the incarnate Christ. For the angel was merely the vessel through whom God spoke. The angel is not important, the One Who spoke through the angel, and the words spoken, were. Do you see what I am saying?
This is work in progress for me, I shall investigate it further, and report back (GW)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
‘The Angel of the Lord’
Gen. 16:7, 9 , 10, 11; 22:11, 15
Exo.3:2 Num.22:22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 31, 32, 34, 35
Jdg.2:4 ; 5:23; 6:12,21; 13:3, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21
2Sam.24:16 1Ki.19:7 2Ki.1:3, 15 ; 19:35
1Chron.21:12, 15, 16, 18, 30
Psa.34:7; 35:5, 6; Isa.37:36 Zec.1:11, 12; 3:1, 5, 6; 12:8
Mat.1:20, 24; 2:13; 28:2 Luk.2:9
Act.5:19,; 7:30; 8:26; 12:7, 23
If Exodus 3:2 and the words, 'The Angel of the Lord', are to be ascribed to the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (pre. incarnation) then in the light of 'the light of first mention' is the further usage of these words (above) to be thought of likewise?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Gen. 16:7, 9 , 10, 11; 22:11, 15
Exo.3:2 Num.22:22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 31, 32, 34, 35
Jdg.2:4 ; 5:23; 6:12,21; 13:3, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21
2Sam.24:16 1Ki.19:7 2Ki.1:3, 15 ; 19:35
1Chron.21:12, 15, 16, 18, 30
Psa.34:7; 35:5, 6; Isa.37:36 Zec.1:11, 12; 3:1, 5, 6; 12:8
Mat.1:20, 24; 2:13; 28:2 Luk.2:9
Act.5:19,; 7:30; 8:26; 12:7, 23
If Exodus 3:2 and the words, 'The Angel of the Lord', are to be ascribed to the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (pre. incarnation) then in the light of 'the light of first mention' is the further usage of these words (above) to be thought of likewise?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
In a word Yes! It has to do with "grammar" as much as it does theology.
It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God in the Old Test. verses that you posted. In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it seems to me that it is clear that in these instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form or in other words..."The pre-incarnate Christ".
Now as for the New Test. verses you posted , the appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament after the birth of Christ.
Oooops.............Posted same thing twice. Sorry about that.
Both in Hebrew and Greek, "Angel" simply means messenger. I think everyone is saying the same thing. Anyone sent by God is an Angel whether they are sons of God, celestial beings, the Son of God, Moses, or @Major. In fact the seven angels with the trumpets mentioned in revelation are actually saints. Substitute Angel for messenger then the issue is removed. The Father sent the Son, so He is also an Angel - aka Messenger.
Who is the "angel", "messenger" of the New Covenant?
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: (this is clearly John the Baptist) and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, (Only Jesus Christ would be the messenger, angel, of the New Covenant) whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
The word, "messenger" means, "angel"
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Thank you, @Major, @Abdicate and @CCW95A,
You have given me both answers, and lines of enquiry, to follow through. All I need now is time, the sense to use it wisely, and the superintendence and grace of God, the Holy Spirit, to settle my mind on this issue, as I read His Word.
Grace and peace
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You have given me both answers, and lines of enquiry, to follow through. All I need now is time, the sense to use it wisely, and the superintendence and grace of God, the Holy Spirit, to settle my mind on this issue, as I read His Word.
Grace and peace
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello @Major, @Abdicate@CCW95A,
I want to correct an error, why it was made, and how I did not see what was before my eyes, I do not know, but Exodus 3:2 is not the first mention of the words, 'The angel of the Lord'. Genesis 16:9 is the first mention.
I do not need a response to this, for it just a correction.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I want to correct an error, why it was made, and how I did not see what was before my eyes, I do not know, but Exodus 3:2 is not the first mention of the words, 'The angel of the Lord'. Genesis 16:9 is the first mention.
I do not need a response to this, for it just a correction.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Not for me...I understand.Hello @Major, @Abdicate@CCW95A,
I want to correct an error, why it was made, and how I did not see what was before my eyes, I do not know, but Exodus 3:2 is not the first mention of the words, 'The angel of the Lord'. Genesis 16:9 is the first mention.
I do not need a response to this, for it just a correction.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
In the Greek it is literally, by means of his angel (διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου). I agree that the "angel" here probably does denote a spiritual messenger and may be the same one mentioned in Revelation 17:1, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 22:6; Revelation 22:8; and Revelation 22:16.
But it's not clear whether or not one or more than one angel is employed throughout Revelations as the angel does not come into the foreground of the narrative until Revelation 17:1, 7, 15 (comp. Revelation 19:9; Revelation 21:9; Revelation 22:1, 6, 9).
The Pulpit Commentary points out:
"The Revelation is begun and ended by Christ himself; but the main portion is conducted 'by means of his angel.' Thus St. Paul says of the Law that it was 'administered by means of angels in the hand of a mediator,' i.e. Moses (Galatians 3:19). In this case the mediator is John, a 'servant' specially selected for this work (Isaiah 49:5; Amos 3:7). Thus we have four gradations - the primary Agent, the Father; the secondary Agent, Jesus Christ; the instrument, his angel; the recipient, John."
And certainly bible study group leaders are a mixed lot. The worst ones I've had the misfortune to observe were linear control freaks that would scream at people and then forcibly remove them from the bible study if anyone dared to correct them. No need to remain in such a toxic situation, of course. I didn't.
But it's not clear whether or not one or more than one angel is employed throughout Revelations as the angel does not come into the foreground of the narrative until Revelation 17:1, 7, 15 (comp. Revelation 19:9; Revelation 21:9; Revelation 22:1, 6, 9).
The Pulpit Commentary points out:
"The Revelation is begun and ended by Christ himself; but the main portion is conducted 'by means of his angel.' Thus St. Paul says of the Law that it was 'administered by means of angels in the hand of a mediator,' i.e. Moses (Galatians 3:19). In this case the mediator is John, a 'servant' specially selected for this work (Isaiah 49:5; Amos 3:7). Thus we have four gradations - the primary Agent, the Father; the secondary Agent, Jesus Christ; the instrument, his angel; the recipient, John."
And certainly bible study group leaders are a mixed lot. The worst ones I've had the misfortune to observe were linear control freaks that would scream at people and then forcibly remove them from the bible study if anyone dared to correct them. No need to remain in such a toxic situation, of course. I didn't.