The Disastrous Failure Of The Early Church
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My apologies, for it was never meant to be a basis for my argument ... I just threw it in there at the last minute.
Secondly, you do realize that many of the Lord's Scriptures have more than one application.
Thirdly, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).
From the above, I'd say it's quite obvious that you have no idea what the thread is about.
It's actually about the time frame of a.d. 100--1900.
The early church (let's say a.d. 100--1000) did not carry on God's methods of the NT church,
which meant that the remaining years up until 1900 did not either!
Clear now?
How do you know that?
1st. ...... Scriptures should always bee used in CONTEXT to what you are referring to. When one tries to "force" an opinion with a Scripture, it will always result in bad/erronouse doctrine.
2nd..... Yes my dear brother, I certainly do, and actually goes without saying.
3rd......You are using Hebrews 13:8 and many people do as well to say...........
"When Jesus was here 2000 years ago, He did miracles, therefore we ought to perform miracles today. He healed 2000 years ago and we ought to be healing today. He is still in that same business".
You and those who say and believe that are totally missing the point. Jesus is the SAME at all times in His "Character, His person and His attributes"...BUT He is NOT the same in place or in performances.
THINK! He was born in a manger but He did not stay there ....correct!???
He was a little boy in Nazareth, but He did not stay there............correct???
He died on the cross but He did not stay there.............................correct???
He was burried in a grave but He did not satay there...................correct???
You can easily see that Jesus is not the same in place or performance, but He is the same in His attributes!!!!!!
You miss the point my friend that Jesus was God in the flesh and could do anything He wanted to do. We are sinners.
We believe Jesus did what He did and said what He said by faith and we should not need nore desire a miracle as proof of those things today.
In fact, to expect, desire or ask for a miracle is showing a lack of faith and that is sin.
Yes, very true.
For example some would say the Monastic period where Monks were cloistered away (doing nothing?) just guzzling wine while the barbarians were sacking the civilized world is clear proof of apostasy. But....
These Monks preserved the priceless teachings and Christian heritage against the 'gates of hell'. That is clear evidence of S-W-M without the free helium balloons and hot dog stands........just Christ and His disciples dynamically active throughout 'the dark ages'.
My dearest of all brothers ... It is not what we desire, but what the Lord desires!
He desires the maximum number of people to come to Him and be saved!
He desires the maximum number of people to be healed of all kinds of things!
For these desires of His to be fulfilled simply requires His S-W-M to confirm the precious gospel message!
Re: drawing people to Him ... the more spiritual power is manifested increases the results.
Re: healing many people ... it's just not happening without God's Spirit performing S-W-M.
All but the spiritually blind should see this.
I encourage you to run away from the false teaching of your past, and get with God's program.
And His program is revealed all throughout the NT.
Bravo for me ... I didn't throw in Hebrews 13:8 to get you bent all out of shape.
NOPE!~
Romans 10:17
"Faith comes by HEARING and HEARING by the Word of God".
ME, bent out of shape. If I was to be bent out of shape means I would be in the emergency room!
As for throwing in Hebrews 13:8.......you did it because you did not know what it means and you tried to FORCE it to fit YOUR opinions.......no more no less and you were caught doing it.
As I have stated before, to believe that signs and wonders and miracles are needed to prove the gospel requires one to twist and FORCE Scriptures to fit what YOU want them to say. I justt hate to see that happen as it can effect others who read such teaching.
Glo............he is not selling salvation. He is forcing his "RELIGION" of signs-wonders-and miracles.
My friend............do you read what you post before posting it????
You just said that the early church which was the closest to the Messiah and the Apostles did not carry out God's methods all the way to 1900. THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID.
Only since 1900 is your thesis, that Gods methods have been carried out. Does it strike anyone one else as "INTERESTING" that the Penacostal religion is about 100 years old.
Yes......it is CLEAR that you are promoting Penacostalism.
If there is anyone here with some intelligence, common sense, insight, discernment, etc.
plus an understanding of what I have been saying, please raise your hand and come forth,
and give an explanation of all of this to da others amongst us.
Otherwise, I'm outta here.
P.S. I could have used much, much, much harsher terminology.
plus an understanding of what I have been saying, please raise your hand and come forth,
and give an explanation of all of this to da others amongst us.
Otherwise, I'm outta here.
P.S. I could have used much, much, much harsher terminology.
Gentlemen please.....there are children present..............me!
EV77 you posted....for example:
from post #28.
That opening gambit was I believe, directed at Major; had it been aimed at me, I would have taken a certain amount of umbrage at the obvious, yet unwarranted sarcasm.
OK, next you post (in blue text) two fairly obvious observations....OK, nothing to be burned at the stake over, yet you follow on with your own conclusions (in red text).
Your opening argument presupposes that you have the game...............you don't.
Jesus could (hypothetically) come back in a 1000 ft tall body, send everyone an email with an attachment showing the main street of heaven, and people would still reject Him.
Read the book of Revelation...it is full of SWM and yet people still reject salvation. That is it in a nutshell EV77 all these reasons to repent, seven trumpets, seven bowls of wrath, supernaturally empowered beasts, locusts running amok with AK-47s, global warming on a mega scale,.........nothing will make some people repent.
I understand your passion and your frustration, however your faith in Christ Jesus should be telling you that He has it all covered.
Look again at the last part of this parable:
Luke 16:31. He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
Now ask yourself how much more SWM can there be than the dead rising to life again.
I mean if JFK or Abraham Lincoln or both suddenly walked into the UN general assembly and addressed all the delegates there telling them of the gospel of Jesus Christ, urging them to repent, you'd think that would change more than just a few attitudes. Yet Jesus tells us that even with this, the ultimate SWM people will not believe, turn and be saved. Remember the two witnesses in Revelation?
So I would urge you to ride a different horse than the SWM filly. Pour your zeal into proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus as the Christ of God.(and I'm sure you do have a heart for Jesus)
What was Paul's purpose in doing this?
Romans 15:19
"... in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God,
so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum
I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
Romans 15:19
"... in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God,
so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum
I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."
I like to look at these things in context and in this way see what was meant by what was said.
Paul writing to the Roman Church says among other things:
"Rom 15:7-26. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name." And again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples extol him."
And again Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope."
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else's foundation, but as it is written, "Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand." This is the reason why I have so often been hindered from coming to you. But now, since I no longer have any room for work in these regions, and since I have longed for many years to come to you, I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain, and to be helped on my journey there by you, once I have enjoyed your company for a while. At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem."
The Blue font color is to highlight what you posted, the Red is to highlight some things that I believe are especially important. Of course all of it is important however some parts are more germane to the topic than other bits.
Some questions:
1: Why should we welcome each other?
2: Why did Christ become a servant to the Jews rather than as an all powerful King?
3. Who is it that Paul prays will abound in hope? .....by what means?
4. What is the level of Christian maturity Paul perceives amongst the Roman Church?
5. Why then has Paul written to these people?
6. Paul reminds the Roman Church of his accomplishments through Christ by word and deed. What do you think Paul's 'word and deed' involved? How are these different from 'signs and wonders'?
7. What does Paul say his ambition is?
8. Does Paul see any further scope for 'signs and wonders', for 'word and deed' in the areas he has already ministered in?
9. What is Paul carrying with him on his journey to Jerusalem? Does he have a 'word and deed' in his kit bag?
From all of the above, where does Paul suggest that 'signs and wonders' might have a place?
Paul writing to the Roman Church says among other things:
"Rom 15:7-26. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name." And again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples extol him."
And again Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope."
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else's foundation, but as it is written, "Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand." This is the reason why I have so often been hindered from coming to you. But now, since I no longer have any room for work in these regions, and since I have longed for many years to come to you, I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain, and to be helped on my journey there by you, once I have enjoyed your company for a while. At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem."
The Blue font color is to highlight what you posted, the Red is to highlight some things that I believe are especially important. Of course all of it is important however some parts are more germane to the topic than other bits.
Some questions:
1: Why should we welcome each other?
2: Why did Christ become a servant to the Jews rather than as an all powerful King?
3. Who is it that Paul prays will abound in hope? .....by what means?
4. What is the level of Christian maturity Paul perceives amongst the Roman Church?
5. Why then has Paul written to these people?
6. Paul reminds the Roman Church of his accomplishments through Christ by word and deed. What do you think Paul's 'word and deed' involved? How are these different from 'signs and wonders'?
7. What does Paul say his ambition is?
8. Does Paul see any further scope for 'signs and wonders', for 'word and deed' in the areas he has already ministered in?
9. What is Paul carrying with him on his journey to Jerusalem? Does he have a 'word and deed' in his kit bag?
From all of the above, where does Paul suggest that 'signs and wonders' might have a place?
It should be clear enough that signs and wonders had been a part of Paul's ministry in establishing the churches, but once established there was no longer room or need. What Paul shows is that now, the Christian Church should be filled with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit we may abound in hope. (v13)
Paul's desire is that the Churches he has planted will remain fixed on the gospel hoping for the revealing of the Church in victory.
Now what does it say about hope?
"Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Paul's desire is that the Churches he has planted will remain fixed on the gospel hoping for the revealing of the Church in victory.
Now what does it say about hope?
"Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
If a man has some intelligence, he can quite easily rationalize anything to suit his purposes.
My German ex-wife told me ...
2 Germans can argue over something for an hour, and then switch sides of the topic and argue for another hour.
However, the Holy Spirit is not involved at all ... so no guaranteed truth comes forth.
Calvin, I do like your blue and red; thanks for not bolding it.
My German ex-wife told me ...
2 Germans can argue over something for an hour, and then switch sides of the topic and argue for another hour.
However, the Holy Spirit is not involved at all ... so no guaranteed truth comes forth.
Calvin, I do like your blue and red; thanks for not bolding it.