The Doctrine of the 24 Elders...Who Are They?

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

Have you ever wondered who the 24 elders are in Revelation?

The answer to this has the potential to bust wide open tremendous evidence for some things that many today choose to reject.

Some say they are four ancient creatures who were in Heaven since before the creation of the earth. I will show that this clearly cannot be the case, and scripture itself will bring this to light.

Others say they are representative of the Church, even though nowhere else in scripture is the Church associated with the number 24.

So, what's left in order to glean an understanding of who they represent?

Well, I will cover this in more detail, but wanted to get y'all thinking about this before I dive headlong into typing out the series of items that outline the evidences from the scriptures, in a systematic study, for your review and consideration.

Thoughts, before I get started?

MM
 
For starters, let's look at the following:

  1. Rev 4:4,10-11 - praising the Creator (they are seen sitting in verse 4), AND (this is important) cast their crowns down before the Throne
  2. Rev 5:5 - says to John to not weep, for the Lamb was found worthy
  3. Rev 5:8-9 - the elders and four beasts fall down before the Lamb, and the elders sing a new song to the Redeemer
  4. Rev 5:14 - worship the Father
  5. Rev 7:13-14 - one of the elders asks John about the great multitude before the Throne, revealing they came from GREAT TRIBULATION
  6. Rev 11:16-17 - give thanks that God is reigning on earth
  7. Rev 14:3 - witness the song of the 144,000
  8. Rev 19:4 - worship God who sits on the throne
Before I launch into a brief dissertation into the references above, I will end this post so that you can read these passages yourself, thus doing your own assessments from what the Spirit reveals to you, and what your eyes see in the text.

MM
 
Revelation 4:4, 10-11
4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ...
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I cannot find anywhere in the OT where the Israelites are promised crowns of reward that they will one day cast down before the Lord. The first mentions of crowns in eternity for us are here:

1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

James 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Please keep in mind that what is actually said is vastly important. Of equal importance is what is NOT said that we may tend to try and inject into the text meaning that is not there.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Have you ever wondered who the 24 elders are in Revelation?

The answer to this has the potential to bust wide open tremendous evidence for some things that many today choose to reject.

Some say they are four ancient creatures who were in Heaven since before the creation of the earth. I will show that this clearly cannot be the case, and scripture itself will bring this to light.

Others say they are representative of the Church, even though nowhere else in scripture is the Church associated with the number 24.

So, what's left in order to glean an understanding of who they represent?

Well, I will cover this in more detail, but wanted to get y'all thinking about this before I dive headlong into typing out the series of items that outline the evidences from the scriptures, in a systematic study, for your review and consideration.

Thoughts, before I get started?

MM
Click to expand...

MM...........I would say 1st that the CONTEXT has to be considered. Rev. 4:1-2 seems to be saying that the "Church" (Body of Believers) is now in heaven. Then comes verse #4 where John says.........
"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; …".

Now the bottom line here is that The Bible does not give us a clear answer as to who these 24 elders are.
There are several theories and all of them hold their own merit.

Elders are "Representees".

The two most common thought are...........

1.
They are the 24 orders of the Levitical Priesthood. The Levites who were not priests were given various duties in the caretaking of the
tabernacle and its furnishings. Aaron was the 1st Levite priest and The priests among the Levites were given the immeasurable privilege of doing service in the tabernacle. The Levitical priests also served as judges and teachers of God’s law.

The negative against this thought is that the Levitical priesthood was never intended to be permanent (Heb. 7:11). The death of Christ put an end to the Old Covenant and the Levitical priesthood, as evidenced by the rending of the temple veil.

2.
They represent the 12 Tribes of Israel PLUS the 12 Apostles.

Some things to consider........the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church.

The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised.

What we do know for sure is that they DO NOT represent the 144 thousand that the JW'S teach their followers.

The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.

If the Rapture did take place between chapter 3 and 4 then a very good idea would be that they represent the totality of the church in heaven.

Whatever and whoever they are.....they are at rest, sitting, wearing the cloths of white and a victors crown.
 
This can be taken two ways, one being that the four beasts sang along with the 24 elders

That interpretation is highly unlikely because we would then have to defend the idea that the beasts had ALSO been redeemed to God by the Blood of the Lamb.

The only other possibility is that it is ONLY the elders who sing that song because they are human, not angelic beings/beasts.

Revelation 5:4-5, 8-10
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. ...

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Please keep in mind that I am breaking this up into pieces to make it easier to digest into your understanding, and to help you in being convinced on the basis of your own study, and from within your prayers unto the Lord that He may enlighten you through His Spirit, and to validate that His words to us are trustworthy.

MM
 
Major said:
MM...........I would say 1st that the CONTEXT has to be considered. Rev. 4:1-2 seems to be saying that the "Church" (Body of Believers) is now in heaven. Then comes verse #4 where John says.........
"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; …".

Now the bottom line here is that The Bible does not give us a clear answer as to who these 24 elders are.
There are several theories and all of them hold their own merit.

Elders are "Representees".

The two most common thought are...........

1.
They are the 24 orders of the Levitical Priesthood. The Levites who were not priests were given various duties in the caretaking of the
tabernacle and its furnishings. Aaron was the 1st Levite priest and The priests among the Levites were given the immeasurable privilege of doing service in the tabernacle. The Levitical priests also served as judges and teachers of God’s law.

The negative against this thought is that the Levitical priesthood was never intended to be permanent (Heb. 7:11). The death of Christ put an end to the Old Covenant and the Levitical priesthood, as evidenced by the rending of the temple veil.

2.
They represent the 12 Tribes of Israel PLUS the 12 Apostles.

Some things to consider........the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church.

The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised.

What we do know for sure is that they DO NOT represent the 144 thousand that the JW'S teach their followers.

The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.

If the Rapture did take place between chapter 3 and 4 then a very good idea would be that they represent the totality of the church in heaven.

Whatever and whoever they are.....they are at rest, sitting, wearing the cloths of white and a victors crown.
Click to expand...

Indeed, yes. You have jumped ahead of me somewhat, which is perfectly fine. I don't want anyone to hold back. This all is meant to be food for thought. In the end, however, in the final analysis (which I won't give away yet), the massive implications from this within the framework of Eschatology leads to a conclusion that is undeniably in favor of only ONE of the three or four interpretations about the Harpadzo (Greek word for violent snatching away)...

Stay tuned, everyone, because this is going to get VERY, VERY interesting.

If there's something anyone doesn't understand, then please chime in and we will tackle together whatever comes to mind.

MM
 
There isn't much to unpack here, but it does add to the narrative leading toward the final conclusions:

Revelation 11:16-18
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We see here the elders revealing that the prophets, the saints and all those who feared His name, will receive reward. Observe what is NOT said, in that not all are given crowns, as crowns are not specifically mentioned here as in other places in relation to the Church, etc.

MM
 
The elders are present before the Lord through all the years of the Tribulation of God's wrath poured out upon the earth, all the way from BEFORE the four horsemen are released, to the very end of the tribulation, and are with the Lord at His return in wrath and wiping out of Israel's enemies.

This is important! If you need to go back and read the verses I quoted in this thread thus far, then please do so. Observe that the elders reassured John that there was no reason for him to weep, because there is One who is worthy to open the book and its seals. They are there before the Lamb has the book in His Hands to open the seals.

Here are the elders before the Lord in about the middle of the Tribulation, and to the end of that horrid time at the end of it in chapter 19.

Revelation 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 19:1-4
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Indeed, yes. You have jumped ahead of me somewhat, which is perfectly fine. I don't want anyone to hold back. This all is meant to be food for thought. In the end, however, in the final analysis (which I won't give away yet), the massive implications from this within the framework of Eschatology leads to a conclusion that is undeniably in favor of only ONE of the three or four interpretations about the Harpadzo (Greek word for violent snatching away)...

Stay tuned, everyone, because this is going to get VERY, VERY interesting.

If there's something anyone doesn't understand, then please chime in and we will tackle together whatever comes to mind.

MM
Click to expand...

Sorry brother. I didnt mean to get ahead of you.
 
The 24 elders are representations of the believing saints of God. To establish that, we will put together relevant passages in this, as I said before, systematic study of the topic.

1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

The above verses speak for themselves, and need no in-depth explanation. However, if someone sees something to comment or discuss, then please do.

Please keep the following in mind:

Revelation 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Recall that the elders sing a new song (not the angels):

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This proves beyond a doubt that the 24 elders are NOT angles.

More to come...

MM
 
Major said:
Sorry brother. I didnt mean to get ahead of you.
Click to expand...

No, please. No need to apologize. Jumping ahead of the flow is a fantastic means by which you can whet appetites for knowledge and understanding in those who are reading through this...those who have any interest in what is coming.

I think you will find this of great value overall, and will be a tremendous blessing to those who are looking forward to the coming of Christ Jesus.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
There isn't much to unpack here, but it does add to the narrative leading toward the final conclusions:

Revelation 11:16-18
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We see here the elders revealing that the prophets, the saints and all those who feared His name, will receive reward. Observe what is NOT said, in that not all are given crowns, as crowns are not specifically mentioned here as in other places in relation to the Church, etc.

MM
Click to expand...
Remember also that Rev. 11 is a PARENTHETICAL chapter and the scene changes from earthly to Heavenly!

Verse #16 in Rev. 11 tells us what we already saw earlier in that the twenty-four elders who sit on thrones in front of God respond to the declaration that Christ will reign forever and ever. But first we need to identify the twenty-four elders. Some believe they represent all believers throughout history. Others believe they are the twelve patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel plus the twelve apostles. Still others believe they are all the redeemed of the church age.

All we know is they are victors and humble worshipers of God. They acknowledge God as the supreme and holy ruler by falling on their faces and worshiping him. These are the same twenty-four elders we read about in Revelation 4 and 5. In Revelation 4:10 they "fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever.," and in 5:14 they "fell down and worshiped." If the twenty-four elders do represent all believers throughout history or all believers of the church age, their act of worship previews one aspect of the Christian's life in heaven.
 
Musicmaster said:
The 24 elders are representations of the believing saints of God. To establish that, we will put together relevant passages in this, as I said before, systematic study of the topic.

1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

The above verses speak for themselves, and need no in-depth explanation. However, if someone sees something to comment or discuss, then please do.

Please keep the following in mind:

Revelation 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Recall that the elders sing a new song (not the angels):

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This proves beyond a doubt that the 24 elders are NOT angles.

More to come...

MM
Click to expand...

Agreed!

Notice the literal words you highlited......and hast redeemed us to God .......ANGELS are not redeemed!!!

Israel was Gods chosen people in the Old Test. and the Church is Gods chosen people in the New Test.
 
Thanks, Major. Here's a comparative breakdown from Revelation:

PROMISED TO CHURCHES​
THE 24 ELDERS​
Wear white robes (3:5, 18)​
Wear white robes (4:4)​
Sit around the Throne (3:21)​
Sit around the Throne (4:4)​
Crown Rewards (2:10, 3:11)​
Have crowns cast before the Throne (4:4, 10)​
Rule with Christ (2:26)​
Sing a song of redemption and ruling with Christ (5:9-10)​

I'm driving hard this topic of the Elders NOT being angels because the belief that they ARE angels is a very strong bias out there in the realm of "Interpretation Land."

The scriptures show to us not one angel wearing a crown from all my studies of the Bible.

Onward...

MM
 
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