Well, it still seems pretty clear to me that there is no evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture. Let's agree to disagree. God bless you, brother!
The End Of Days
- Thread starter ThomasA
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Well, it still seems pretty clear to me that there is no evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture. Let's agree to disagree. God bless you, brother!
I love conversations like this. God bless you brother and I look forward to other opportunities to talk with you.
Remember, what we believe about the Rapture does not save us. We are saved by the work of the Lord Jesus and our faith in Him!
See ya later!
Hi Major,
I didn't take offense or see you post as a rebuke, I was just wondering how you were approaching my post. I don't give a date although I believe it can be estimated fairly accurately. I believe there is much in Scripture that gives us this info that is overlooked by many. Little comments here and there that when put together do seem to give us an idea of when Christ will return. For instance Jesus said,
KJV Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. (Luk 13:32 KJV)
I think many overlook the significance of this passage. I think the majority of scholars accept 2000 years from creation to Abraham and 2000 years from Abraham to Christ. If a day is a thousand years and Christ came at 4000 years from creation, today and tomorrow would be 2000 more years for a total of 6000 which again aligns with the early church teaching of the days of creation being both historic and prophetic. In Jesus statement the third day would be the 7th day from creation, God rested on the 7th day. Christ's kingdom is called the Sabboth rest, the 7th day.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:3-9 KJV)
There's also a passage in the OT that addresses this but I can't remember it off the top of my head.
I agree
My two cents 
are that just as Jesus wasn't recognized by the Pharisees even though two messiah's were taught (son of Joseph and son of David - the suffering messiah and the the king messiah), there are yet multiple gatherings to come. The "escape from wrath", in my opinion, is for those who were found faithful when He comes in the clouds, His bride, but not all are the bride, just like John the Baptist was a friend of the bride, John 3:29. I see the rapture as a gift for the faithful, not a right, Luke 21:36. (Oops! 
I've offended someone for sure 
) Next we know the very day of His kingdom return to earth: 1260 days from the time the two witness are murdered and the abomination of desolation which will be on Passover, most likely, of some year; add 1260 days (Rev 11:3, 12:6) and you get 1 Tishri, 3.5 years later (Dan 12:7; Rev 12:14 - odd verse combo there! 
), on the Feast of Trumpets. So that leaves an unknown day, Matt 24:36. Which coincidentally there is only one day in the calendar year one cannot know in advance according to traditional settings of the Jewish calendar: 1 Tishri! Wow ... coincident
? Time will tell. Pun intended. 
Besides even if that wasn't its meaning, without a point of reference we wouldn't know when any event would happen because on planet earth today, this second, there are two days and 42 official time zones. 
Next, Mat 24:29-31 clearly state that there is a gathering of the "elect" AFTER the tribulation, but Mat 13:41 says that all that offends will be gathered at the end of the world. So which is it? o_OAhhh multiple gatherings. Next 1 Thes 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Mat 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. o_OThis points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming. Next John 14:2-3 states that Jesus is going to prepare a place for us in which I guess we never visit if we to meet Him in the air, 1 Thess 4:17, only to do a 180 to return to earth to start His kingdom. 
Then there's the wedding... Luke 12:36, Rev 19:9, Luke 14... when does this happen?
(Oh... well after we're destroyed in the tribulation I guess ) When is the judgment seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10? When will we get our crowns (one at His appearing, yes, 2 Tim 4:8 another - James 1:12, 1 and another Pet 5:4 but when) and then give it to Him in heaven, Rev 4:10, (only 24 out of how many Christians?) when we never make it there, but only as far as the clouds? Hmm... He comes from heaven with some riding white horses, but those raptured at the end are whisked to the clouds, judged, given crowns, mount a horse, and continue to the earth to defeat the antichrist? 
Then you have Matt 25:31-46: why would there need to be a separating of the goats (bad people) and the sheep (good people) if we've already met Him in the air,
unless these sheep were those that survived the wrath of God... salvation during the tribulation (Oops! Another dogma shot to pieces! 
) Finally, who will populate the millennium so the devil can tempt, Rev 20, at the end of the 1000 years if all the good are raptured out to meet Jesus in the air only to return to earth at that moment and the bad are gathered to be thrown into the lake of fire? Or see a child of 100 die, Isa 65:20! And how can we be called accursed unless it's referring to the child being born to those that made it through the tribulation without the mark of the beast. 
So see, you're both right and you're both wrong. There's no need to interpret each verse (since it's forbidden anyhow, 2 Pet 1:20), just put them ALL into a pile, like the old puzzle days, use common sense and put them together using the Holy Spirit to show you the big picture. Oh don't forget the "he who will now letteth", 2 Thess 2:7, is taken away "and then shall that wicked be revealed"! Who keeps evil at bay? Wait! Then there's 2 Thess 2:3 which says "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" hmmm another contradiction! UNLESS!!! 
Glory to God! You understand that the word "apostasia" also means DEPARTURE!! Oh wow! 
Now we're smoking! First the departure THEN the son of perdition is revealed. The Holy Spirit is the down-payment on our salvation Eph 1:13-14, so if He goes (2 Thess 2:7) and the wicked be revealed, then we too will go with Him! 
Booya! <Elvis> "Thank ya very much!"
are that just as Jesus wasn't recognized by the Pharisees even though two messiah's were taught (son of Joseph and son of David - the suffering messiah and the the king messiah), there are yet multiple gatherings to come. The "escape from wrath", in my opinion, is for those who were found faithful when He comes in the clouds, His bride, but not all are the bride, just like John the Baptist was a friend of the bride, John 3:29. I see the rapture as a gift for the faithful, not a right, Luke 21:36. (Oops! I've offended someone for sure ) Next we know the very day of His kingdom return to earth: 1260 days from the time the two witness are murdered and the abomination of desolation which will be on Passover, most likely, of some year; add 1260 days (Rev 11:3, 12:6) and you get 1 Tishri, 3.5 years later (Dan 12:7; Rev 12:14 - odd verse combo there! ), on the Feast of Trumpets. So that leaves an unknown day, Matt 24:36. Which coincidentally there is only one day in the calendar year one cannot know in advance according to traditional settings of the Jewish calendar: 1 Tishri! Wow ... coincident? Time will tell. Pun intended. Besides even if that wasn't its meaning, without a point of reference we wouldn't know when any event would happen because on planet earth today, this second, there are two days and 42 official time zones. Next, Mat 24:29-31 clearly state that there is a gathering of the "elect" AFTER the tribulation, but Mat 13:41 says that all that offends will be gathered at the end of the world. So which is it? o_OAhhh multiple gatherings. Next 1 Thes 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Mat 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. o_OThis points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Next John 14:2-3 states that Jesus is going to prepare a place for us in which I guess we never visit if we to meet Him in the air, 1 Thess 4:17, only to do a 180 to return to earth to start His kingdom. Then there's the wedding... Luke 12:36, Rev 19:9, Luke 14... when does this happen? (Oh... well after we're destroyed in the tribulation I guess ) When is the judgment seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10? When will we get our crowns (one at His appearing, yes, 2 Tim 4:8 another - James 1:12, 1 and another Pet 5:4 but when) and then give it to Him in heaven, Rev 4:10, (only 24 out of how many Christians?) when we never make it there, but only as far as the clouds? Hmm... He comes from heaven with some riding white horses, but those raptured at the end are whisked to the clouds, judged, given crowns, mount a horse, and continue to the earth to defeat the antichrist? Then you have Matt 25:31-46: why would there need to be a separating of the goats (bad people) and the sheep (good people) if we've already met Him in the air,
unless these sheep were those that survived the wrath of God... salvation during the tribulation (Oops! Another dogma shot to pieces! ) Finally, who will populate the millennium so the devil can tempt, Rev 20, at the end of the 1000 years if all the good are raptured out to meet Jesus in the air only to return to earth at that moment and the bad are gathered to be thrown into the lake of fire? Or see a child of 100 die, Isa 65:20! And how can we be called accursed unless it's referring to the child being born to those that made it through the tribulation without the mark of the beast. So see, you're both right and you're both wrong. There's no need to interpret each verse (since it's forbidden anyhow, 2 Pet 1:20
), just put them ALL into a pile, like the old puzzle days, use common sense and put them together using the Holy Spirit to show you the big picture. Oh don't forget the "he who will now letteth", 2 Thess 2:7, is taken away "and then shall that wicked be revealed"! Who keeps evil at bay? Wait! Then there's 2 Thess 2:3 which says "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" hmmm another contradiction! UNLESS!!! Glory to God! You understand that the word "apostasia" also means DEPARTURE!! Oh wow! Now we're smoking! First the departure THEN the son of perdition is revealed. The Holy Spirit is the down-payment on our salvation Eph 1:13-14, so if He goes (2 Thess 2:7) and the wicked be revealed, then we too will go with Him! Booya! <Elvis> "Thank ya very much!"
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Abdicate, that is so neat! Thank you for posting it, I'm studying the five offerings in Leviticus two and the Lord has shown me a mirror like that in them, wow, the Word is awesome!
Blessings,
Gene
I can't take the credit even for discovering it, but thanks
The word is indeed awesome! 
My understanding of Revelation is that it was purposely written so that each generation would think they are the last leading to the end of days. And yet, I think we are approaching the last days for alot of reasons. Like never before, information is available at our finger tips. Israel became a state in 1948. Innumerable signs - catastrophic weather -the very possibility of a one world government. I think it will happen more quickly then our senses realize, as humanity's planned downfall has been long in the works, behind the scenes - in darkness. More than ever, we should trust in God and follow that path.
Right, it seems it's only really been technologically feasible within the last 100 years at the most for many things described in Holy Scripture to occur. We now have the global real time communication networks available to make a one world currency workable. Also with real time communication such as the Internet and television the ability to manage the entire world from one location is possible. It seems like it would have been much harder or just not possible for it to happen without these technologies. I.e. you can't need to issue an order or communication to someone or a group across an ocean and 7000 miles away and need to wait three months for the message to get there by boat and then not know for sure for another three months whether it was received.
Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
I heard, on TV, the other day, that there are an estimated 2 Billion Christians living in the world today (out of 7 Billion?). I thought of all the millions of Christians, who have died in the last 2000 years and those aren't petty figures, for all those "alive" in Christ. Blush. It made me proud. It helped my heart heaviness for that new series on ID, Sinister Ministers. Sigh - 2 leaders of churches per episode. It makes me wonder.
I was watching this video earlier, the whole thing is interesting, around 37:00 he starts talking about how Islam's description of their savior corresponds exactly to what Holy Scripture says about the antichrist.
I love John MacArthur, even though he doesn't believe in the power of the Spirit in one's life, but check out Walid Shoebat who started this line of teaching. He was once a Palestinian terrorist who found Jesus. His thoughts are off any path I've ever heard, and worth taking another look at about a lot of what end-time scenarios we hold dear. Just be careful, as with anything anyone says, filter it through prayer and meditation.