Read the verses that I posted. It is evident that this is not the case.
The End Of Days
- Thread starter ThomasA
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Read the verses that I posted. It is evident that this is not the case.
I've read them maybe a thousand times. There is no evidence for your "case". I stand by my statements.
I caution you to be carful of setting dates!!! I realize that you didn't, but that seems to be the obvious next step.
Sorry to correct you my brother but Scripture is very clear on this.
2 Thess. 2:1-10...............
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: (This is the RAPTURE) We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits[d] in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.(This is the 3rd Temple).
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him(Holy Spirit), so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,(RAPTURE) 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved".
The Rapture.....then the 7 year Tribulation and then the 2nd Coming of Christ at Armageddon.
The RApture MUST take place before the A/C is revealed.
No problem, brother. It is nice to discuss these things, although it will probably require a thread of its own. Doesn't this passage refutes the pre-tribulation rapture?
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
What I understand from the passage above is that "our being gathered to Him" (rapture) won't take place before the arrival of the Antichrist. The post-tribulation stance seems to be based on the verses that follow:
"Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining it will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved" (2 Thessalonians 2:5-10)
However, this stance seems weak to me because it is based on the assumption that "what currently restrains him" is the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I know, there is no Biblical basis for this assumption. Moreover, "what currently restrains him" cannot be the presence of the Holy Spirit, since that would contradict what Paul wrote two verses earlier (i.e., that the rapture would not take place until after the arrival of the Antichrist). There are verses that directly refute the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, for instance:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)
I know that some people argue that "his elect" are only the Jewish believers, but in that case there would be two raptures and not one. Furthermore, in the Bible the "elect" are the believers, both Gentiles and Jews. How do you interpret these verses?
The elect are all the believers. Search for this word in the Bible and you'll notice it.
After the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Church, the elect reverts to Israel, whom God's plan is all about during the Tribulation.
If you study the word, you will see how the elect refers firs to Israel, then both Israel and the Church, then Israel due to the absence of the Church.
I see no Biblical support for that. Let's agree to disagree.
Hey bro,
Here's something for you to gnaw on, ...if the AC should make his appearance while you (being a part of the Church) were still here, wouldn't you, and all of the Church, be holding Bible Studies 24/7 telling people exactly what is coming down?
But Paul tells us that he can't appear until that which is withholding him (the Holy Spirit in the Church), because that would hinder him and must be removed, ...that's us, the Church.
Also the theme of 2 Thes 2 is Paul is writing to people that thought they had missed the Rapture and were currently in the Tribulation, what did he tell the, ..couldn't happen, the church is Raptured before the AC is revealed.
Blessings,
Gene
Here's something for you to gnaw on, ...if the AC should make his appearance while you (being a part of the Church) were still here, wouldn't you, and all of the Church, be holding Bible Studies 24/7 telling people exactly what is coming down?
But Paul tells us that he can't appear until that which is withholding him (the Holy Spirit in the Church), because that would hinder him and must be removed, ...that's us, the Church.
Also the theme of 2 Thes 2 is Paul is writing to people that thought they had missed the Rapture and were currently in the Tribulation, what did he tell the, ..couldn't happen, the church is Raptured before the AC is revealed.
Blessings,
Gene
There is no reason to support such a theory. Also, Paul specifically mentions "our gathering to the Lord". He makes no distinction between abducted and non-abducted Christians. Actually, such a distinction is nowhere to be found in the Bible. The whole theory about the pre-tribulation rapture is based on a misconception; namely, that Christians are saved because of their good behavior/sanctification and not because of their faith in Christ. The pre-tribulation doctrine is to the Evangelicals what the Purgatory is to the Catholics.
That's of course something you do not see, but there is biblical support all through scripture. I'll let you disagree.
If the Body of Christ were still here when Antichrist comes on the scene, we have living within us the power to take his power from him. Think on that.
There is no misconception concerning the event that precedes the Tribulation---the catching away of the saints. Good behaviour has nothing to do with anything.
I think you misunderstood what I said.
Misconception??? Really, ummm the whole Bible teaches a pre-Trib Rapture, Enoch is a type of the Rapture of the Church, Moses striking the Rock the second time is an illustration of the Rapture of the Church, Jesus' own words to the Philadelphian church promising them He would save them from the wrath to come, speaking of the Tribulation, is a promise the Church would be Raptured before the Trib there are many, many more types and illustrations throughout Scripture, I've just skimmed over the surface going from Genesis to Revelation, if you don't know of or understand the two illustrations I have given you I would be glad to discuss them, not argue, with you.
We've already beat this dead horse to death, may I suggest you search through previous threads to see if you can add any new light before we start another disgraceful exhibition of or carnal nature as these types of subjects tend to devolve into.
In His Love,
Gene
Think for a minute how indirect and weak is the Biblical evidence in support of a pre-tribulation rapture. Does the rapture of Enoch tells you that the rapture will take place before the tribulation? Does Moses striking the Rock tells you that? The words of Jesus to the church of Philadelphia could have several meanings, and a pre-tribulation rapture is the most unlikely of them. Only the church in Philadelphia will be abducted? Where is that church now? The evidence is as weak as it gets. On the contrary, the evidence for a post-tribulation rapture is direct and literal:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)
There is nothing weak about how God chooses to interweave the way things will draw to a close on this age in His word. What is weak is people's reception.
That is not the Rapture. That is Jesus' triumphant return---with the saints. The elect is Israel with whom God will have been working (for seven years) to receive once and for all their Messiah---which they will!
So, you are saying that there will be three comings of Christ (1: when he died for our sins, 2: when he comes for the church, 3: when he comes for Israel) and two raptures (1: the rapture of the church, 2: the rapture of Israel). I don't buy it. What about the Christian Jews? Will they be left behind because of their ethnicity?
No---there is ONE second coming of Christ to Earth.
What about Christian Jews? What do you think? What does God say in His word about the righteous living and dead at that event?
How come? Matthew 24 talks about angels gathering the elect from the four corners of the world and you said that the elect are Israel.
Yep.