The Long Ager Dichotomy!

crossnote said:
Agreed, but it does tell us what a day is = evening+ morning.
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No argument from me.

The bottom line is that If you're a literal six-day, young earth creationist, you're going to say that yom means 24 hours. If you're an old earth creationist, you're going to say it means an unspecified period of time. Ultimately, the argument has nothing to do with the word.

To be brutally honest, the matter of the days of creation and the age of the earth for me is unimportant or at best as a side issue and the only reason I am posting on the thread is for debate purposes and to simply keep the debate moving.

I would also say that although I believe that the earth is very, very old, I can also say that the Bible clearly says that the world was created in six days, however....... it gives no date for the beginning of the work. It would be a mistake to become embroiled in too much controversy about the date of creation and lose a friend in the process!
 
In the spirit of continuing the debate/discussion....The word translated as evening at its' root means mixed, the word translated as morning is the opposite so unmixed or set in order. As an example, If you bought a (cheap) chess set in the beginning you open the box and set the board down.
The pieces are all mixed in a bag, so you open the bag and separate the black and white pieces. This is step 1. Then you get all the pawns and put them in their place. They were mixed with the other pieces but now are set in order, this is step 2. Next you set the rooks (castles) again they were mixed but now are in their place. This is step 3. Now you set the knights from the mix to their place. This is step 4. Next you set the bishops. This is step 5. Now you set the king and queen. This is step 6. Now you look over the board and see that everything is in its' proper place and it is good. You had a mixed state and you then unmixed the pieces each in its' own time. Likewise the Earth was void and without form and God brought it into a state of order, each in its' own time. There is no embedded definition for evening or morning or day. These words are most often used for the definition you have given but are not always.
 
Dave F. said:
In the spirit of continuing the debate/discussion....The word translated as evening at its' root means mixed, the word translated as morning is the opposite so unmixed or set in order. As an example, If you bought a (cheap) chess set in the beginning you open the box and set the board down.
The pieces are all mixed in a bag, so you open the bag and separate the black and white pieces. This is step 1. Then you get all the pawns and put them in their place. They were mixed with the other pieces but now are set in order, this is step 2. Next you set the rooks (castles) again they were mixed but now are in their place. This is step 3. Now you set the knights from the mix to their place. This is step 4. Next you set the bishops. This is step 5. Now you set the king and queen. This is step 6. Now you look over the board and see that everything is in its' proper place and it is good. You had a mixed state and you then unmixed the pieces each in its' own time. Likewise the Earth was void and without form and God brought it into a state of order, each in its' own time. There is no embedded definition for evening or morning or day. These words are most often used for the definition you have given but are not always.
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So then......was there a Pre-Adamic Age when angels were the key focus of God’s dealings. Was that a state of disorder?

Would you agree that "The heavens" mean the whole complete universe consisting of billions of galaxies with billions of stars and planets. Our minds cannot even begin to grasp the wonders and limitless power of God, which the universe displays.

Then In this very first verse of the Bible, Genesis 1:1, God singles out the earth as the most important planet in the entire universe.

Could this be because God has a tremendous purpose to use the earth as the center of the universe.????

I believe that It is on earth that God will establish His Eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth, after He has first refined and cleansed the earth by His physical and spiritual fire during the Great White Throne Judgement Age.

How long ago was it when God commanded and instantaneously created the earth with the rest of the universe? The Bible does not say. However, all we have to do is OBSERVE star distances and many other modern scientific methods all show us that it was many millions of years ago when ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth’.

Now then, from what we have read here, consider for a moment what the Bible actually says and what YEC promoters says.........

The Bible says that God created the earth in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the earth in the first day.

The Bible says that God created the sun and the moon in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the sun and the moon in the fourth day.

The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Thoughts!!!
 
Major said:
So then......was there a Pre-Adamic Age when angels were the key focus of God’s dealings. Was that a state of disorder?
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I don't know. I only know that the angels were created, I do not know of the details of how or when. I do know that there is an order to the angels ie. Arch angels over angels. Perhaps that is a rank as opposed to an order. I do, however, agree with everything else you posted.
 
Dave F. said:
I don't know. I only know that the angels were created, I do not know of the details of how or when. I do know that there is an order to the angels ie. Arch angels over angels. Perhaps that is a rank as opposed to an order. I do, however, agree with everything else you posted.
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Agree.

Angels in the Bible appear to have a rank and order. The angel hierarchy is supported by Jude 9, when the angel Michael is called an “archangel”—a title that indicates rule or authority over other angels. Actually, he is the only angle to be called an Arch Angel.

He’s also called “one of the chief princes” in Daniel 10:13, and appears to lead God’s angelic army in Revelation 12: ......
“Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated” (Revelation 12:7–8).

Paul also tells us that the Lord will return from heaven “with the archangel’s call” (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Scripture doesn’t tell us if this refers to Michael, or if there are other archangels as well.

Gabriel is the only other angel named in the Bible, but he is never referred to as an "arch" angel, just powerful.
He’s mentioned in Daniel 8:16 and 9:21 as a messenger who comes from God to speak to Daniel. He’s also identified as God’s messenger in Luke 1. He tells Zechariah,.......“I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God” (Luke 1:19).

Then we read, “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin . . . and the virgin’s name was Mary” (Luke 1:26–27).

There may be a hint at the creation of angelic beings on the first day of creation, when we read that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1), immediately followed by, “the earth was without form and void” (Genesis 1:2).

There’s no mention of the heavens in this second verse. This may be intended to contrast the emptiness of the earth is with the heavens, where God already created angelic beings. This idea could be supported by Job, where we read that “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” when God laid the “cornerstone” of the earth and sunk its “bases” (Job 38:6–7).

If the angels (“the sons of God”) shouted for joy when God was forming the earth, this could imply that God created the angelic beings early on the first day, or that they were already in existence.......However, this is only speculation.

Though we are not told exactly when they were created, it could be sometime before the earth was created.

God spoke to Job saying in 38:4 & 7,..........
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. . . when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
 
Major said:
If the angels (“the sons of God”) shouted for joy when God was forming the earth, this could imply that God created the angelic beings early on the first day, or that they were already in existence.......However, this is only speculation.
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This then leads to the question of when did Satan fall? Is that what you were talking about being a pre-adamic age?
 
Dave F. said:
This then leads to the question of when did Satan fall? Is that what you were talking about being a pre-adamic age?
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Yes.

The Scriptures tell us why Satan fell, and how he fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred.

Following only the Scriptures, we know that Jesus, the eternal Son of God, witnessed Satan’s fall, and He says so in Luke 10:18: .....
“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Now we also know from the Scriptures that the angels were created before the earth as seen in Job 38:4–7.......
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? (6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; (7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The "sons of God" are the angels!

So it appears that Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden. Doesn't that therefore indicate that Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or millions of years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say.
 
Major said:
Yes.

The Scriptures tell us why Satan fell, and how he fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred.

Following only the Scriptures, we know that Jesus, the eternal Son of God, witnessed Satan’s fall, and He says so in Luke 10:18: .....
“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Now we also know from the Scriptures that the angels were created before the earth as seen in Job 38:4–7.......
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? (6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; (7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The "sons of God" are the angels!

So it appears that Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden. Doesn't that therefore indicate that Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or millions of years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say.
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Most all scholars I am familiar with say that the book of Job pre-dated the writings of Moses. So then in Job 1:6-7 we see.......
“One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’”.

So then, apparently at that time, again according to the Scriptures, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. That means he had access to God as an angel. Just something to consider.

Question......Is a coincidence that in Genesis 3, shortly after God created Adam and Eve, Satan appeared on the scene as the serpent in the garden. Doesn't that suggest that The earth was—and still is—his domain. Does this say to you that he had been cast down to the earth before man's creation took place.

Whether God has discontinued this access is a matter of debate for another thread.
 
Dave F. said:
In the spirit of continuing the debate/discussion....The word translated as evening at its' root means mixed, the word translated as morning is the opposite so unmixed or set in order. As an example, If you bought a (cheap) chess set in the beginning you open the box and set the board down.
The pieces are all mixed in a bag, so you open the bag and separate the black and white pieces. This is step 1. Then you get all the pawns and put them in their place. They were mixed with the other pieces but now are set in order, this is step 2. Next you set the rooks (castles) again they were mixed but now are in their place. This is step 3. Now you set the knights from the mix to their place. This is step 4. Next you set the bishops. This is step 5. Now you set the king and queen. This is step 6. Now you look over the board and see that everything is in its' proper place and it is good. You had a mixed state and you then unmixed the pieces each in its' own time. Likewise the Earth was void and without form and God brought it into a state of order, each in its' own time. There is no embedded definition for evening or morning or day. These words are most often used for the definition you have given but are not always.
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Check Mate!
 
“You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God…You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings” (Ezekiel 28:12–17 NIV).
So Lucifer (who became Satan) was a guardian cherub in Eden, Ezekiel tells us Lucifer was blameless. If he was blameless in the garden (at first) doesn't that suggest that the fall happened in the time after creation was complete?
 
Dave F. said:
“You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God…You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings” (Ezekiel 28:12–17 NIV).
So Lucifer (who became Satan) was a guardian cherub in Eden, Ezekiel tells us Lucifer was blameless. If he was blameless in the garden (at first) doesn't that suggest that the fall happened in the time after creation was complete?
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I think that he was NOT blameless in the Garden but was there because God had judged him. I do not think that there is a clear answer.

I would say that he was cast out of heaven because pride was found in him and since we know that is the case, it seems that he was in the Garden before Adam. He was created before Adam so there is no reason to think he was not removed from heaven to the earth before Adam.

We know from the Scriptures that the angels were created before the earth according to Job 38 and chapter 1.
Obviously, that means then that Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden. Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Nothing else makes any sense.
 
Dave F. said:
In the spirit of continuing the debate/discussion....The word translated as evening at its' root means mixed, the word translated as morning is the opposite so unmixed or set in order. As an example, If you bought a (cheap) chess set in the beginning you open the box and set the board down.
The pieces are all mixed in a bag, so you open the bag and separate the black and white pieces. This is step 1. Then you get all the pawns and put them in their place. They were mixed with the other pieces but now are set in order, this is step 2. Next you set the rooks (castles) again they were mixed but now are in their place. This is step 3. Now you set the knights from the mix to their place. This is step 4. Next you set the bishops. This is step 5. Now you set the king and queen. This is step 6. Now you look over the board and see that everything is in its' proper place and it is good. You had a mixed state and you then unmixed the pieces each in its' own time. Likewise the Earth was void and without form and God brought it into a state of order, each in its' own time. There is no embedded definition for evening or morning or day. These words are most often used for the definition you have given but are not always.
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Interestingly, the Brown-Driver_Brigg Hebrew Dictionary defined "evening" in Genesis 1 as:

1.
a. evening, originally sunset, and hence perhaps לְעֵת ע׳ at the time of sunset Genesis 8:11 (J), Genesis 24:11 (J; || לְעֵת צֵאת הַשֹּׁאֲבֹת), 2 Samuel 11:2; Isaiah 17:14 and (of the day of י׳) Zechariah 14:7, עֵת הָע׳ Joshua 8:29 (JE) †; usually ע׳ alone = time of sunset, evening: בָּע׳ in the evening Genesis 19:1 (J), Genesis 29:23 (E), Exodus 12:18 (P), Deuteronomy 16:6 (+ שֶׁמֶשׁ כְּבוֺא), 1 Kings 22:35 (compare || 2 Chronicles 18:34 where + לְעֵת בּוֺא הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ) + 20 times + בָּע(ֿ)בָּע׳ 2 Chronicles 13:11 (twice in verse) = every evening; לָע׳ at evening only late: † 1 Chronicles 16:40; 1 Chronicles 23:30; 2 Chronicles 2:3; Ezra 3:3; Psalm 59:7; Psalm 59:15; Psalm 90:6; Ecclesiastes 11:6 †; לִפְנוֺת ע׳ at the turn of evening † Genesis 24:63 (J), Deuteronomy 23:12; ע׳ as adverb accusative Exodus 16:6 (P), Psalm 55:18; as marking duration of impurity, in phrase עַדהָֿע׳ Leviticus 11:24 + 30 times P + Leviticus 22:6 (H); of Day of Atonement מֵע׳ עַדעֿ׳ Leviticus 23:32 (P).
b. dual in phrase (only P) בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם between the two evenings, i.e. probably between sunset and dark (see Thes [various views fully given]; otherwise DiExodus 12:6; on form as possibly only expanded plural see Ges§ 88 c), † Exodus 12:6; Exodus 16:12; Exodus 29:39, 41; Exodus 30:8; Leviticus 23:5; Numbers 9:3, 5, 11; Numbers 28:4, 8 †.
c. other phrases are: צִלְלֵי ע׳ Jeremiah 6:4 (distinguished from צָהֳרָ֑יִם and לָ֑יְלָה Jeremiah 6:5), מִנְחַה (הָ)ע׳ 2 Kings 16:15; Ezra 9:4, 5; Psalm 141:2; Daniel 9:21; זְאֵבֵי ע׳ see I. זְאֵב; for all combinations with בֹּקֶר morning, see ב׳ 1d, e.
2. (late poetry) = night, עָ֑רֶב Job 7:4; compare בְּנֶשֶׁף בְּעֶרֶב יוֺם Proverbs 7:9 (|| בְּאִישׁוֺן לַיְלָה וִאֲפֵלָה).

For "morning," it says:

בֹּ֫קֶר noun masculine Exodus 10:13 morning (Late Hebrew id.; from split, penetrate, as the dawn the darkness, light through cloud-rifts, etc.) — ב׳ Genesis 1:5 + (always absolute); plural בְּקָרִים Job 7:18 + 4 times; —

MM
 
Major said:
The Bible says that God created the earth in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the earth in the first day.

The Bible says that God created the sun and the moon in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the sun and the moon in the fourth day.

The Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning;
YEC says that God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Thoughts!!!
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My thoughts are in relation to the many, many assumptions we sometimes tend to try and force into the biblical texts on the basis of our personal experiences. We are living in the finished work right now, which is that the sun existed long before we did, and so we are seeing the finished work.

In the creation days, however, the Lord creating a distinction between day and night, even before our sun was set in its place, that doesn't create any textual nor logical crisis within the claims of the text.

In my past experiences on this topic, many tried to force conjecturized meaning into the text in an attempt to force their contrived dichotomies into the narrative as a means for bolstering their own beliefs about the topic. A planet without a star (sun) is still bound by the laws of nature, meaning that even without a sun, the lawful boundary between morning and evening is still intact and meaningful throughout the entire universe. This is what BibleLover stated earlier in this thread...maybe not in so many words, but with the meaning still intact.

MM
 
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