The Middle East. (8) Israel becomes a Nation and Countdown.

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I guess this is where we have the right to exercise our opinions.

I had a Jewish pastor at one time. He was a converted Jew... and he had such a wonderful way of explaining this. At least it was easy for me to understand... which is the only reason I have a bit of an understanding.

I do not feel that God having a chosen people STANDS in the way of us INDEED all being ONE family. Our common denominator is of course the precious blood of JESUS CHRIST.

I am not able to throw away the historical and biblical fact that God made a covenant with His CHOSEN people. ( of which He will certainly fulfill ).
I'm not sure how people have found a way to DISMISS this and decide that it is now nil and void.

My brain is so simple.... I rejoice in the fact that I was INCLUDED as a gentile.... That gives me cause to REJOICE.
The idea of the Church becoming "Israel" was developed by the eastern and western churches prior to the Great Schism, which accounts for its wide acceptance. Unfortunately the hatred of Jews (i.e. antisemitism) was rife in the medieval Christian lands primarily because Jews refused to assimilate, but also because of the debts owed to them by the nobles, kings, and popes who borrowed heavily to pay for the Crusades. At that time the Church forbade loaning money and collecting interest, so not many Christians were willing to loan out money. Thus, the Jews, who could charge interest, became the chief financiers of the Christian nobility. However, when the Jews tried to collect on the debts, the nobility would generate persecution and pogroms using the citizenry to drive out the Jews thus allowing the nobles to avoid paying their debts.
 
The idea of the Church becoming "Israel" was developed by the eastern and western churches prior to the Great Schism,
Ok.... so I think I have a better understanding of this dilemma. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.

The idea of the Church becoming Israel is not something that remotely makes sense to me... and is not something I would dare to even contemplate. It is actually in my estimation a very ARROGANT view to take. This is a HUGE problem.

But here we have the nature of humanity trying to figure out the mysteries of God.
 
Ok.... so I think I have a better understanding of this dilemma. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.

The idea of the Church becoming Israel is not something that remotely makes sense to me... and is not something I would dare to even contemplate. It is actually in my estimation a very ARROGANT view to take. This is a HUGE problem.

But here we have the nature of humanity trying to figure out the mysteries of God.
It is indeed arrogant, like all antisemitism. The medieval Church wanted to "cancel" (to use our modern cultural phraseology) Israel because of its leaders' hatred of Jews.
 
It is indeed arrogant, like all antisemitism. The medieval Church wanted to "cancel" (to use our modern cultural phraseology) Israel because of its leaders' hatred of Jews.
Again... my ONLY concern was that this thread was in danger of getting derailed with non-biblical opinions.

God bless everyone.
 
I must agree. There is one seed (not seedS) of Abraham and that is Jesus Christ. And those who believe in Christ are the true Israel. As gentiles we have been grafted into the promise. Romans 11:11-31. Some of the branches (Israel) had been broken off because of their unbelief. But, those of Israel who do believe will be grafted back in.

I do not think as Christians we should be blindly supporting Israel because we've been falsely led to believe that it's our duty as Christians.
My friend......what our sister posted is "Replacement Theology" and it is not Biblical.

What God promised to Isreal God will keep those promises. Now, allow me to say to you and others reading this that Important to the understanding of Israel is Christ’s role as “true Israel.”

What Prim90 is saying is that "Jesus is the complete fulfillment of Israel and He is the “true Israel.”

So then, all those who are “in Christ” whether Jew or Gentile are now Israel based on their identification with Christ. Thus, there is no future restoration for the nation Israel. Or in other words, since Jesus is true Israel, those who belong to Him are now “Israel,” so there will be no restoration of national Israel.

Now there is one real problem in that idea. The problem with this view is that it is not found in Scripture.

In fact, it is refuted by explicit texts in both testaments that indicate otherwise.

Romans 11:25-26
“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved.”

Is all of Israel saved today?????

My only purpose here is to show that this false understanding of what Christ as “true Israel” means for the nation Israel is not biblical.

When we study and learn the teachings of Christian philosophies, we find that it is Amillennialists, postmillennialists, and preterists who believe that God has permanently rejected the nation of Israel because the nation of Israel had been historically rebellious and rejected Christ as their Messiah in A.D. 33. They believe the church is now spiritual Israel, and has replaced ethnic Israel.

What does that actually mean then. The result of this teaching is that the nation of Israel has no future in God’s future plan. In addition, they teach all of the Old Testament prophecies are about the church. The effect is far reaching for this means the prophecies in almost every book of the Bible including the major and minor prophets and Revelation are history books, because they are interpreted allegorically.

So, what I am saying is Biblical and it is that God is not finished with Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 tells us that Israel has a future. For the prophecies state that Israel is currently partially hardened, but someday that will no longer be true. That means God is not finished with ethnic Israel, His chosen people. The church has not replaced Israel. The church is neither ethnic nor spiritual Israel.

Today, every believer is a spiritual son of other faithful men who fulfilled the great commission given to us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “make disciples of all the nations.”

We are called to make spiritual sons and spiritual daughters for the body of Christ. Every believer will someday enjoy the blessings of living in the millennial kingdom while Christ reigns as king. At the end of His reign, He will give the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then the present earth and heavens will be destroyed and new ones created (2 Peter 3: 3:10-13; Revelation 20:11; 21:1). Then every spiritual son of Abraham will live with our God.
Source....https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-studies/doctrinal-studies/spiritual-israel-why-the-church-has-not-replaced-israel/
 
Im not familiar with replacement theology. This is just my understanding.

It's not about Israel being replaced, it's about Gentiles being grafted in and the Jews who abandon their unbelief being grafted in again. Being united as 1 believing group of people.

Luke 11:23 says that "And they also, IF they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is able to grafted them in again.
The believing gentiles are united to the remnant of believing Jews and is the Israel of God, a new creation (Galations 6:13-16).
I understand Romans to be speaking of 2 different groups of Jews, those who believe and those who do not believe.

Also, I dont believe the god of unbelieving modern day Israel is the same God because Jesus says in
Luke 10: 16
“The one who listens to you listens to Me; and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and the one who rejects Me rejects Him [My heavenly Father] who sent Me.”

If you don't except Christ as the begotten Son of God, then your god is not my God.
 
Im not familiar with replacement theology. This is just my understanding.

It's not about Israel being replaced, it's about Gentiles being grafted in and the Jews who abandon their unbelief being grafted in again. Being united as 1 believing group of people.

Luke 11:23 says that "And they also, IF they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is able to grafted them in again.
The believing gentiles are united to the remnant of believing Jews and is the Israel of God, a new creation (Galations 6:13-16).
I understand Romans to be speaking of 2 different groups of Jews, those who believe and those who do not believe.

Also, I dont believe the god of unbelieving modern day Israel is the same God because Jesus says in
Luke 10: 16
“The one who listens to you listens to Me; and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and the one who rejects Me rejects Him [My heavenly Father] who sent Me.”

If you don't except Christ as the begotten Son of God, then your god is not my God.
A graft is not the same as the tree in which it is grafted. When I used to work in the eastern Washington apple orchards, I used to see red delicious apple trees on which a branch of yellow golden delicious apples had been grafted. The trees produced their normal red fruits except the grafted branches produced yellow fruit. There ended up being one tree with two different colored apples on it.
 
Im not familiar with replacement theology. This is just my understanding.

It's not about Israel being replaced, it's about Gentiles being grafted in and the Jews who abandon their unbelief being grafted in again. Being united as 1 believing group of people.

Luke 11:23 says that "And they also, IF they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted in, for God is able to grafted them in again.
The believing gentiles are united to the remnant of believing Jews and is the Israel of God, a new creation (Galations 6:13-16).
I understand Romans to be speaking of 2 different groups of Jews, those who believe and those who do not believe.

Also, I dont believe the god of unbelieving modern day Israel is the same God because Jesus says in
Luke 10: 16
“The one who listens to you listens to Me; and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and the one who rejects Me rejects Him [My heavenly Father] who sent Me.”

If you don't except Christ as the begotten Son of God, then your god is not my God.
My dear sister.....NO ONE is saying that Christ is not the only begotton Son of God! I am perplexed as to what you are saying.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh!!! He is the God-Man! That is not the focus of the thread. I believe that the thread is Israel as a notion!

May I also point out that the God of Israel today is the same as the God of 5000 years ago! Same God, same message!

Now my comment about "replacement" was concerning a growing false teaching in Christianity that says the Church has "replaced" Israel and is now the recipient of the Promises God made to Israel. THAT is not Biblical which is what I said.
 
I must agree. There is one seed (not seedS) of Abraham and that is Jesus Christ. And those who believe in Christ are the true Israel. As gentiles we have been grafted into the promise. Romans 11:11-31. Some of the branches (Israel) had been broken off because of their unbelief. But, those of Israel who do believe will be grafted back in.

I do not think as Christians we should be blindly supporting Israel because we've been falsely led to believe that it's our duty as Christians.
Genesis 12:3.......
"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”

Personally, it is clear that we are to bless, support and help Israel as much as possible. The day we as a nation turn away from Israel, we are doomed.

You know, there are several Christian men who over the years have said that the reason God raised up the USA when He did, was so that in these End Times, we, the USA would be the protector of the nation Israel. I tend to agree with that idea.
 
My dear sister.....NO ONE is saying that Christ is not the only begotton Son of God! I am perplexed as to what you are saying.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh!!! He is the God-Man! That is not the focus of the thread. I believe that the thread is Israel as a notion!

May I also point out that the God of Israel today is the same as the God of 5000 years ago! Same God, same message!


Now my comment about "replacement" was concerning a growing false teaching in Christianity that says the Church has "replaced" Israel and is now the recipient of the Promises God made to Israel. THAT is not Biblical which is what I said.

I lack the words to further clarify what I mean. The Nation of Israel actively in the secular, political and religious deny Christ. And As a Christian, God's people are those who accept Jesus as the messiah. And to somehow, make an exception for a "nation" that actively denys Christ, the seed and blessing of Abraham, is hard to grasp.


In regards to Gensis 12: 3
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

The blessing of Abraham is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3: 13-14
 
Personally, it is clear that we are to bless, support and help Israel as much as possible. The day we as a nation turn away from Israel, we are doomed.

You know, there are several Christian men who over the years have said that the reason God raised up the USA when He did, was so that in these End Times, we, the USA would be the protector of the nation Israel. I tend to agree with that idide
I cant stand with a nation that actively persecutes and attacks Christians. I stand with my brothers and sister's in Christ. Not Israel.

Israel has a lot of Christians fooled. Believing we should protect and aide "God's people" when these very people are physically and verbally attacking Christians in the region, spiting on Christian visitors to the holy land and threatening them with death. Our brothers and sisters are the people we should be concerned about.
 
Genesis 12:3.......
"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”
You need to start from verse 1, then you will realise that God spoke this to Abraham and not to the zionist nation.

Personally, it is clear that we are to bless, support and help Israel as much as possible. The day we as a nation turn away from Israel, we are doomed.
This is only your opinion and you did not support this properly by Scriptutre

Especially the western world is already more or less doomed.
Just have a good look at your own country...and it will only get worse, a lot worse !
Only total repentance would bring us back to God.

Israel has a lot of Christians fooled. Believing we should protect and aide "God's people" when these very people are physically and verbally attacking Christians in the region, spiting on Christian visitors to the holy land and threatening them with death. Our brothers and sisters are the people we should be concerned about.
I fully agree with everything you wrote.

Just adding another thought for those who support Israel:
If you did a bit more research then you would find that many Jews are against Zionism.

cocoa, here is another scripture:
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham,
saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed" (Gal 3:8 ESV)

It is all about the Gospel.
It is all about one King, one faith, one Kingdom
Christ has accomplished all. May His name be great among the nations
Paul wrote we should have sincere and pure devotion to Christ .
The great commision is to go and preach the Gospel and not to send carnal weapons around the world.

In Christ alone...
 
I must agree. There is one seed (not seedS) of Abraham and that is Jesus Christ. And those who believe in Christ are the true Israel. As gentiles we have been grafted into the promise. Romans 11:11-31. Some of the branches (Israel) had been broken off because of their unbelief. But, those of Israel who do believe will be grafted back in.

I do not think as Christians we should be blindly supporting Israel because we've been falsely led to believe that it's our duty as Christians.
Cocoa . Yes it’s always been about one seed. That seed being Jesus Christ and nothing more. Going all the way back to
Promise given to mother Eve where the future messiah and redeemer would one day. crush the serpents head . Paul aptly explains the seed as the seed of Christ and not as seeds as mentioned in the book of Galatians
 
I'm having a difficult time keeping up with these terms that get injected into the conversation... such as Zionist. I will look that up. I have tried to stick my paw into a subject that is rather over my head.

Being a Canadian and having been taught at one time by a converted Jew... I guess I have come to believe that Israel is important historically and biblically. I have no reason to QUESTION this teaching.

Also as a Canadian... What can I do to change the state of the world???? The answer is NOTHING.

I don't think being PRO-ISRAEL and believing that the JEWS are God's CHOSEN people... in any way... shape or form INDICATE that we have been TRICKED... DECEIVED or even FALSELY taught. I would think that ERRING on the side of caution is the better alternative. We are called to pray... and GOD will HAVE HIS WAY.

I am GRATEFUL that I am a GENTILE...I was grafted in... There is NO PROBLEM... and there is NO COMPETITION. There is NO threat by stating that the Jews are God's CHOSEN people. That is between Israel and GOD. NOT my business to decide differently.

I have been INCLUDED in SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE because I accepted CHRIST as my SAVIOUR. I am still ONE with the ENTIRE body of CHRIST.

The promises and position of ISRAEL do not affect my life or salvation. However.... someone seems to have decided that it was TIME for a change and removed the covenant that GOD MADE. This does NOT wash with me.

Anyways... People believe what they are taught... I guess one must decide which side they are on.

God bless everyone participating in this discussion. Thank you for letting me add my two cents. HA.
 
I lack the words to further clarify what I mean. The Nation of Israel actively in the secular, political and religious deny Christ. And As a Christian, God's people are those who accept Jesus as the messiah. And to somehow, make an exception for a "nation" that actively denys Christ, the seed and blessing of Abraham, is hard to grasp.


In regards to Gensis 12: 3
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

The blessing of Abraham is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3: 13-14
Cocoa, I understand how difficult it is to understand God's relationship with the people of the nation of Israel. The Old Testament illustrates the complexity of that relationship. No matter how far they strayed, God never stopped loving Israel. Time and again they strayed, he chastened, they repented, he blessed them again, and then the cycle would start again. God has never stopped loving Israel, just as the prophets promised. Nothing has replaced Israel in his heart. So, despite the waywardness of modern Israel, God still loves them and will chasten them, and they will repent again, only this time the repentance will be different--they will accept Jesus as their Messiah, and the blessings foretold by Isaiah will be bestowed upon them and the whole world.

God bless you
 
Staff Note - Because of Belief System differences and personality conflicts, there have been some angry responses from several participants in this thread. Therefore, a few posts from multiple participants have been removed.

This thread will remain closed permanently, as has been requested.

Thank you.



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