From what I understand, the Catholic Church in refreshing/repairing by steaming? made changes that would? make this impossible. I don't have it as a part of my faith because I already knew Jesus resurrected.
The Real Face Of Jesus - Natgeo Feature On The Shroud Of Turin: Thoughts?
- Thread starter Scripture Bird
- Start date
From what I understand, the Catholic Church in refreshing/repairing by steaming? made changes that would? make this impossible. I don't have it as a part of my faith because I already knew Jesus resurrected.
I don't see the shroud as something people hold faith in. Rather, I think this evidence reiterates the power and authority of Jesus and supports the faith.
In this age, the 21st century, we've developed technology that can take the evidence implanted in the shroud that was imprinted with that evidence thousands of years ago, and extrapolate it into the form and evidence the video outlines.
How perfect. When Jesus warned there would be a falling away from the truth of God and the spirit of his word, and we see that happening with greater frequency today, what better way to attract the scientists, who often deny God, the unbelievers, who would happen to see this National Geographic episode, and inspire the faithful, than with the shroud of Christ? Using the technology of today.
It resonates in teaching the truth of our Lord in modern terms, with contemporary evidence techniques used to extrapolate the proof that Jesus was real. There is no doubt for the faithful. But there is certainly compelling evidence that can speak to the unbelievers. And in this age, this can be a guidepost to redirect those who fall away.
In this age, the 21st century, we've developed technology that can take the evidence implanted in the shroud that was imprinted with that evidence thousands of years ago, and extrapolate it into the form and evidence the video outlines.
How perfect. When Jesus warned there would be a falling away from the truth of God and the spirit of his word, and we see that happening with greater frequency today, what better way to attract the scientists, who often deny God, the unbelievers, who would happen to see this National Geographic episode, and inspire the faithful, than with the shroud of Christ? Using the technology of today.
It resonates in teaching the truth of our Lord in modern terms, with contemporary evidence techniques used to extrapolate the proof that Jesus was real. There is no doubt for the faithful. But there is certainly compelling evidence that can speak to the unbelievers. And in this age, this can be a guidepost to redirect those who fall away.
Sorry to rain on ya'lls parade, but it's fake,
And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7
The Jews learned to embalm in Egypt, just read about Joesph,
But Joesph didn't have the time to embalm Jesus, but he did wrap him in linen strips,
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. John 19:40
Sorry 'bout that.
Blessings,
Gene
And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7
The Jews learned to embalm in Egypt, just read about Joesph,
But Joesph didn't have the time to embalm Jesus, but he did wrap him in linen strips,
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. John 19:40
Sorry 'bout that.
Blessings,
Gene
May I add the reason for the spices was to make a form of glue which caused the linen strips to glue or stick to the body, so when Peter and John went into the tomb they actually saw the cocoon that had wrapped Jesus' body, He just passed through it when He resurrected just like He did the stone walls of John Mark's mothers house, hence John tells us,
Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulcher (John), and he (John) saw, and believed. John 20:8
Blessings,
Gene
Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulcher (John), and he (John) saw, and believed. John 20:8
Blessings,
Gene
The reason Mary Magdalene went to the tomb was to apply the spices and whatever they did for burial then, Noble Bro. Did you watch the video? It's no skin off my faith if it is fake - but I am assuming this proof of resurrection is going to be needed. I met an aristocratic frenchman (owned a castle) and he said his family gave the shroud, way back when, to the Catholic Church. I have no way of knowing if what he said is true but the family has some kind of agreement and he claims he saw and touched the shroud when he was a child. The castle was real at any rate.
Sorry dear ladies, Scripture is never wrong, Scripture affirms science, not the other way around and Scripture clearly says He was wound in linen strips and His face was covered with a separate cloth.
So tell me how did the folded cloth become fused with the shroud?
...and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. John 20:7
Joesph brought spices too,
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.John 19:39, 40
The Jews learned mummification in Egypt, ...it all fits.
Blessings,
Gene
So tell me how did the folded cloth become fused with the shroud?
...and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. John 20:7
Joesph brought spices too,
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.John 19:39, 40
The Jews learned mummification in Egypt, ...it all fits.
Blessings,
Gene
Nothing in the scripture counters what is known of the shroud. nor the The Sudarium of Oviedo. And it is the Sudarium of Oviedo. Not the disrespect you accord it by calling it a napkin.
Furthermore, you went off scripture when you referred to embalming. There is nothing in scripture that states Jesus/Yeshua was embalmed. His body rose from the tomb and left his wrappings behind. Not discarded away in the tomb. Further, the strips that would have wound the shroud about him do not have to be at issue here.
Further, the spices were to offset the unpleasant odor a corpse would emit in a tomb. This was commonplace in Jewish burial customs. And as this tomb was donated by a rich man it is not unheard of that the spices and sweet herbs would have been part of tradition and in abundance.
And please, don't apologize for your remarks. You're not hurting anyone here so as to be contrite.
Okay, I was trying to be friendly and polite, but I will accept you don't have a fragile ego.
As for the napkin thing, I didn't coin the term
you might want to take it up with the King James translators,And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7 KJV 1611
And show disrespect to a material object, ....Nehushtan!!! where are you coming from with that?
Also you need to be more attentive to detail, I didn't say Joseph embalmed Jesus, I said in my first post they learned embalming in Egypt and gave a reference, made mention of Joesph, the last son of Issac. Gen 50:2, 3, 26
"Not discarded away in the tomb."
What does this mean, ...where is that mentioned in the Word?
Further, the strips that would have wound the shroud about him do not have to be at issue here.
Of course they can't be an issue, even though Scripture clearly states Jesus was wound, wrapped in linen strips, ...otherwise that would prove the shroud to be the phoney that it is
May I humbly suggest you read the customs of Josephus and Eldershiem as to the customs of Jewish burial during the time of Jesus, I have much more confidence in them than ccr dogma.
Blessings,
Gene
Who had the misfortune of this dastardly deed,
.....ough, can you imagine the stench, ...and maggots crawling over their fingers and hands (place vomit smiley (?) here), boy I bet they had people lining up for that job, ...just imagine the want ads of the Jerusalem Post, ...Seamstress wanted! 
...seriously, Jews wouldn't touch a dead corps because that would defile them, and they had so lost the flavor and meaning of the Law Mat 21:19 if they were to sin they wouldn't be allowed to enter the Temple.
Unless you are suggesting, that common know theory that goes against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, ...that suggests order comes out of disorder.
Blessings,
Gene
See, I was going to respond to your post to me until I read your post here:
Who had the misfortune of this dastardly deed,
...seriously, Jews wouldn't touch a dead corps because that would defile them, and they had so lost the flavor and meaning of the Law Mat 21:19 if they were to sin they wouldn't be allowed to enter the Temple.
Unless you are suggesting, that common know theory that goes against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, ...that suggests order comes out of disorder.
Blessings,
Gene
Aw sis, don't like my humor, you gave me the impression you didn't have a fragile ego, my bad, should I apologize now or just leave and not come back?
Blessings,
Gene
I'd appreciate if you'd leave and not come back, since you offered.Aw sis, don't like my humor, you gave me the impression you didn't have a fragile ego, my bad, should I apologize now or just leave and not come back?
Blessings,
Gene
And I'm not your sis.
And while I do not have a fragile ego, it is not an example of such to object to your behavior. I didn't open this thread so that mockers, egoists fond of making apologies to others because they think they're impacting their faith with feigned knowledge, while making grotesque jokes about Christ, could exercise their demonic spirit against Christians.
Thanks for your offer. I appreciate your being a man/woman of your word and moving on now. Because you've certainly said enough to show you're not interested in adult conversation, nor in respectful debate.
Goodbye.
Looks like someone got their wish. And I'm guessing that they followed JPT from another thread and forum of this website to harass. No one said that he was of the devil, but I said, on this other thread that the charismatic movement is dangerous. And I stand by what was said there. If I am understanding correctly, the same person pulled the same act last week.
@JustPassingThru The death linens of Jesus, whether you believe the shroud is real or not - would not have had any decay on them because there was none. I already believed in Christ's resurrection before I ever heard of the shroud. It is not part of my faith. I happen to believe it is real but if it is proven to be fake some time in the future - well, I've been wrong before. Whether you believe it's real or not shouldn't stop you from taking the time to watch the video. If it is real - then I have to assume there is good reason why it has come down to us altho that reason, right now, may not be clear.
@Scripture Bird JPT is a sweetheart once you get to know him. Mayhaps things got off on the "wrong foot". It is easy enough to misunderstand what someone has typed and their real intention. I have seen people flame off on each other because they misread each other's post and initially agreed with each other.
As for arguments? With over 40,000 Protestant denominations, alone, there are going to be doctrinal disagreements. When egos are forefront, things generally can be nasty. The nastiest ones involve packs with bullies. Best advice that I received here was to bring the HS to read and type posts. I also learned that you have to bring your love of God to any debate and remember that God loves the one you are disagreeing with just as much as you. It's been said about a zillion times before, but you can make any point justified by biblical authority when using sculpted, out of context and twisted scripture. If you go for the "heart" of scripture, you realize that understanding is clearer as is truth. I didn't really realize that there are no real contradictions in the Word when you look for the truth. In nasty arguments? I have found no one learns anything - not even how to avoid it in the future, most times. It is hard for me to believe that any other forums are any different, altho this is the only one I go to. And I have learned here and have gained great insight from some pretty marvelous people. And I learn much from civil debate, if only more people knew how to engage in it.
@JustPassingThru The death linens of Jesus, whether you believe the shroud is real or not - would not have had any decay on them because there was none. I already believed in Christ's resurrection before I ever heard of the shroud. It is not part of my faith. I happen to believe it is real but if it is proven to be fake some time in the future - well, I've been wrong before. Whether you believe it's real or not shouldn't stop you from taking the time to watch the video. If it is real - then I have to assume there is good reason why it has come down to us altho that reason, right now, may not be clear.
@Scripture Bird JPT is a sweetheart once you get to know him. Mayhaps things got off on the "wrong foot". It is easy enough to misunderstand what someone has typed and their real intention. I have seen people flame off on each other because they misread each other's post and initially agreed with each other.
As for arguments? With over 40,000 Protestant denominations, alone, there are going to be doctrinal disagreements. When egos are forefront, things generally can be nasty. The nastiest ones involve packs with bullies. Best advice that I received here was to bring the HS to read and type posts. I also learned that you have to bring your love of God to any debate and remember that God loves the one you are disagreeing with just as much as you. It's been said about a zillion times before, but you can make any point justified by biblical authority when using sculpted, out of context and twisted scripture. If you go for the "heart" of scripture, you realize that understanding is clearer as is truth. I didn't really realize that there are no real contradictions in the Word when you look for the truth. In nasty arguments? I have found no one learns anything - not even how to avoid it in the future, most times. It is hard for me to believe that any other forums are any different, altho this is the only one I go to. And I have learned here and have gained great insight from some pretty marvelous people. And I learn much from civil debate, if only more people knew how to engage in it.
I don't hold with people who make fun of Jesus' state in the tomb. Nor with those who feign knowledge in order to assail people's faith. Wikipedia is not your friend. As they say. But many resort to that in order to use the information there to address any issue in, in this case, a Christian forum where they wish to Troll and offend.
You see, someone who truly knew the Hebrew of the scriptural account of our Lord's burial in the tomb would know that "napkin" is a poor English translation of the original reference to the mitznefet.
It was that which covered Jesus' face in the tomb.
They would also know that the tachrichin, what we know as the shroud of Turin today, is in itself a common burial garment for the Jewish dead. In fact, it is something that can be purchased today if one is intending to set their estate in order and have that garment included in their burial rite.
John 20:7
Yochanan 20:7 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
7 And also the mitznefet (head wrapping), which had been upon the rosh of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, the mitznefet not lying with the tachrichin, (*my edit here* shroud of Turin) but apart, having been folded up in one place.
And the many pounds of herbs and spices, not to forget the oils that Jesus' body was anointed with after he was washed, are part of Jewish law. He was never embalmed, as was implied. If that did not apply embalming would have never been introduced into the discussion, since it is not scriptural. But it was intended to be inferred. As was the "glue" that was stated to have been created from those herbs that were brought into the tomb, and which were said to have been brought there in order to make the glue to hold the wrappings. None of this is true, none of this applies in Jewish ritual. Nor is it in scripture.
But it was proclaimed as the point for point reason why the Shroud of Turin is a fake. There is certainly a fraud being perpetrated here. But it is not in evidence as relates to the shroud information in the video or scripture related to Jesus' burial.
John 19:40
Yochanan 19:40
Therefore, they took the Guf HaYeshua (Body of Yehoshua) and bound it in linen clothes with spices as is the burial minhag with the Yehudim.
Jesus was buried according to Jewish law. Aka/ Halakhah. The Minhag (Minhagim) =custom/customs. Yehudim=Jews.
Life is far too precious to tolerate people of evil intent. I lurked at a site that was purported to be a Christian community and I can tell you it was anything but. The venom and hatred there, all perpetrated by an atheist owner who adopted innumerable sock accounts in order to generate inflammatory posts and inspire an atmosphere of contention so as to increase thread page counts and increase the sites advertising revenue stream, was enlightening. What I witnessed there, because a friend is one of the few real people who are on staff and told me about the real mechanics behind the scenes, showed me how blessed true Christian communities are to come together in the real spirit of Christ.
Where two or more are gathered in his name...
I don't tolerate blasphemy of Christ. I don't condone jokes made about his rotted corpse and maggots in the shroud linen, and housekeepers, etc... This thread was started so as to discuss the contention that the Shroud of Turin has been demonstrated to be worthy of consideration as Christs burial shroud.
I respect there are those who don't agree. That's why there is a poll affording the skeptic a voice. What I don't invite into this thread are Trolls who presume to apologize for their behavior after they've mocked members here who review the evidence with respect and afford their personal faith filled opinions.
And that's just how it is. I ignore such individuals. Because while they demonstrate they are worthy of prayer, they are not worthy of attention that feeds their behavior so that it continues as it has. There hasn't been one post in this thread that that individual has committed to print that shows someone with a sweet heart in this matter.
And this, with all respect to you my sister, is the last I'll say on the individual in question.
I'd really appreciate this thread returning to the topic at hand.
Thank you for your sharing your genuine thoughts on this matter. And for your understanding as to my point of view. God bless.
@Scripture Bird JPT is a sweetheart once you get to know him. Mayhaps things got off on the "wrong foot". It is easy enough to misunderstand what someone has typed and their real intention. I have seen people flame off on each other because they misread each other's post and initially agreed with each other.
As for arguments? With over 40,000 Protestant denominations, alone, there are going to be doctrinal disagreements. When egos are forefront, things generally can be nasty. The nastiest ones involve packs with bullies. Best advice that I received here was to bring the HS to read and type posts. I also learned that you have to bring your love of God to any debate and remember that God loves the one you are disagreeing with just as much as you. It's been said about a zillion times before, but you can make any point justified by biblical authority when using sculpted, out of context and twisted scripture. If you go for the "heart" of scripture, you realize that understanding is clearer as is truth. I didn't really realize that there are no real contradictions in the Word when you look for the truth. In nasty arguments? I have found no one learns anything - not even how to avoid it in the future, most times. It is hard for me to believe that any other forums are any different, altho this is the only one I go to. And I have learned here and have gained great insight from some pretty marvelous people. And I learn much from civil debate, if only more people knew how to engage in it. [/quote]
You see, someone who truly knew the Hebrew of the scriptural account of our Lord's burial in the tomb would know that "napkin" is a poor English translation of the original reference to the mitznefet.
It was that which covered Jesus' face in the tomb.
They would also know that the tachrichin, what we know as the shroud of Turin today, is in itself a common burial garment for the Jewish dead. In fact, it is something that can be purchased today if one is intending to set their estate in order and have that garment included in their burial rite.
John 20:7
Yochanan 20:7 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
7 And also the mitznefet (head wrapping), which had been upon the rosh of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, the mitznefet not lying with the tachrichin, (*my edit here* shroud of Turin) but apart, having been folded up in one place.
And the many pounds of herbs and spices, not to forget the oils that Jesus' body was anointed with after he was washed, are part of Jewish law. He was never embalmed, as was implied. If that did not apply embalming would have never been introduced into the discussion, since it is not scriptural. But it was intended to be inferred. As was the "glue" that was stated to have been created from those herbs that were brought into the tomb, and which were said to have been brought there in order to make the glue to hold the wrappings. None of this is true, none of this applies in Jewish ritual. Nor is it in scripture.
But it was proclaimed as the point for point reason why the Shroud of Turin is a fake. There is certainly a fraud being perpetrated here. But it is not in evidence as relates to the shroud information in the video or scripture related to Jesus' burial.
John 19:40
Yochanan 19:40
Therefore, they took the Guf HaYeshua (Body of Yehoshua) and bound it in linen clothes with spices as is the burial minhag with the Yehudim.
Jesus was buried according to Jewish law. Aka/ Halakhah. The Minhag (Minhagim) =custom/customs. Yehudim=Jews.
Life is far too precious to tolerate people of evil intent. I lurked at a site that was purported to be a Christian community and I can tell you it was anything but. The venom and hatred there, all perpetrated by an atheist owner who adopted innumerable sock accounts in order to generate inflammatory posts and inspire an atmosphere of contention so as to increase thread page counts and increase the sites advertising revenue stream, was enlightening. What I witnessed there, because a friend is one of the few real people who are on staff and told me about the real mechanics behind the scenes, showed me how blessed true Christian communities are to come together in the real spirit of Christ.
Where two or more are gathered in his name...
I don't tolerate blasphemy of Christ. I don't condone jokes made about his rotted corpse and maggots in the shroud linen, and housekeepers, etc... This thread was started so as to discuss the contention that the Shroud of Turin has been demonstrated to be worthy of consideration as Christs burial shroud.
I respect there are those who don't agree. That's why there is a poll affording the skeptic a voice. What I don't invite into this thread are Trolls who presume to apologize for their behavior after they've mocked members here who review the evidence with respect and afford their personal faith filled opinions.
And that's just how it is. I ignore such individuals. Because while they demonstrate they are worthy of prayer, they are not worthy of attention that feeds their behavior so that it continues as it has. There hasn't been one post in this thread that that individual has committed to print that shows someone with a sweet heart in this matter.
And this, with all respect to you my sister, is the last I'll say on the individual in question.
I'd really appreciate this thread returning to the topic at hand.
Thank you for your sharing your genuine thoughts on this matter. And for your understanding as to my point of view. God bless.@Scripture Bird JPT is a sweetheart once you get to know him. Mayhaps things got off on the "wrong foot". It is easy enough to misunderstand what someone has typed and their real intention. I have seen people flame off on each other because they misread each other's post and initially agreed with each other.
As for arguments? With over 40,000 Protestant denominations, alone, there are going to be doctrinal disagreements. When egos are forefront, things generally can be nasty. The nastiest ones involve packs with bullies. Best advice that I received here was to bring the HS to read and type posts. I also learned that you have to bring your love of God to any debate and remember that God loves the one you are disagreeing with just as much as you. It's been said about a zillion times before, but you can make any point justified by biblical authority when using sculpted, out of context and twisted scripture. If you go for the "heart" of scripture, you realize that understanding is clearer as is truth. I didn't really realize that there are no real contradictions in the Word when you look for the truth. In nasty arguments? I have found no one learns anything - not even how to avoid it in the future, most times. It is hard for me to believe that any other forums are any different, altho this is the only one I go to. And I have learned here and have gained great insight from some pretty marvelous people. And I learn much from civil debate, if only more people knew how to engage in it. [/quote]
I had no idea that The King was Italian.