The Remnant Church?

Nov 23, 2013
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I agree. However, the majority of the 33,000 denominations, at least, claim these things. They claim to follow God's Word, believe in the holy trinity, observe the festivals, and the teachers of each given church claim it was the Holy Spirit that told them it was the right denomination.

Who determines proper translation of scripture if they all claim they have it via the Holy Spirit?
interesting .. I just did the math on the 33,000 denominations within Protestantism ..
Luther, Zwingli and Calvin never agreed on anything ..
so now I understand why there are so many denominations in Protestantism ..
they each pick and choose a different Reformers views in one of the doctrines ..
so if you have 3 reformers with different views ..
and 6 main doctrines ..
that makes 18 different doctrines to choose from ..
making 18,564 different combinations of those 6 main doctrines possible .


Martin Luther 1483-1546, German Reformer, based in Wittenberg
Ulrich Zwingli 1484-1531, Swiss Reformer, based in Zurich
John Calvin 1509-1564, French Reformer, based in Geneva

Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were the “big three” of the Reformation, but others such as John Knox in Scotland, Martin Bucer of Strassburg, Philip Melanchthon in Germany (Luther’s associate and architect of the Augburg Confession) and Thomas Cranmer in England formed something of a “second string” of Reformers that nevertheless contributed significantly to the movement.

Luther, Zwingli and Calvin led what is sometimes called the Magisterial Reformation, so named because it used the civil authority of the magistrates to further its agenda. But there was also the Radical Reformation, which was rejected by the Magisterial Reformers no less than by the Catholic Church.

The Radical Reformation began in Zurich, in the early 1520s. In part, it was a response to Zwingli’s reforms, which the Radical Reformers thought insufficient. Zwingli disagreed, of course, and he dubbed the Radical Reformers Anabaptists (“rebaptizers”) because they insisted on the rebaptism of those baptized as infants.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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Fair questions. Scripture as an only source is indeed circular because the Christian experience is circular. The scripture says "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Our creator is our redeemer and our savior. He is also the author and inspiration for scripture. With that said, while it is the only source it is not the only instrument. However, the instruments are all tested against scripture. You find in many places of inspiration that it is used as the " plum line" to test all other things, including doctrine.

In regards to 1. Tim 3:15, the church is indeed the pillar of truth to a sin sick world. Hence the OP on the remnant church. But then do we conclude that the church (that is the true church) is the final arbiter of scripture? No no, what we find instead is that the true church is the propagator of the truth which has already been declared in scripture. But the moment the church organization deviate from that truth in doctrine and/or in deed, you find in scripture that the light leaves that church and God raises up another movement for his purpose (See Rev 2, and 3), just like he did with the Jews during Jesus ministry (Matt 23:38).
I'm not quite in agreement with this, but I think you very eloquently explained your position -- probably far better than I can explain mine.

To state that the Scriptures are all true, God-breathed teachings (2 Timothy 3:16) would be absolutely right. But for the scriptures to be the only source for God's Word, it would need to be stated in the Scriptures...and it isn't. This is what ultimately led to so many denominations. You are indeed right that our faith must lie in Christ, but He also left us a Church (in fact, we were left a Church first) as a means to offer ourselves to Him. The Church compiled the the scriptures into what we know today as the Bible. A Bible wasn't even a common household item until about the 16th century as they cost about 3 years wage at the time.

I think there's reason to believe it's both Church AND Scriptures, not either Church OR Scriptures
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Hbr 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

scripture itself refutes sola scriptura ..
the HS gives gifts of teaching for that very reason ..
He teach those, who then teach others ..
that is what the gift of teaching is ..
Paul says "not everyone has the gift of teaching do they ???

and without these, you have 33,000 denominations to prove scripture alone will be misinterpreted .. thus not the only source needed ..

this line is true ..
I think there's reason to believe it's both Church AND Scriptures, not either Church OR Scriptures
 
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Dec 5, 2013
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I'm not quite in agreement with this, but I think you very eloquently explained your position -- probably far better than I can explain mine.

To state that the Scriptures are all true, God-breathed teachings (2 Timothy 3:16) would be absolutely right. But for the scriptures to be the only source for God's Word, it would need to be stated in the Scriptures...and it isn't. This is what ultimately led to so many denominations. You are indeed right that our faith must lie in Christ, but He also left us a Church (in fact, we were left a Church first) as a means to offer ourselves to Him. The Church compiled the the scriptures into what we know today as the Bible. A Bible wasn't even a common household item until about the 16th century as they cost about 3 years wage at the time.

I think there's reason to believe it's both Church AND Scriptures, not either Church OR Scriptures

I suppose you can say the church birthed the scriptures beginning with Moses. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit working through Moses as you noted in 2 tim 3:16. But we cannot ignore in those early stages of church history in which scripture shows us that God first established Moses in the eyes of His people (Exo 3:14) before his writings became authoritative. Following this, laity, prophets and leaders, or what we today call the church, would become subject to whatever was previously accepted as canonical (Deu 31:26).

One example is found in 2 Kings 22 8-20. When Israel was ignorant of their sins and apostasy, they experienced a revival when Hilkiah the high priest stumbled upon the book of the law. Yet it was not a new miraculous revelation through the Holy Spirit "speaking through the church" that brought about this reformation, but it was a progressive rediscovery of what was already revealed.

Touching on your other point in regards to having many sects (denominations), this does not necessarily preclude a protestant denomination from being a valid contributor of light. Indeed, having many sects is nothing new to Christian or Jewish history. During new testament times, the Jews had the Samaritans, The Essenes (Josephus was of this sect), The Therapeutae, The Yahad, The Rechabites , The Zealots, etc.. Today, among those who practice Catholicity we have different sects--although Roman Catholicism for obvious reasons would never acknowledge them. But nevertheless we see a similar pattern to what we see in Protestantism, many of whom lay claim to apostolic succession.

But in protestantism, there are reasons why so many denominations exist. #1, In history, biblical reformation has always been progressive not instant. Therefore what we find in the reformation of the 16th and 17th centuries is a gradual coming into truth. With Luther, we see the biblical truth of saved by grace through faith not by works (Eph 2:8-9). In Calvanism we see faith with out works is dead. (James 2:17) Later the Baptist contributed to the movement in the doctrine of baptism by immersion typifying burial and ressurection (Romans 6:4) .

#2 Not all denominations were by Gods design. We must forget that there is a wiley foe the bible refers to as Satan. What better way to drown out the truth then to counterfeit it and muliplyy the counterfeit. And he does not stop there, he also tries to get the genuine to fall. This is the primary reason actually why scripture must be regarded as the only source and properly studied. Scripture is more consistent and cogent then many think, and if we come with a willing and open heart, God will make it plain.

God bless!
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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if scripture is the only source, then scripture will eventually self destruct through eisegesis ..
so there must be a mechanism in place to keep scripture from being distorted ..
which is those within the church given the gift of teaching by the HS to explain/teach the scriptures correctly ..
and there must be a mechanism in place to keep the teacher from being distorted ..
which is the Holy Spirit himself ..

thus God must play an active role or like a piece of abstract art, 100 people will get 100 impressions of what it means .. and that is not God's way .. because He Himself tells us, "we will live by each and every word from His mouth" .. not just the few we get right ..

what if you get the Gospel of Salvation wrong ???
say for instance you think you don't have to "endure to the end" to gain salvation ???
doctrine not affect salvation won't trip you up, but that will ..
but Lord Lord .. I never knew you ..
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I don't believe in reformation ..
I believe in revelation as progression ..
and revival as reinstating ..
all is linear ..
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I don't believe in reformation ..
I believe in revelation as progression ..
and revival as reinstating ..
all is linear ..
if you take a step back and look at God's plan ..
the Covenant of Law was a step backward ..
Abraham was deemed righteous by faith ..
so here comes Jesus and puts the covenant of faith in front of us ..
now we have a lot more data of God's plan, and a way to actually reach Him ..
for instance, Judaism was almost void of a coherent picture of the afterlife ..
and that was because it was useless to explain what was not yet available ..
so the Jews fell into apostasy and had revivals .. and fell into apostasy and had revivals ..
we as Christians now having a workable covenant, must make it work .. God expects us to no longer act like little kids who must be taken by the hand, but to take responsibility and do what we are suppose to on our own .. Paul voiced this when he said we should no longer be on milk only .. God will reveal to ANYONE if they listen .. we are the builders of His church because we are the church .. he doesn't desire sacrifice for sin, he desires compassion from us .. that is our offering .. and we should be "sinning no more" to begin with, like a young adult who doesn't need to be told to clean his room, brush his teeth, do his homework .. if you love God you already do what you are suppose to .. if you do not, then you do not love God .. and by what we do or don't do, we will be judged (1Pe 1:17) .. that is why faith without the works of the law of Christ is dead .. because you do not love God if you do not obey Him and you do not love God if you do not love others .. words are meaningless without action ..
if you do not live what you say you believe, then you really don't believe it ..
 
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Nov 29, 2013
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Christ gave us the gospels and the Apostles, and many disciples, the Bible mentions 70. There are so many more that spoke of Christ, that wrote of Christ, that evangelized the gospel that are just as great in proclaiming the glory of our God. Men like St. Clement, St. Jerome, St. Polycarp, and so many more early witnesses of the Apostles that added in the enrichment of our Lord's gospel in propagating with love and perseverance. We have a rich, colorful, incredibly full of life and love church, not bound to laws of works but free to be in love with our Lord and letting the Holy Spirit fill our heart.

i found this wonderful writing, here is the link: http://orthodoxyinfo.org/aposfath.htm

CALLED FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT : THE WRITINGS OF THE DISCIPLES OF THE APOSTLES
by Father Panagiotes Carras

It gives a story of those that followed the Apostles, their writing, their life, their importance to the propagation of the gospels and how they built the church of Christ, subsequent to the Apostles.

The Bible is the written Holy Word of God/Christ, but there is more, and many of these that followed the Apostles also gave their lives for the Word ...

"The writings of the disciples of the Apostles are of a pastoral character seeking to guide their readers along the Apostolic path. For this reason they are closely related in content and style to the Epistles of the Apostles. Although they were authored in different regions of the Roman Empire, such as Rome, Syria and Asia Minor, nevertheless they present a unity in belief. Common to all these writings is their eschatological character. The second coming of Christ is regarded as imminent and the faithful had to live their lives in preparation for the Day of the Lord. On the other hand, the memory of the person of our Lord and Saviour is still vivid in their minds. These authors convey the belief that they are awaiting the return of the Lord Who until recently was with them." ...