The Soul After Death

[Kevin]

Sti

The first thing to clarify is that "Sleep" is by its very definition a period of unawareness, a period of non-conciousness. Jesus merely has to use the word for sleep for sleep IS the state of not being concious or aware. Jesus refers to physical (flesh and blood) death as "Sleep" in John 11:11-14 when speaking of Lazarus (the real one). Note He did not say Lazarus is resting in Abraham's Bosom, He said he "sleepeth". Because it confused the disciples He had to explain that He means Lazarus was dead. Nor did He say that the BODY of Lazarus sleepeth but that LAZARUS himself sleepeth. Nothing in this passage declares Jesus was speaking of ONLY the body of Lazarus. Such a claim is not supported by the scripture.

As to 1 Thess this is not knowledge Paul could have EXCEPT that Christ revealed it to him. Considering Peter also referred to those who had died (eg King David) as being asleep it is safe to infer that ALL the apostles were conveying what Jesus had taught them, which is that those who die in the flesh are asleep until resurrection. NOTE it is referring to the period between physical (flesh and blood) death and resurrection, not the period AFTER resurrection. Why that is important to keep in mind will hopefully become clearer in a minute.

Firstly it should be noted that "a certain rich man" does NOT get a name. Strange ommission to name one but not the other especially as the other just happens to share the same name as somebody Jesus DID bring back from the dead. Even more sigificantly "a certain rich man" also features in the parable at Luke 12:16 and Luke 16:1. Indeed the parable at Luke 16:1 begins with the exact same words "There was a certain rich man ..."

But tell me where in the Bible does it declare that a parable shall not contain any proper names?? Jesus told many parables that were not recorded. By what authority do you declare that NONE of the parables told by Jesus, recorded AND UNRECORDED contained proper names EXCEPT this one?

Firstly lets deal with the "multitude". John does not see these until the 6th seal is broken - not before. Therefore there is a period of time when the multitude are NOT there, and then they are ALL there. But note what the elder says about them (Rev 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Here he is telling John that THIS multitude are NOT in the Bosom of Abraham but are WITH Christ and the Lord serving them. BUT we know from 1 Thess that those who sleep in Christ and those still alive only join Christ and be with Him AT HIS COMING, to be with Him for ever more. We also know from John 14:3 that Christ Himself declared that He will RETURN to take us to be with Him, where He is. This accords with 1 Thess 4 (and 1 Cor 15:51-52) perfectly. Therefore contrary to your assertion, Revelation places the multitude in Heaven AFTER Christ returns and the "rapture"/resurrection, not before. Nor does it place them in the "bosom of Abraham". Indeed this "bosom of Abraham" is mentioned in one place ONLY in the entire Bible. And that is in the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus.

Now about those souls UNDER THE ALTAR (not in the Bosom of Abraham). We note these are noticed after the 5th seal but before the 6th seal. We also note they are NOT in the Bosom of Abraham. Something else we note is they are not EVERYBODY who has died in Christ but those who have been KILLED for their testimony. And they are waiting for those who will be LIKEWISE KILLED for their testimony. I note the Darby Literal translation says "until both their fellow-bondmen and their brethren, who were about to be killed as they, should be fulfilled." (Young's Literal Translation has "who are about to be killed -- even as they. ")
These are a special preordained group awaiting a special preordained time which requires they all be killed. THIS section of Revelation gives no indication of why this special group who are killed in a certain way are waiting. HOWEVER we do note from REV 20 that there is indeed a special group who are beheaded for their testimony of Christ who are raised in a special limited RESURRECTION before anybody else (the first resurrection) to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. There is nothing that prevents those under the altar from being this very same group awaiting those who are to shortly be beheaded and so join them.

As ONLY those beheaded for Christ are raised at that time and not everybody who has died in Christ and nobody else is raised until AFTER the 1,000 years are finished the Bible declares this 1,000 years occurs BEFORE His coming and this special limited resurrection BEFORE the "rapture".

But the bottom line is still that both Jesus and the Apostles declare as ASLEEP those who have died in Christ before He returns (or are otherwise resurrected) and both the living and the dead in Christ are raised to join with Him for the journey to the NEW Earth (the place He has prepared and returns to take us there).

Still waiting for the scriptures quoting Jesus concerning soul sleep. Just plain scriptures not theology or philosophy. Thanks

 

[mistmann]

Sti
Still waiting for the scriptures quoting Jesus concerning soul sleep. Just plain scriptures not theology or philosophy. Thanks

From what I see posted on this thread the term "soul sleep" appears to be a reference to a certain teaching/doctrine that also involves a way of mitigating sin after death. This is not what Jesus or the Apostles were inferring, merely that those who die in the flesh sleep until resurrection. So I will avoid the term so as to avoid confusion.

But your question infers that Jesus is NOT speaking of the soul when He speaks of sleeping. THAT is something you have neither established nor proven. I have provided the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the dead as sleeping and also where HIS Apostles do the same. Now I will show you why both He and the Apostles can ONLY be speaking of the soul and not merely of the flesh.

Firstly we note from the following passages that while the soul can live without the flesh the flesh cannot live without the soul:-

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We note also from many places in the Bible AND as a fact of reality (a fact those in the Bible are also very familiar with) that dead bodies do not sleep but experience, as the Bible puts it "corruption". They decompose, seperate back into their elementary components, become once again the dust of the Earth from which they are made. In short they cease to be bodies.

Both Jesus and His Apostles readily aknowledged that ALL bodies after death (except that of Jesus Himself) experience "corruption" and return to dust.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Dead BODIES do not sleep, they return to the dust of the earth from which they are made.

Another proof.

Consider this well known passage:-

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The story of the rich man and the beggar requires that they have already been judged (how else can it be determined who is sent to where except that their lives be judged). BUT we know from many places in the Bible, including the above passage, that the judgement does not occur UNTIL Christ returns and all are raised to be judged. ONLY THEN are the Books opened and all are judged from what lies therein. But as the passage above declares it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but AFTER this THE JUDGEMENT.

Those who have died either in Christ or in their sins have died in our past. BUT the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement are still in our future. Those who have died have been neither resurrected NOR judged. How then can they have been seperated and rewarded or punished accordingly??

Rather it is as Jesus and the Apostles declared many times -they SLEEP until the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement.

 

[Major]

From what I see posted on this thread the term "soul sleep" appears to be a reference to a certain teaching/doctrine that also involves a way of mitigating sin after death. This is not what Jesus or the Apostles were inferring, merely that those who die in the flesh sleep until resurrection. So I will avoid the term so as to avoid confusion.

But your question infers that Jesus is NOT speaking of the soul when He speaks of sleeping. THAT is something you have neither established nor proven. I have provided the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the dead as sleeping and also where HIS Apostles do the same. Now I will show you why both He and the Apostles can ONLY be speaking of the soul and not merely of the flesh.

Firstly we note from the following passages that while the soul can live without the flesh the flesh cannot live without the soul:-

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We note also from many places in the Bible AND as a fact of reality (a fact those in the Bible are also very familiar with) that dead bodies do not sleep but experience, as the Bible puts it "corruption". They decompose, seperate back into their elementary components, become once again the dust of the Earth from which they are made. In short they cease to be bodies.

Both Jesus and His Apostles readily aknowledged that ALL bodies after death (except that of Jesus Himself) experience "corruption" and return to dust.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Dead BODIES do not sleep, they return to the dust of the earth from which they are made.

Another proof.

Consider this well known passage:-

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The story of the rich man and the beggar requires that they have already been judged (how else can it be determined who is sent to where except that their lives be judged). BUT we know from many places in the Bible, including the above passage, that the judgement does not occur UNTIL Christ returns and all are raised to be judged. ONLY THEN are the Books opened and all are judged from what lies therein. But as the passage above declares it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but AFTER this THE JUDGEMENT.

Those who have died either in Christ or in their sins have died in our past. BUT the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement are still in our future. Those who have died have been neither resurrected NOR judged. How then can they have been seperated and rewarded or punished accordingly??

Rather it is as Jesus and the Apostles declared many times -they SLEEP until the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement.

James 2:26 IMO can not ne used to sustain your thinking. It is a comparitive statement whose focus is on faith and works not soul sleep/death.

The dead do not do anything, the same being analogous with trust/faith without works. But is this not equivalent to the proposition that faith without works is not "real faith"? Indeed no. Is a dead body no longer a body? Is a dead body not real? Is a dead body different in nature from a living body? Is a single characteristic of a body lost by the mere fact of death? Thus, a faith that is genuine enough in itself, when dead, is not essentially different. Thus, there is no reason to make this place an excuse for affirming that those "without works" had the wrong kind of faith. The most marvelous body that ever lived may be compared with the most marvelous faith that ever existed; but if that marvelous faith is without works, it then has the same status as a dead corpse.
Before leaving this verse, it should be noted that the KJV has a better rendition of it, "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead, being alone."

Matt.10:28 IMO will not work for you either.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".

Some who believe in the annilhilation of the wicked use this verse to prove their thinking---but Jesus did not say that He would KILL the soul. He uses the word "destroy" and this word does NOT mean annililation but it means only RUIN, DESTRUCTION AND AN ETERNAL DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. The soul/spirit will never die. It is an eternal being.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Yep. Dead is dead. The body returns to the earth.

The benefit of a physical body is that it can die! This may sound strange, but it is exactly this fact that makes man able to become immortal sons of God! Men can die and be resurrected, following the pattern set by Christ, receiving eternal life and the rewards of His Kingdom. It is our righteous living in the flesh through the grace of God that qualifies us for this glorious potential.

​

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It is appointed for men to die once." But there is another key word here besides the word "appointed," namely the word "once." This means that you can
stop dreaming right now about reincarnation. We are not coming back to die again. We are not coming back in any form at all. The point of the word
"once" here is to stress the finality of death. We die once. And that is the end of our experience of earthly dying.

Now all of this should have a profound effect on us. Samuel Johnson said, in 1777, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a
fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully" (Boswell’s Life of Johnson,Sept. 19, 1777). Moses put it like this in Psalm 90:12..........................................
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get a heart of wisdom."

 

[Kevin]

From what I see posted on this thread the term "soul sleep" appears to be a reference to a certain teaching/doctrine that also involves a way of mitigating sin after death. This is not what Jesus or the Apostles were inferring, merely that those who die in the flesh sleep until resurrection. So I will avoid the term so as to avoid confusion.

But your question infers that Jesus is NOT speaking of the soul when He speaks of sleeping. THAT is something you have neither established nor proven. I have provided the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the dead as sleeping and also where HIS Apostles do the same. Now I will show you why both He and the Apostles can ONLY be speaking of the soul and not merely of the flesh.

Firstly we note from the following passages that while the soul can live without the flesh the flesh cannot live without the soul:-

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We note also from many places in the Bible AND as a fact of reality (a fact those in the Bible are also very familiar with) that dead bodies do not sleep but experience, as the Bible puts it "corruption". They decompose, seperate back into their elementary components, become once again the dust of the Earth from which they are made. In short they cease to be bodies.

Both Jesus and His Apostles readily aknowledged that ALL bodies after death (except that of Jesus Himself) experience "corruption" and return to dust.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Dead BODIES do not sleep, they return to the dust of the earth from which they are made.

Another proof.

Consider this well known passage:-

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The story of the rich man and the beggar requires that they have already been judged (how else can it be determined who is sent to where except that their lives be judged). BUT we know from many places in the Bible, including the above passage, that the judgement does not occur UNTIL Christ returns and all are raised to be judged. ONLY THEN are the Books opened and all are judged from what lies therein. But as the passage above declares it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but AFTER this THE JUDGEMENT.

Those who have died either in Christ or in their sins have died in our past. BUT the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement are still in our future. Those who have died have been neither resurrected NOR judged. How then can they have been seperated and rewarded or punished accordingly??

Rather it is as Jesus and the Apostles declared many times -they SLEEP until the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgement.

You referred to Jesus specifically talking about soul sleep. All the scripture you have presented here is out of context and subject to interpretation. I am still waiting for the exact word of Jesus teaching about soul sleep - usually the words of Jesus are printed in red in the bible.

 

[mistmann]

James 2:26 IMO can not ne used to sustain your thinking. It is a comparitive statement whose focus is on faith and works not soul sleep/death.

The dead do not do anything, the same being analogous with trust/faith without works. But is this not equivalent to the proposition that faith without works is not "real faith"? Indeed no. Is a dead body no longer a body? Is a dead body not real? Is a dead body different in nature from a living body? Is a single characteristic of a body lost by the mere fact of death? Thus, a faith that is genuine enough in itself, when dead, is not essentially different. Thus, there is no reason to make this place an excuse for affirming that those "without works" had the wrong kind of faith. The most marvelous body that ever lived may be compared with the most marvelous faith that ever existed; but if that marvelous faith is without works, it then has the same status as a dead corpse.
Before leaving this verse, it should be noted that the KJV has a better rendition of it, "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead, being alone."

Matt.10:28 IMO will not work for you either.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".

Some who believe in the annilhilation of the wicked use this verse to prove their thinking---but Jesus did not say that He would KILL the soul. He uses the word "destroy" and this word does NOT mean annililation but it means only RUIN, DESTRUCTION AND AN ETERNAL DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. The soul/spirit will never die. It is an eternal being.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Yep. Dead is dead. The body returns to the earth.

The benefit of a physical body is that it can die! This may sound strange, but it is exactly this fact that makes man able to become immortal sons of God! Men can die and be resurrected, following the pattern set by Christ, receiving eternal life and the rewards of His Kingdom. It is our righteous living in the flesh through the grace of God that qualifies us for this glorious potential.​

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It is appointed for men to die once." But there is another key word here besides the word "appointed," namely the word "once." This means that you can
stop dreaming right now about reincarnation. We are not coming back to die again. We are not coming back in any form at all. The point of the word
"once" here is to stress the finality of death. We die once. And that is the end of our experience of earthly dying.

Now all of this should have a profound effect on us. Samuel Johnson said, in 1777, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a
fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully" (Boswell’s Life of Johnson,Sept. 19, 1777). Moses put it like this in Psalm 90:12..........................................
"So teach us to number our days, that we may get a heart of wisdom."

Major, you seem to be going off on several irrelevant tangents here. My discussion with Kevin is about his unsubstantiated claim that in John 11:11 Jesus is speaking of the body only sleeping and not the soul, not about faith and works, etc.. The relevant point of James 2:26 is the declaration (as truth) that the body without the spirit/soul is dead while Matt 10:28 declares (as truth) that the soul can live without the body. In other words it is the soul that is the person, the body is merely a vehicle in which it resides. Hence reference to a PERSON is reference to their soul. Reference to the body of a person is reference to their body. Jesus did not say the BODY of Lazarus sleepeth, He said LAZARUS sleepeth. A body without the soul does not sleep, it reverts to the dust of the earth from which it is made. THAT is the relevant point of Gen 3:19.

The relevance of Heb 9:27-28 is that the judgement comes AFTER the return of Jesus and the resurrection, not before. HOWEVER the story of the rich man and the beggar requires that judgement has already been made. This means it is NOT a real life story but a parable for the judgement (and SUBSEQUENT seperation) is still in our future but those who have died are in our past and DISTANT past. Hence there is a considerable gap between death of the flesh and judgement of the soul.

 

[mistmann]

You referred to Jesus specifically talking about soul sleep. All the scripture you have presented here is out of context and subject to interpretation. I am still waiting for the exact word of Jesus teaching about soul sleep - usually the words of Jesus are printed in red in the bible.

Kevin, if you want this to be a serious exploration of Biblical truth there are a couple of things you are going to have to do. At the moment you are merely insisting repeatedly that I answer an ill-defined question based on an unfounded and unproven assumption.

The first thing you are going to have to do is define exactly what YOU mean by the term "soul sleep". The second thing you are going to have to do is explain by what BIBLICAL authority (not church or theological authority) you declare the story of the rich man and the beggar to be a real account and not a parable (that it uses the name of Lasarus and the name of Abraham will not cut it as has already been shown).

The third thing you will have to do is provide the BIBLICAL authority (other than the rich man, beggar man story which has not been established as a real life scenerio) by which YOU claim Jesus was NOT talking about the soul of Lazarus but his body only.

A reasonable viewer will note I have already made a conclusive case against your claims by way of Biblical authority. Until you do the above there is nowhere else for this conversation to go.

 

[Major]

Major, you seem to be going off on several irrelevant tangents here. My discussion with Kevin is about his unsubstantiated claim that in John 11:11 Jesus is speaking of the body only sleeping and not the soul, not about faith and works, etc.. The relevant point of James 2:26 is the declaration (as truth) that the body without the spirit/soul is dead while Matt 10:28 declares (as truth) that the soul can live without the body. In other words it is the soul that is the person, the body is merely a vehicle in which it resides. Hence reference to a PERSON is reference to their soul. Reference to the body of a person is reference to their body. Jesus did not say the BODY of Lazarus sleepeth, He said LAZARUS sleepeth. A body without the soul does not sleep, it reverts to the dust of the earth from which it is made. THAT is the relevant point of Gen 3:19.

The relevance of Heb 9:27-28 is that the judgement comes AFTER the return of Jesus and the resurrection, not before. HOWEVER the story of the rich man and the beggar requires that judgement has already been made. This means it is NOT a real life story but a parable for the judgement (and SUBSEQUENT seperation) is still in our future but those who have died are in our past and DISTANT past. Hence there is a considerable gap between death of the flesh and judgement of the soul.

Nope...........I am right on target!

I do agree that the spirit/soul is eternal and does not die just as you do. I simply stated that the verses you used do not confirm what we are saying.

Matt. 10:28= FEAR GOD!

Someone once asked Cromwell why he was such a brave man. He told them........."I have learned that when you fear God, you do not have any man to fear."

John 11:11 = The disciples did not understand what Jesus meant when He said that Lazarus was sleeping.
As we see here on this thread some do not today either. SLEEP is for the BODY never for the soul.
Death means seperation. The body of the believer sleeps in the grave but the soul goes to be with the Lord.

2 Corth. 5:8 is my Biblical authority..........
"To be present with the Lord is to be absent from the body"

The believer goes immediatly to be with the Lord but the body "sleeps" until the day of resurrection when it will be raised.

Your comment was.......
"HOWEVER the story of the rich man and the beggar requires that judgement has already been made. This means it is NOT a real life story but a parable for the judgement ".

I agree with the comment that "Judgment has already been made", but of course I disagree that the story is a parabel as I have already commented on.

The truth is that DEATH brings judgment. When a person dies, stops living, stops breathing....what ever we want to use to define the end of living, when that happens the CHOICE has been made by the individual while he was alive. His choice or non-choice for the Lord Jesus while living has sealed his fate eternally my dear brother in Christ.

Hebrews 9:27-28 confirms this. If we understand that the believers soul goes immediatly to be with God at death, then that means the UN-believers soul goes to be with the devil in hell upon his death and that is the seperation I speak of.

 

[Kevin]

Kevin, if you want this to be a serious exploration of Biblical truth there are a couple of things you are going to have to do. At the moment you are merely insisting repeatedly that I answer an ill-defined question based on an unfounded and unproven assumption.

The first thing you are going to have to do is define exactly what YOU mean by the term "soul sleep". The second thing you are going to have to do is explain by what BIBLICAL authority (not church or theological authority) you declare the story of the rich man and the beggar to be a real account and not a parable (that it uses the name of Lasarus and the name of Abraham will not cut it as has already been shown).

The third thing you will have to do is provide the BIBLICAL authority (other than the rich man, beggar man story which has not been established as a real life scenerio) by which YOU claim Jesus was NOT talking about the soul of Lazarus but his body only.

A reasonable viewer will note I have already made a conclusive case against your claims by way of Biblical authority. Until you do the above there is nowhere else for this conversation to go.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never stated Jesus was not talking about the soul of Lazarus - I stated that the story was not a parable nothing more nothing less. Please do no read into things people did not state. You seem to be very good at diverting the actual question. I am not going to discuss this any more. You made a statement that Jesus specifically taught about soul sleep and you cannot come up with any direct scripture because simply there is NONE. You made a statement that was false end of story.

 

[mistmann]

Nope...........I am right on target!

I do agree that the spirit/soul is eternal and does not die just as you do. I simply stated that the verses you used do not confirm what we are saying.

Matt. 10:28= FEAR GOD!

Someone once asked Cromwell why he was such a brave man. He told them........."I have learned that when you fear God, you do not have any man to fear."

But the RELEVANT point of Matt 10:28 (to THIS discussion) is that even though the (flesh and blood) body may be killed by man or Satan the soul does not die. HOWEVER without the soul the body not only dies but returns to the dust from which it comes. Those of Biblical times knew full well that dead bodies do not sleep but rather that not long after death they "fall apart" and cease to be bodies.

They suffer "corruption" which in the Greek is "diaphthora"
(From Strong's)
1) "corruption, destruction"
2) "in the NT that destruction which is effected by the decay of the body after death"

In other words after death the body is DESTROYED.

It is the PERSON, not the body, that sleeps.

John 11:11 = The disciples did not understand what Jesus meant when He said that Lazarus was sleeping.
As we see here on this thread some do not today either. SLEEP is for the BODY never for the soul.
Death means seperation. The body of the believer sleeps in the grave but the soul goes to be with the Lord.

2 Corth. 5:8 is my Biblical authority..........
"To be present with the Lord is to be absent from the body"

The believer goes immediatly to be with the Lord but the body "sleeps" until the day of resurrection when it will be raised.

You will find the Bible declares in many places that after death the body suffers "CORRUPTION", even the body of King David. That is it suffers DESTRUCTION, not sleep. Your assertion that sleep is for the body and never for the soul is actually contrary to what the Bible declares.

I note you claim 2 Cor 5:8 as your Biblical authority, HOWEVER you have seriously misquoted it. It does not, as you claim, say "To be present with the Lord is to be absent from the body". What it actually says (correctly AND in full context) is:-

2 Cor 5:6-10 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
It is NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, a declaration that to be present with the Lord is to be absent from the body. It is the expression of a PREFERENCE to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. A VERY different thing altogether and does not provide any support for your claim.

Your comment was.......
"HOWEVER the story of the rich man and the beggar requires that judgement has already been made. This means it is NOT a real life story but a parable for the judgement ".

I agree with the comment that "Judgment has already been made", but of course I disagree that the story is a parabel as I have already commented on.

The truth is that DEATH brings judgment. When a person dies, stops living, stops breathing....what ever we want to use to define the end of living, when that happens the CHOICE has been made by the individual while he was alive. His choice or non-choice for the Lord Jesus while living has sealed his fate eternally my dear brother in Christ.

That judgement has already been made in the parable is what confirms it to be a parable for contrary to your assertion the Bible declares that THE judgement comes not with Death but with the RESURRECTION. And the resurrection does not happen until Christ returns:-

2 Tim 4: 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Man IS judged according to what he has done BEFORE death (for he cannot DO anything after it), BUT (as shown above) the Bible tells us THAT judgement is made by Christ at His second coming when He comes to judge BOTH the living and the (resurrected) dead. It also tells us (as also shown previously) that those who die in Christ before He comes SLEEP awaiting resurrection

Hebrews 9:27-28 confirms this. If we understand that the believers soul goes immediatly to be with God at death, then that means the UN-believers soul goes to be with the devil in hell upon his death and that is the seperation I speak of.

BUT you cannot "understand that the believers soul goes immediatly to be with God at death" because as has been thoroughly pointed out several times THAT is contrary to the word of God

 

[Kevin]

I should perhaps clarify here that the "sleep" the Bible (and specifically Jesus Himself) speaks of is a period of what can perhaps be best described as "non-awareness" between the death in the flesh and the resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

For clarity - this is what you said.

 

[Panda]

Seriously guys? DO you even realize how your posts back and forth like this come across? Seriously, I read this and I'm forced to assume that everyone on the planet that doesn't agree with your very particular and exacting interpretation of every single word in every single verse in Scripture is a complete heretic and sentenced to spend an eternity in Hell. And I KNOW BETTER!!! What about all the people who come to fellowship as new Christians and read this? Are they just ants running around on the giant's playground? For the sake of all that is good, if it were possible to simply debate everyone into Heaven, then we could just gather up the greatest minds in the world and we all follow whoever wins. This is ridiculous. Some of these nitpicking issues you guys go after in these little debates are nothing but distractions that have been debated around the world for 10,000 years, and for some reason you seem to think that you can resolve this all here? It's becoming painfully obvious why the site hasn't felt very friendly for the last year. Some people just don't seem to know how to be friendly, and instead settle for passive aggressiveness. GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!!

 

[Panda]

On second thought, this conversation ends now. There is nothing to be gained by continuing this insanity. Do NOT rehash this topic elsewhere, or I will lock it and probably give you an automatic time-out for however long it takes for me to forget why I pushed the ban button.